AC Hiring question from a Jazzer
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Lost in Saigon
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After reading the link, I gather that after the CIRB board’s decision ALPA dropped or put on hold it’s actions. Is this why there is a lawsuit against ACPA? and if the CIRB board decided against the merged seniority list, why would the courts change the motion. Plus lets just say the courts did favor the AO bunch, then what? This agreement is over ten years old, how would it ever be implemented now? What is the purpose of the lawsuit.
Here is my understanding of what happened. Anyone please feel free to correct any errors or omissions on my part.
The lawsuit predates the above CIRB decision and relates to a different (but related) matter.
The Connector and Air Canada Pilots both belonged to CALPA. (Canadian version of ALPA). Both sides wanted a single list to prevent the parent company from "whipsawing" or playing one group against the other. They agreed to merge the lists but could never agree on what was fair.
They decided to have an internal CALPA arbitration to solve the issue. The CIRB was never involved in this process. The CALPA appointed Arbitrator (Pichet) decided that the list should be merged so that the Connector pilots got DOH, but only into approx the bottom 243 numbers. (roughly the number that were laid off). He gave various reasons to support his decisoion. One reason was that there was an overlap in the types of aircraft both sides were flying.(the BAE146 was a jet carrying as many or more passengers than a DC-9)
The Air Canada pilots found this unacceptable and also had longstanding problems with the internal structure of CALPA. The Air Canada pilots decided to quit CALPA and form their own association. Because the arbitration was an internal CALPA decision, they were were no longer bound by it.
With the pullout of Air Canada, CALPA was disbanded, and all the others joined ALPA.
The lawsuit is by some Air Ontario pilots who are suing for lost wages because the Air Canada pilots did not abide by the CALPA arbitration.
Later on, Common Empolyer was filed between the two sides but, as you see in the decision above, it was not successful. The CIRB said that the Connector Pilots career expectations were not compromised by having two lists.
Had the Common Empolyer been successful, they would have had to re-open the seniority issue again.
Personally, I think that it is quite obvious that having two lists, and two groups, both sides are compromised at one time or another.
Maybe it is time to try Common Employer again...........
Here is my understanding of what happened. Anyone please feel free to correct any errors or omissions on my part.
The lawsuit predates the above CIRB decision and relates to a different (but related) matter.
The Connector and Air Canada Pilots both belonged to CALPA. (Canadian version of ALPA). Both sides wanted a single list to prevent the parent company from "whipsawing" or playing one group against the other. They agreed to merge the lists but could never agree on what was fair.
They decided to have an internal CALPA arbitration to solve the issue. The CIRB was never involved in this process. The CALPA appointed Arbitrator (Pichet) decided that the list should be merged so that the Connector pilots got DOH, but only into approx the bottom 243 numbers. (roughly the number that were laid off). He gave various reasons to support his decisoion. One reason was that there was an overlap in the types of aircraft both sides were flying.(the BAE146 was a jet carrying as many or more passengers than a DC-9)
The Air Canada pilots found this unacceptable and also had longstanding problems with the internal structure of CALPA. The Air Canada pilots decided to quit CALPA and form their own association. Because the arbitration was an internal CALPA decision, they were were no longer bound by it.
With the pullout of Air Canada, CALPA was disbanded, and all the others joined ALPA.
The lawsuit is by some Air Ontario pilots who are suing for lost wages because the Air Canada pilots did not abide by the CALPA arbitration.
Later on, Common Empolyer was filed between the two sides but, as you see in the decision above, it was not successful. The CIRB said that the Connector Pilots career expectations were not compromised by having two lists.
Had the Common Empolyer been successful, they would have had to re-open the seniority issue again.
Personally, I think that it is quite obvious that having two lists, and two groups, both sides are compromised at one time or another.
Maybe it is time to try Common Employer again...........
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Martin Tamme
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Please note, Madame Pineau did rule that Air Canada was a common employer to both Air Canada and Connector Pilots. However, as stated above, the Connector Pilots were not compromised by having two lists.
In other words, there would be a merging of the lists if either group can show harm. LOU 18 is a safeguard to ensure that the Jazz Pilots come to no harm. Air Canada will never cancel LOU 18, because having the pilots under one umbrella is detrimental to its business.
This brings up another point: The Pineau Decision was not restricted solely to the Connector pilots; if the Air Canada pilots could show harm, then the lists would be merged. This almost happened in the fall of 2004.
Following the exit of CCAA, Air Canada demanded more concessions from ACPA in October 2004. Air Canada wanted to increase the seating capacity for the CRJ 705s to 75 seats. Not to be outdone, Air Canada also included not paying EMJ pilots their pre-diems. Air Canada did not order the EMJ with ovens, as such EMJ crews would only get cold meals. In accordance with the Collective Agreement, Air Canada would have to provide pre-diems whenever hot meals are not boarded. Air Canada did not want to pay the pre-diems.
Although both items were in violation of the newly signed Collective Agreement (signed just one month prior), Air Canada threatened ACPA that if they did not relent, that they would give the EMJs to Jazz.
The Air Canada pilots were contemplating going to the CIRB if the Company proceeded with its threat. Air Canada pilots could show that they were being harmed. This would have forced the merging of the two pilot groups.
Lordon's Decision 183 set the precedent for merging 2 lists: Likes with Likes. In other words, the 25 Air Canada CRJs would be merged with the 13 Jazz CRJs at the time. However, the Jazz status pay system would have muddied the waters, since Dash-8 pilots were being paid the same as CRJ pilots.
This caused a lot of discussion among the Air Canada pilots -we hadn't even finished the merger between the OAC & OCP, and now we would be embarking on another merger, not knowing where the status pay system fit into the definition of 'likes with likes'.
The MEC decided to put the issue to a vote and let the membership decide. Over 80% of the membership decided to give Air Canada another concession rather than risk another merger of 2 lists.
That's why Jazz gets to fly around with 75 seats and the EMJ crews are given no hot meals and no expenses.
P.S. Personally, I would have called Air Canada's bluff.
In other words, there would be a merging of the lists if either group can show harm. LOU 18 is a safeguard to ensure that the Jazz Pilots come to no harm. Air Canada will never cancel LOU 18, because having the pilots under one umbrella is detrimental to its business.
This brings up another point: The Pineau Decision was not restricted solely to the Connector pilots; if the Air Canada pilots could show harm, then the lists would be merged. This almost happened in the fall of 2004.
Following the exit of CCAA, Air Canada demanded more concessions from ACPA in October 2004. Air Canada wanted to increase the seating capacity for the CRJ 705s to 75 seats. Not to be outdone, Air Canada also included not paying EMJ pilots their pre-diems. Air Canada did not order the EMJ with ovens, as such EMJ crews would only get cold meals. In accordance with the Collective Agreement, Air Canada would have to provide pre-diems whenever hot meals are not boarded. Air Canada did not want to pay the pre-diems.
Although both items were in violation of the newly signed Collective Agreement (signed just one month prior), Air Canada threatened ACPA that if they did not relent, that they would give the EMJs to Jazz.
The Air Canada pilots were contemplating going to the CIRB if the Company proceeded with its threat. Air Canada pilots could show that they were being harmed. This would have forced the merging of the two pilot groups.
Lordon's Decision 183 set the precedent for merging 2 lists: Likes with Likes. In other words, the 25 Air Canada CRJs would be merged with the 13 Jazz CRJs at the time. However, the Jazz status pay system would have muddied the waters, since Dash-8 pilots were being paid the same as CRJ pilots.
This caused a lot of discussion among the Air Canada pilots -we hadn't even finished the merger between the OAC & OCP, and now we would be embarking on another merger, not knowing where the status pay system fit into the definition of 'likes with likes'.
The MEC decided to put the issue to a vote and let the membership decide. Over 80% of the membership decided to give Air Canada another concession rather than risk another merger of 2 lists.
That's why Jazz gets to fly around with 75 seats and the EMJ crews are given no hot meals and no expenses.
P.S. Personally, I would have called Air Canada's bluff.
Last edited by Martin Tamme on Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin Tamme
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tonysoprano
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Martin Tamme
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Only if you are a Flight Attendant (make $1,000+ a month)uncleron wrote:So Emb pilots don't get per diems???
The EMJ pilots do not get per diems, but rather the Company will board a cold snack as opposed to a hot meal for them.
P.S. For those who have access to the ACPA site, the info is posted under EXECUTIVE, MEC, MEC Chair Infoline - November 18, 2004
So a Jazz guy gets to bypass the 2 years flat pay and be protected on 2 lists.The Jazz guys that did get hired have to take the 2 years flat pay.How will they come in on any equipment other than what is in PG?or will they they just bypass that as well?Protecting a seniority number is one thing but all the rest of this stuff , if true, is BS.
WF9F
WF9F
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Lost in Saigon
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JAZZ guys also do 2 years of flat pay just like everyone else.
The difference is they have a higher payrate for those 2 years. Even better is the fact that they can carry up to 4 years credit for pay so many of them start the third year at level 7 pay.
You do get perdiems on the EMJ. But as on any aircraft at Air Canada, when they board a crew meal for you, you are NOT paid.
EMJ's have no ovens so you don't get a hot meal. On any other aircraft you would be able to claim a meal perdiem if there was not a hotmeal.
BUT, ACPA agreed to cold meals as one of the many concessions they have been asked to take recently.
The kicker is that CUPE did not agree, so F/A's get to claim full meals during their duty day.
On the layover at the hotel you get to claim the normal meal allowances.
The difference is they have a higher payrate for those 2 years. Even better is the fact that they can carry up to 4 years credit for pay so many of them start the third year at level 7 pay.
You do get perdiems on the EMJ. But as on any aircraft at Air Canada, when they board a crew meal for you, you are NOT paid.
EMJ's have no ovens so you don't get a hot meal. On any other aircraft you would be able to claim a meal perdiem if there was not a hotmeal.
BUT, ACPA agreed to cold meals as one of the many concessions they have been asked to take recently.
The kicker is that CUPE did not agree, so F/A's get to claim full meals during their duty day.
On the layover at the hotel you get to claim the normal meal allowances.
Last edited by Lost in Saigon on Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jaques Strappe
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Martin Tamme wrote:Only if you are a Flight Attendant (make $1,000+ a month)uncleron wrote:So Emb pilots don't get per diems???
The EMJ pilots do not get per diems, but rather the Company will board a cold snack as opposed to a hot meal for them.
P.S. For those who have access to the ACPA site, the info is posted under EXECUTIVE, MEC, MEC Chair Infoline - November 18, 2004
I have to call B.S on that one. As an Embraer pilot, I do get per diem unless the company boards a meal for me. Also, the cold meals are much nicer and healthier than any hot meal I have ever had on the 767 and last month per diem was 700 bucks.
Standby for new atis message
WF9F wrote:
1. No they do not bypass the 2 year flat pay. They are on it just like the OTS.
2. There is no protection. You have to quit Jazz to go to mainline. If you flunk out, you are jobless just like the OTSer would be.
I can't for the life of me figure out why you piss and moan about this so much WF9f. When you get hired OTS, you get exactly what the contract says you should. If you chose to come OTS and not through the regionals, it is no one's fault but your own. LOU 18 is no industry secret. My guess is you were told by someone at AC, maybe a dad, uuncle of friend of the family to avoid the regionals and got OTS. Well, you made your bed, lay in it.
This isn't a case of you having somthing taken away, it is a case of you being envious of something that someone else is getting. Maybe you should become an FA and join Pam Sach in her fight for equality for her HOs.
Man you really get your panties in a knot over LOU 18 don't ya.So a Jazz guy gets to bypass the 2 years flat pay and be protected on 2 lists.
1. No they do not bypass the 2 year flat pay. They are on it just like the OTS.
2. There is no protection. You have to quit Jazz to go to mainline. If you flunk out, you are jobless just like the OTSer would be.
I can't for the life of me figure out why you piss and moan about this so much WF9f. When you get hired OTS, you get exactly what the contract says you should. If you chose to come OTS and not through the regionals, it is no one's fault but your own. LOU 18 is no industry secret. My guess is you were told by someone at AC, maybe a dad, uuncle of friend of the family to avoid the regionals and got OTS. Well, you made your bed, lay in it.
This isn't a case of you having somthing taken away, it is a case of you being envious of something that someone else is getting. Maybe you should become an FA and join Pam Sach in her fight for equality for her HOs.
i understand why LOU 18 is there.My belief is everyone who goes to AC starts at the same level, it is a different company ( dispite what you think)
Alot of guys at AC think the same.Leave all your baggage from previous employers behind.
I would become an FA at Jazz only i would be junior to you.
I am far from being envious of the Jazz attitude that they are always entitled to something and better than anyone else for jobs at AC.
Tighten your panties around that.
Alot of guys at AC think the same.Leave all your baggage from previous employers behind.
I would become an FA at Jazz only i would be junior to you.
I am far from being envious of the Jazz attitude that they are always entitled to something and better than anyone else for jobs at AC.
Tighten your panties around that.
Around what? You didin't really say anything. Yeah, so a couple of daddy's favourite pilots think everyone should start at the same wage. BOOO HOOO, he has more toys than me.Tighten your panties around that.
Tighten your panties around this. You can cry and whine about it and talk to your buddies all you want, it happens. Why? I am not sure. Maybe it is because of the CIRB ruling or something else that happened in the past but the fact is, it keeps getting renegotiated into the mix and if I understand correctly, your contract isn't open until 2009. SO until then, have fun making less than the Jazz guys with lower seniority! MUAHHAHAH, MUAHHAHHA , MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (doctor Evil laugh inserted).
Traf wrote:Around what? You didin't really say anything. Yeah, so a couple of daddy's favourite pilots think everyone should start at the same wage. BOOO HOOO, he has more toys than me.Tighten your panties around that.
Tighten your panties around this. You can cry and whine about it and talk to your buddies all you want, it happens. Why? I am not sure. Maybe it is because of the CIRB ruling or something else that happened in the past but the fact is, it keeps getting renegotiated into the mix and if I understand correctly, your contract isn't open until 2009. SO until then, have fun making less than the Jazz guys with lower seniority! MUAHHAHAH, MUAHHAHHA , MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (doctor Evil laugh inserted).
I think that is quite funny. Is this a challenge to compare wages here? Yours and mine?
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Gurundu the Rat
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Gurundu is exactly right. 09 will not be a festival of gains. It will be an exercise in holding on to the shitty little bits we have now. I know, this couldn't possibly happen to the AC pilots. I mean they gave once and now the company is made out of titanium and willbe a financial powerhouse for enternity. Fuel, global economies, politics, possible terrorist attacks etc.. have nothing to do with contracts now do they? 
, see justice throughout the land by getting rid of that annoying LOU 18 that has caused you so much harm 
. Well, if AC has it in place to keep the CIRB off their back, all the WAAA WAAAAAAing 
in the world from you and your 2 friends will not change it. But hey, you have every right to live the dream. Who knows, once LOU 18 is gone, maybe you could negotiate some perdiems for the EMB or pay for training days.
balls wrote
Again it seems like balls is answering my post without even reading it. My guess is, he is reading it but loses his concentration when he drifts on into magical land dreaming about what a good pilot he is and how much money he makes. Let me clarify it for you. I will type slow so you have a chance at understanding it. I was refering to the Jazz pilots that work at AC that have the same number or slightly lower number as WF9f making more money due to LOU18. D..o y..o..u u..d..e..r..s..t..a..n..d n..o..w? I know, I am taking away your fun . SOrry back to where we were. You wanted to say something balls? Ahh yes, please, go ahead, for everyone sake, tell us again how much you make!!!
OK WF9F, you have fun. I know you think it is going to be a contract filled with gold and silver raining down on you and that in 2009 you will, as a true blooded OTS AC daddydaycare pilotHave fun and I am looking forward to changes in 09
, see justice throughout the land by getting rid of that annoying LOU 18 that has caused you so much harm . Well, if AC has it in place to keep the CIRB off their back, all the WAAA WAAAAAAing in the world from you and your 2 friends will not change it. But hey, you have every right to live the dream. Who knows, once LOU 18 is gone, maybe you could negotiate some perdiems for the EMB or pay for training days.balls wrote
Yep, it sure is balls. How long have you been lurking in the background waiting to post your annual income here for everyone to see? It must be hell gowing almost a week without telling everyone how much you make. What's wrong, no dinner parties where you can tell tales about your sailboat and paycheck? Ok, tell us how much you make. I know you are dying to do it. I am challenging you to a dollar duel.Is this a challenge to compare wages here? Yours and mine?
Again it seems like balls is answering my post without even reading it. My guess is, he is reading it but loses his concentration when he drifts on into magical land dreaming about what a good pilot he is and how much money he makes. Let me clarify it for you. I will type slow so you have a chance at understanding it. I was refering to the Jazz pilots that work at AC that have the same number or slightly lower number as WF9f making more money due to LOU18. D..o y..o..u u..d..e..r..s..t..a..n..d n..o..w? I know, I am taking away your fun . SOrry back to where we were. You wanted to say something balls? Ahh yes, please, go ahead, for everyone sake, tell us again how much you make!!!
Gurundu is exactly right. 09 will not be a festival of gains. It will be an exercise in holding on to the shitty little bits we have now. I know, this couldn't possibly happen to the AC pilots. I mean they gave once and now the company is made out of titanium and willbe a financial powerhouse for enternity. Fuel, global economies, politics, possible terrorist attacks etc.. have nothing to do with contracts now do they?
, see justice throughout the land by getting rid of that annoying LOU 18 that has caused you so much harm . Well, if AC has it in place to keep the CIRB off their back, all the WAAA WAAAAAAing in the world from you and your 2 friends will not change it. But hey, you have every right to live the dream. Who knows, once LOU 18 is gone, maybe you could negotiate some perdiems for the EMB or pay for training days.
balls wrote
Again it seems like balls is answering my post without even reading it. My guess is, he is reading it but loses his concentration when he drifts on into magical land dreaming about what a good pilot he is and how much money he makes. Let me clarify it for you. I will type slow so you have a chance at understanding it. I was refering to the Jazz pilots that work at AC that have the same number or slightly lower number as WF9f making more money due to LOU18. D..o y..o..u u..d..e..r..s..t..a..n..d n..o..w? I know, I am taking away your fun . SOrry back to where we were. You wanted to say something balls? Ahh yes, please, go ahead, for everyone sake, tell us again how much you make!!!
OK WF9F, you have fun. I know you think it is going to be a contract filled with gold and silver raining down on you and that in 2009 you will, as a true blooded OTS AC daddydaycare pilotHave fun and I am looking forward to changes in 09
, see justice throughout the land by getting rid of that annoying LOU 18 that has caused you so much harm . Well, if AC has it in place to keep the CIRB off their back, all the WAAA WAAAAAAing in the world from you and your 2 friends will not change it. But hey, you have every right to live the dream. Who knows, once LOU 18 is gone, maybe you could negotiate some perdiems for the EMB or pay for training days.balls wrote
Yep, it sure is balls. How long have you been lurking in the background waiting to post your annual income here for everyone to see? It must be hell gowing almost a week without telling everyone how much you make. What's wrong, no dinner parties where you can tell tales about your sailboat and paycheck? Ok, tell us how much you make. I know you are dying to do it. I am challenging you to a dollar duel.Is this a challenge to compare wages here? Yours and mine?
Again it seems like balls is answering my post without even reading it. My guess is, he is reading it but loses his concentration when he drifts on into magical land dreaming about what a good pilot he is and how much money he makes. Let me clarify it for you. I will type slow so you have a chance at understanding it. I was refering to the Jazz pilots that work at AC that have the same number or slightly lower number as WF9f making more money due to LOU18. D..o y..o..u u..d..e..r..s..t..a..n..d n..o..w? I know, I am taking away your fun . SOrry back to where we were. You wanted to say something balls? Ahh yes, please, go ahead, for everyone sake, tell us again how much you make!!!
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tonysoprano
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Gurundu the Rat
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ok... Lets all just chill for a minute and think about the "big picture". This is EXACTLY what management wants from us. Does no one here have any vision as to what is going on or are we all just obsessed with our own narrow views? Tony, do you not realise that in any bloody divorce the only one better off in the end is the lawyer (in this case the company). AC has to get over the fact that Jazz now operates RJs and Jazz has to stop chasing bigger metal for this to stop. Great, Jazz has RJs but we now make less than we did five years ago because of all this bitterness between the two groups. If chasing anything bigger suggests more cuts then they can keep those Embraers at mainline because next they will want Jazz to get rid of the dash-8s to tier-3 and pay us dash wages on the EMB. Screw it! we should concentrate on what really matters as a united family and tell management to shove it by not playing their little games when they try to whipsaw us again in '09. Of course for this to happen the two groups gotta start planning a strategy. You can bet your a$$ that management is already planning very carefully to devide us further for 2009 and when it happens we will have been totally blindsided and in a very bad position to negotiate. We gotta start hiding some aces of our own up our sleeves so we don't get screwed again. Global solution is dead. Thats fine, most of us are over it. But, what management doesn't expect is for a united pilot group to show up to the table.
Rant over.
Rant over.
G The Rat, that would make too much sense. Each side seems to think that what just happened was a 1 time deal due to CCAA. If that is the thinking going into 2009, we are both sunk. The problem is, both sides see each other as the enemy and the threat. We are spending all our energy fighting between each other and putting stuff into our collective agreements that will ensure we get and they don't. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the company is raping our contracts and we are providing them with the vaseline to do it by fighting each other.
Will the internet banter ever stop? Probably not. What better way to spend some down time at work than pissing off some cyber dweebs. WF9F has to be the easiest troll in the world with balls as a close second. That is part of the game. What will really matter is the real world negotiations between ALPA-ACPA and each against the company. I know this is cliche, but together we stand divided we fall. If you don't believe me, look at your paycheck.
Righ now both sides are hiring and getting a bunch of new planes on the lawn. When the euphoria of all this wears off, the reality might set in. Take a look at the financial section of your paper. All indicators are pointing to a slowing US economy and you can bet ours will follow. Even after sept 11, our economy (not airline) recovered relatively quick and has been doing well since. Almost time in the cycle for a recession now isn't it? If we start into a downward trend, how much negotiatiing power does each side think they will have? Do you think the current state of affairs in the Middle East is going to help oil prices? Not after last week it won't.
As a pilot group, we need to start thinking outside our little shell and thinking big picture.
Will the internet banter ever stop? Probably not. What better way to spend some down time at work than pissing off some cyber dweebs. WF9F has to be the easiest troll in the world with balls as a close second. That is part of the game. What will really matter is the real world negotiations between ALPA-ACPA and each against the company. I know this is cliche, but together we stand divided we fall. If you don't believe me, look at your paycheck.
Righ now both sides are hiring and getting a bunch of new planes on the lawn. When the euphoria of all this wears off, the reality might set in. Take a look at the financial section of your paper. All indicators are pointing to a slowing US economy and you can bet ours will follow. Even after sept 11, our economy (not airline) recovered relatively quick and has been doing well since. Almost time in the cycle for a recession now isn't it? If we start into a downward trend, how much negotiatiing power does each side think they will have? Do you think the current state of affairs in the Middle East is going to help oil prices? Not after last week it won't.
As a pilot group, we need to start thinking outside our little shell and thinking big picture.
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tonysoprano
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When are we going to stop blaming everything on the "bitterness between the two groups"? I'm not denying this serves Milton in some way, but let's not give them too much credit. I don't think management has the time or the smarts to come up with the devious plans you guys credit them with. We all took a cut. Now we all need to gain it back. It will take years, maybe never. Do we blame the bitternes between the two groups? No. Hardly. ACE needed cuts everywhere or we would all be looking for work right now. I don't like them either. Our profession is headed for some major changes, slowly but surely. Would we stand a better chance if we had a united front? Yes. Is that going to happen soon? No. ACPA,ALPA, lawsuits, GS, scope and management all stand in the way. Who's to blame? That's not important anymore. Instead of blaming each other, maybe we should concentrate on our own respective groups. Sad.
