Cargo TA

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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:18 am
We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.
Materially different set of circumstances. Unless the collective agreement specifically dictates binding arbitration as the dispute resolution mechanism, the matter is subject to approval by both parties. Does anybody believe that the Federal Minister of Labour is going to intervene? I don’t think so. There is no strike/lockout looming over this.

This is a squabble over 2 767’s in 2021 and a potential maximum medium term fleet of 6 767’s. This doesn’t make anybody else’s radar screen.
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Fanblade
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:01 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:18 am
We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.
Materially different set of circumstances. Unless the collective agreement specifically dictates binding arbitration as the dispute resolution mechanism, the matter is subject to approval by both parties. Does anybody believe that the Federal Minister of Labour is going to intervene? I don’t think so. There is no strike/lockout looming over this.

This is a squabble over 2 767’s in 2021 and a potential maximum medium term fleet of 6 767’s. This doesn’t make anybody else’s radar screen.
Probably correct. Only caveat is a lot of people believed that back in 2011 and it turned out Calin was crafty. He disappears for a while stacking the cards in his favour. Shows up down the road with a gun to your head.

My point is we didn’t seem to learn our lesson. Don’t play around with close votes or votes that need to be “sold” to pass. Now I could be completely wrong and time will only tell. Maybe the vote will be clearly yeah or nay. But I doubt it.

A failed vote creates a lot of division. Division within the ranks and destroys the credibility of the MEC in front of the company.
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:18 am This vote should never have made it past the MEC.

The pay cut is a done deal. We will likely vote yes. Even if we vote no it will likely end up in an arbitrators hands. The arbitrator will ram down our throat what the MEC agreed too.

We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.
This can't end up infront of an arbitrator because we have no obligation to negotiate with them on this.
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Fanblade
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Fanblade »

discountpilot wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:43 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:18 am This vote should never have made it past the MEC.

The pay cut is a done deal. We will likely vote yes. Even if we vote no it will likely end up in an arbitrators hands. The arbitrator will ram down our throat what the MEC agreed too.

We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.
This can't end up infront of an arbitrator because we have no obligation to negotiate with them on this.
Never say can’t. Never underestimate the corporation and their desire to get what they want, or your unions willingness to comply.

My point was mostly meant to illustrate that we shouldn’t be in this situation. It should never have made it past the MEC.

If the vote fails risks exist. The largest one is the credibility of the MEC in front of the Corp and membership. Second is division within the group as a result. Third it can give the Corp an avenue to pursue where we lose our right to choose.

Yet, we keep doing it anyway.

I’m pointing to what I see as systemic problem. It is a given that not every time we walk down this path will the worst happen. However our willingness to keep walking that path will eventually bite us in the azz..... yet again.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:36 am
Probably correct. Only caveat is a lot of people believed that back in 2011 and it turned out Calin was crafty. He disappears for a while stacking the cards in his favour. Shows up down the road with a gun to your head.
Supposedly CR wanted the cargo specialty issue settled with MOA 2. That did not happen. So it would seem that not every outcome has been scripted by HQ in YUL.

Accepting (another) b-scale operation is a difficult choice facing the AC pilots.

But with a Transat merger and a potential 95 route cancelation commercial plan (including Express), more negative consequences loom just around the corner.
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:49 am
discountpilot wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:43 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:18 am This vote should never have made it past the MEC.

The pay cut is a done deal. We will likely vote yes. Even if we vote no it will likely end up in an arbitrators hands. The arbitrator will ram down our throat what the MEC agreed too.

We leaned this during TA1 nearly a decade ago. We overwhelmingly voted no. Ended up in arbitration. Final offer selection left us with TA1 minus a bunch. The jurisprudence says you can not walk away from what you agreed to.

Once the MEC has recommended something our vote is meaningless.
This can't end up infront of an arbitrator because we have no obligation to negotiate with them on this.
Never say can’t. Never underestimate the corporation and their desire to get what they want, or your unions willingness to comply.

My point was mostly meant to illustrate that we shouldn’t be in this situation. It should never have made it past the MEC.

If the vote fails risks exist. The largest one is the credibility of the MEC in front of the Corp and membership. Second is division within the group as a result. Third it can give the Corp an avenue to pursue where we lose our right to choose.

Yet, we keep doing it anyway.

I’m pointing to what I see as systemic problem. It is a given that not every time we walk down this path will the worst happen. However our willingness to keep walking that path will eventually bite us in the azz..... yet again.
Dude, it literally CAN'T. That's not how labour law works. We have a ten year CA with limits on what can and can't end up in front of an arbitrator. We are under no obligation to negotiate outside of the 10 year framework .
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Old fella
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Old fella »

All business be it multi national or whatever will chase the proverbial dime especially if they see opportunities and it’s trending, Air Canada is no different. I mean all the airlines and their associated dogs want to get in on the “ trash hauling” business. Perhaps they feel there will be just as many trash haulers plying their trade across the North Atlantic as passenger flying, who knows.
For many of us on the outside and have no buns to toss in this fight, we can understand what is going on. Air Canada mgt wants to cut your pay for the privilege of joining their trash hauling movement, an operation that has possibly less the stellar attributes( scheduling and otherwise). If I was an AC pilot and I wouldn’t care where I sat on seniority I would vote a big no. This type of operation would set up a regrettable trend as time moves on. In my view you guys n gals at AC deserve better going through this Covid-19 shit storm.

Just my silly meaningless two cents worth.
Down the hatch :drinkers: :drinkers:
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dhc#
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by dhc# »

rudder wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:54 am
Fanblade wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:36 am
Probably correct. Only caveat is a lot of people believed that back in 2011 and it turned out Calin was crafty. He disappears for a while stacking the cards in his favour. Shows up down the road with a gun to your head.
Supposedly CR wanted the cargo specialty issue settled with MOA 2. That did not happen. So it would seem that not every outcome has been scripted by HQ in YUL.

Accepting (another) b-scale operation is a difficult choice facing the AC pilots.

But with a Transat merger and a potential 95 route cancelation commercial plan (including Express), more negative consequences loom just around the corner.
Do you have a link for this ?
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

dhc# wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:32 pm
rudder wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:54 am and a potential 95 route cancelation commercial plan (including Express), more negative consequences loom just around the corner.
Do you have a link for this ?
Yup. Q3 AC analyst call (comment attributed to CR) and this:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... n-bailout/

Air Canada had advised governments of its intention to cancel 95 routes, domestic, U.S. and international, and pull out of another nine airports, moves that risked isolating parts of the country, in an effort to reduce its cash burn of about $13-million a day. The cuts were to be announced on Monday morning, when it reported a third-quarter loss of $685-million, the sources said.

In the end, Air Canada backed away from making the cuts, and acknowledged Mr. Garneau’s intention to proceed with sector-specific aid talks. But the airline issued a warning of its own, and signalled the high stakes involved in the negotiations: “We are deferring the additional route suspensions and station closures pending the progress of those discussions."
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Boooooo
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Post by Boooooo »

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Boooooo
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Post by Boooooo »

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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

Boooooo wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:21 pm As one of the 600 pilots on the street, I am pleased to read that the overwhelming majority of posters are opposed to this pathetic LOU. What worries me, however, is how representative this "NO" voice is of the 3700 pilots still on the payroll. I wanted to chime in to offer the perspective of a furloughed pilot who would vote "NO" if he could.

I implore any active AC pilots who are on the fence, or who are planning on voting "YES" to please consider some of the excellent points made here by other posters who are voting "NO". And if you are reading this and you are not an AC pilot, but perhaps a family member or friend is, please reach out to them to discuss some of the many reasons why a "NO" vote is good not only for the Air Canada pilots, but Canadian Aviation as a whole.

Here is a summary of some of the excellent points made by previous "NO" posters:
  • Management has clearly identified that cargo is a profitable revenue stream. If the profitability of the specialty company hinges on a 10% reduction in pilot labour costs (amounting to $63/flight hour, or $500 on a 9 hour transatlantic flight for a cargo 767 crew), then AIR CANADA SHOULD NOT START A NEW BUSINESS VENTURE WITH SUCH LOW MARGINS!
  • No other labour groups have been asked for a 10% wage concession. Why should the pilots take a 10% pay cut, for 2 more days of work, flying the SAME planes to the SAME destinations???
  • The corporation is already taking steps to create the specialty company, as evidenced by all the cargo related hiring they have done.
  • The absence of a snapback clause and the potential for arbitration on wages for other types of cargo aircraft sets the stage for future erosion of AC pay and working conditions. The Executive Team has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders to constantly cut costs and maximize profit - they are excellent at pursuing this goal, and LOU86 is just an example of the corporation trying to make gains wherever the pilot group will let them!

If you are a top-end seniority pilot who will not be affected by this LOU, please consider the detrimental impact that a "YES" vote will have on your junior brothers and sisters if they are forced to work the remainder of their careers under reduced WAWCON. We have no idea what the implications of a "YES" vote will be long term - who knows how the corporation will try to use the pilot group's acceptance of reduced WAWCON as a precedent in future negotiations? Furthermore, since Air Canada is the benchmark to which all other Operators in Canada set their WAWCON, how will these concessions affect the careers of all professional pilots in Canada? Ask yourself, if your son or daughter wanted to follow in your footsteps, would you want them to be subject to whatever future reductions which may follow?

If you are a mid-range seniority pilot with 10-20 years left on the job, voting "NO" certainly won't cost you your job! A "YES" vote could have serious negative impacts on the remainder of your career if/when the corporation attempts to implement the 10% wage concession in future negotiations! Perhaps the 777/787/330 fleets are reduced since their cargo uplift is no longer required, and now the cushy 777 seat where you've been planning on riding out the rest of your career is no longer an option! Or maybe you end up earning slighty less and working slightly more for the rest of your career until you retire 1-2 years later than planned. This is a dangerous precedent to set!

If you are a junior pilot who is fortunate enough to have retained your seat, please consider that a "NO" vote will not likely result in more furloughs. As has been discussed in the past, the corporation has likely reduced crews to the minimum level feasible while preserving its ability to spool-up and respond to a rapid return of travel demand. The pandemic is incredibly unique and dynamic, and no one can predict how and when travel will return to "normal" levels. Given the recent positive news in vaccine development, I am sure that management will be hesitant to furlough more pilots in the event that air-travel rebounds sooner than anticipated. There is no guarantee that LOU86 will create any new jobs; rather it might just allow for the already over-staffed pilot roster to be deployed more efficiently. Furthermore, there is also no guarantee that a "YES" vote will preserve any jobs past the end of MOA2 - flight-ops is already greatly overstaffed!

To vote "YES" is incredibly short-sighted and will only contribute to the already shameful erosion of WAWCON that Canadian airline pilots are subject to compared to the pilots of other major airlines around the world. The corporation is playing the long-game to maximize shareholder value - AC pilots must also start playing the long-game to maximize our professional value! Please do not vote "YES" in the belief that it will help the corporation survive the pandemic, or that it will result in the recall of furloughed members. There is no indication that a "YES" vote will result in either!

I have devoted 12 years to flying and have worked in the industry for the last 9. I spent many years up north, and despite loading planes in the rain, struggling with wing covers in the howling wind, enduring the bs of 703 operators, and sucking up the abysmal pay at Jazz, I have had a blast in this career. BUT, I certainly will not put my life on hold for an indeterminate amount of time waiting to be recalled to Mainline, especially if it is to a flat-pay job with a MEDIOCRE collective agreement that has been eroded even more due to covid-concessions! I am actively pursuing other careers and I hope that everyone else on furlough is doing so as well. Who knows when recalls will happen, and how the seniority of the 600 furloughs will be impacted by the integration of the Transat pilots. The 600 of us will likely come out on the bottom, and if lower seniority and longer upgrade times result, the negative impact on our careers will be infinitely greater if we are working on a diminished contract! Look at what has happened to the pilots and flight attendants at Cathay Pacific. Now is the time for all Air Canada pilots to band together and stick up for our profession. I, for one, would rather have my recalled delayed if it meant that I didn't have to return to even worse WAWCON, or else I would rather not return at all. Now I will leave it in the hands of my brothers and sisters who are still flying the line, but I hope that a resounding "NO" vote on LOU86 will be the turning point in the fight for Canadian Pilots to save not just AC WAWCON, but our profession as a whole!
Say it louder for the people in the back!


And also maybe go post this at the .. forum. Needs it's own thread.
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Boooooo
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Post by Boooooo »

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RippleRock
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RippleRock »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:59 am "No one is asking for FedEx or UPS wages...."


Really???? Did you even listen to the webinar? That question was asked about 4 times....
Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what would be an "appropriate" wage. We have an agreement that is very clear concerning existing compensation. That is all we ask.

Can you comment on why a 10% reduction in pay for exactly the same type of work, training and layover is justified? Or are you one of the architechs of this offense to our written agreement between the pilots and Management.

Respect the contract, or is that over-reaching?
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330heavy
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by 330heavy »

Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

330heavy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:42 pm Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
Well we have our first person publicly posting a YES on the other forum and I'm not at all surprised seeing the name of said poster.
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Torontomaplelaughs
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

330heavy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:42 pm Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
Well so far I've seen my YUL LEC chair support yes

YVR Councilor beg to vote yes

YVR LEC Chair says this is a 90% pay raise for a furlough

Our YWG chair who is the head of the negotiations committee obviously supports his work. He essentially votes twice

And since I agree with you, I have come to the conclusion we are currently being lead by retards
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

Torontomaplelaughs wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm
330heavy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:42 pm Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
Well so far I've seen my YUL LEC chair support yes

YVR Councilor beg to vote yes

YVR LEC Chair says this is a 90% pay raise for a furlough

Our YWG chair who is the head of the negotiations committee obviously supports his work. He essentially votes twice

And since I agree with you, I have come to the conclusion we are currently being lead by retards
WHAT THE ACTUAL @#$!

He's not even right. It would be a 100% raise because everyone furloughed is flat pay. Not that I agree at all with his point but at least get it right LOL.

Fucking moron BM.
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RVR6000
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RVR6000 »

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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

RVR6000 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:18 pm The legal guy said during the webinar ‘there is a 2009 precedence for 90% rates for cargo’ get fking real, precedence going back 11 years :rolleyes:

Well there is a 2009 precedence for DB pension as well, can we trade 90% for DB for all?

These guys have a defeatist mentality. Legal, MEC chair, negots chair, someone’s gotta go after this debacle. Paid almost $3k in union dues this year so far for these clowns.
People tried last election. Members voted for more of the same. They have no one to blame but themselves when things go up shit creek.
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

discountpilot wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:28 pm
RVR6000 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:18 pm The legal guy said during the webinar ‘there is a 2009 precedence for 90% rates for cargo’ get fking real, precedence going back 11 years :rolleyes:

Well there is a 2009 precedence for DB pension as well, can we trade 90% for DB for all?

These guys have a defeatist mentality. Legal, MEC chair, negots chair, someone’s gotta go after this debacle. Paid almost $3k in union dues this year so far for these clowns.
People tried last election. Members voted for more of the same. They have no one to blame but themselves when things go up shit creek.
YVR and YUL voted for more of the same. It's unfortunate that we don't have a roll call vote.
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

altiplano wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:58 pm
discountpilot wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:28 pm
RVR6000 wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:18 pm The legal guy said during the webinar ‘there is a 2009 precedence for 90% rates for cargo’ get fking real, precedence going back 11 years :rolleyes:

Well there is a 2009 precedence for DB pension as well, can we trade 90% for DB for all?

These guys have a defeatist mentality. Legal, MEC chair, negots chair, someone’s gotta go after this debacle. Paid almost $3k in union dues this year so far for these clowns.
People tried last election. Members voted for more of the same. They have no one to blame but themselves when things go up shit creek.
YVR and YUL voted for more of the same. It's unfortunate that we don't have a roll call vote.
Agree
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Torontomaplelaughs wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm
330heavy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:42 pm Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
Well so far I've seen my YUL LEC chair support yes

YVR Councilor beg to vote yes

YVR LEC Chair says this is a 90% pay raise for a furlough

Our YWG chair who is the head of the negotiations committee obviously supports his work. He essentially votes twice

And since I agree with you, I have come to the conclusion we are currently being lead by retards
It won’t even mean a RECALL for most furloughs (who are on flat pay anyways!) what kinda retard makes a statement like that?
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RippleRock
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RippleRock »

Torontomaplelaughs wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:48 pm
330heavy wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:42 pm Anyone who votes yes is a retard. Full stop.
Well so far I've seen my YUL LEC chair support yes

YVR Councilor beg to vote yes

YVR LEC Chair says this is a 90% pay raise for a furlough

Our YWG chair who is the head of the negotiations committee obviously supports his work. He essentially votes twice

And since I agree with you, I have come to the conclusion we are currently being lead by retards

If this passes, I hope many send personal thanks to these morons for doing permanent damage to our unity and future bargaining position. Send two letters of thanks to RW.

The YVR, YUL and YWG LEC chairs do not work for this pilot group. The integrity of our contract is not their priority, nor do they care one fig about anyone with more than 10 years left on the property. It's us that will be picking up after them. Take your career back.
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Johnny767
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Johnny767 »

Looks like this forum has been taken over by Pilots on Furlough, who think they have all the answers. Quite funny actually, we saw this after TA1 when a bunch of children stood at the back of the meeting and heckled the presenters. A couple of those clowns managed to get into elected positions and we never heard from them again.

They will always be remembered for the childish actions and being completely useless in an elected position.

Sounds a lot like P4C.
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