DEC Westjet Swoop

[boeingboy]

I guess I'm holding to the thinnest of straws that they keep it separate.

I see this as serious competition to Rouge.

[CaptainHaddock]

The WestJet Pilot Agreement part of the Scope clause spells out all revenue flying operated by ‘the Company’ will be exclusively flown by pilots subject to the agreement. That agreement encompasses WJ airlines and Swoop pilots (with a heavily carved out LOU). I don’t think the SunWing pilots will continue to operate indefinitely as a separate entity, they will eventually be under the WJ agreement (whatever it becomes next year).
There are a lot of moving pieces at WJ currently, with this now added. We have 9 Max’s showing up this year, another 6 at Swoop and a dedicated cargo diversion launching this spring. I’m not sure of the average tenure of a Sunwing pilot, the most junior YYZ WJ CA is currently 10 years, Swoop is probably 3 years-but all the WJ pilots are back now and WJ is hiring for all three airlines currently, so it will continue to drop. I am not familiar with the SunWing contract, but would guess it falls considerably above Swoops (LOU), and somewhere a bit below WJ.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I’m not sure of the average tenure of a Sunwing pilot, the most junior YYZ WJ CA is currently 10 years, Swoop is probably 3 years-but all the WJ pilots are back now and WJ is hiring for all three airlines currently, so it will continue to drop.

Most senior SWG CAPT is 2004 DOH, most junior is 2018.

Exactly 50% up the list is a 2016 DOH.

About 75% of the Sunwing list is less than 10 years of service, and there's about 470 pilots on the list.

[Bede]

Well in light of today’s announcement how do swoop pilots feel of the unions were to merge lists? Then all sunwing pilots will
Be ahead of swoop pilots making it virtually impossible to get to mainline. With encore pilots and now sunwing pilots which higher seniority.? Hope it works out for everyone involved. Crazy times

What about what Sunwing pilots think? I definitely don't want date-of-hire. I don't even want a merged list and I think most Sunwing pilots don't want a merged list either. There's hundreds of WJ pilots that have been there since the beginning who would trump even the #1 pilot at Sunwing.

As someone else suggested, a weighted merge would be better (if a merge happened at all). For example, if you're 20% up the list at Sunwing, you land 20% up on the newly-combined list. If you're 50% up the list at Sunwing, you land 50% up the newly-combined list, and so on.

That's really the most equitable way without penalizing the Sunwing, Swoop or Encore pilots, but I'd prefer just to stay in my sandbox and let the WJ/Swoop/Encore list debacle deal with itself. Don't drag us Sunwing pilots into that mess.

Those are really good points. Would you want to keep the SWG contract or get the WJ one?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

[/quote]
A weighted merge would be better (if a merge happened at all). For example, if you're 20% up the list at Sunwing, you land 20% up on the newly-combined list. If you're 50% up the list at Sunwing, you land 50% up the newly-combined list, and so on.

That's really the most equitable way.
[/quote]


Is that right? Most equitable way you say?
So… what you’re saying is that if you’re in the top 1% of Sunwing pilots - hired in 2015ish then the most equitable thing is that you get to parachute into the top 1% of the WestJet seniority list and bump out a senior skipper on the 787 that has been at WestJet since 1996… 2 decades before Sunwing was even conceived?

Give me a break.

[ALPApolicy]

The merger committees are free to use whatever method they want, including mixing DOH for certain ranges and a ratio method for other ranges.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Well, I’m sure that will prove to be true. But I can’t help but wonder what method the merger committees consisting of Sunwing’s 460 Unifor pilots pitted against WestJet’s 2241-strong ALPA pilots will come up with. Somehow I doubt it will be a hokey seniority ratio metric that ignores 2 decades worth of seniority.

Time will tell I suppose. Or - perhaps more appropriately - Kaplan will tell.

[ads-b]

Alpa policy seems level headed and correct. Long term it’s a great deal for everyone.

Old commercial pilot you forgot the first 11 years of Sunwing. Maybe I’m the old one?

Ads

[ALPApolicy]

Well, I’m sure that will prove to be true. But I can’t help but wonder what method the merger committees consisting of Sunwing’s 460 Unifor pilots pitted against WestJet’s 2241-strong ALPA pilots will come up with. Somehow I doubt it will be a hokey seniority ratio metric that ignores 2 decades worth of seniority.

Time will tell I suppose. Or - perhaps more appropriately - Kaplan will tell.

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

[Sharklasers]

Well in light of today’s announcement how do swoop pilots feel of the unions were to merge lists? Then all sunwing pilots will
Be ahead of swoop pilots making it virtually impossible to get to mainline. With encore pilots and now sunwing pilots which higher seniority.? Hope it works out for everyone involved. Crazy times

What about what Sunwing pilots think? I definitely don't want date-of-hire. I don't even want a merged list and I think most Sunwing pilots don't want a merged list either. There's hundreds of WJ pilots that have been there since the beginning who would trump even the #1 pilot at Sunwing.

As someone else suggested, a weighted merge would be better (if a merge happened at all). For example, if you're 20% up the list at Sunwing, you land 20% up on the newly-combined list. If you're 50% up the list at Sunwing, you land 50% up the newly-combined list, and so on.

That's really the most equitable way without penalizing the Sunwing, Swoop or Encore pilots, but I'd prefer just to stay in my sandbox and let the WJ/Swoop/Encore list debacle deal with itself. Don't drag us Sunwing pilots into that mess.

So purely as an outsider I have to say posting stupid shit like this only serves to get the Westjet pilots all spun up and start throwing out their own crazy ideas like “sunwing pilots to the bottom of the list”. And before you say “well that’s just crazy” the way the Westjet guys will frame Hunters comments about having 350 million dollars in debt at 11 points is that Sunwing was circling the drain and unlikely to survive the downturn without a buyout.
You sound just like when the Transat guys started antagonizing the AC guys on here a couple years back. Asking for 777 manuals and talking about stealing seats and bumping guys out of bases. Your not going to be gifted that much seniority and slide in beside someone with 10-20 more years on property than you so get that out of your head now.

[cloak]

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

Good point, remains to be seen.

The merger committees are free to use whatever method they want, including mixing DOH for certain ranges and a ratio method for other ranges.

Also a good point and probably likely.

[ALPApolicy]

It might be reasonable for WJ pilots to seek a fence around the 787 positions for a limited period of time.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Well, I’m sure that will prove to be true. But I can’t help but wonder what method the merger committees consisting of Sunwing’s 460 Unifor pilots pitted against WestJet’s 2241-strong ALPA pilots will come up with. Somehow I doubt it will be a hokey seniority ratio metric that ignores 2 decades worth of seniority.

Time will tell I suppose. Or - perhaps more appropriately - Kaplan will tell.

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

It might be reasonable for WJ pilots to seek a fence around the 787 positions for a limited period of time.

I don’t disagree. But why would the 787 positions be so sacred as to deserve a fence while other positions are not?
Would a senior YVR or YYC captain not deserve a fence around their position or base? How about the guy that was 1 number short of holding a 787 position? Should his base & rank now be up for grabs?

Anyway… it’s ludicrous to even debate that 787 positions with over a quarter century’s worth of seniority might get displaced by Sunwing pilots. But purely for arguments sake, surely you can see what I’m getting at.

[ALPApolicy]

Well, I’m sure that will prove to be true. But I can’t help but wonder what method the merger committees consisting of Sunwing’s 460 Unifor pilots pitted against WestJet’s 2241-strong ALPA pilots will come up with. Somehow I doubt it will be a hokey seniority ratio metric that ignores 2 decades worth of seniority.

Time will tell I suppose. Or - perhaps more appropriately - Kaplan will tell.

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?

I do believe it does.

[ALPApolicy]

It might be reasonable for WJ pilots to seek a fence around the 787 positions for a limited period of time.

I don’t disagree. But why would the 787 positions be so sacred as to deserve a fence while other positions are not?
Would a senior YVR or YYC captain not deserve a fence around their position or base? How about the guy that was 1 number short of holding a 787 position? Should his base & rank now be up for grabs?

It’s not going to happen. But surely you can see what I’m getting at.

I'm not denying that other fences might be desirable from the perspective of other pilots at WJ.

I don't think much, if any, bumping from currently held positions will occur. There is too much growth coming.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?

I do believe it does.

Okay, one more reply then I’m going to bed. And probably logging off this website again for another 5 or 6 years.

I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Of course it matters immensely whether Sunwing pilots would be merged with WJ/Swoop pilots separately or with the entire list for a number of reasons.

What I’m saying is that it is extremely unlikely that that detail is going to sway any ALPA merger committee into pursuing some weird hybrid weighted-average seniority integration.

What if Lynx were to merge with Air Canada? Would the AC merger committee even entertain the notion of Lynx’s top 10% (who started yesterday) slotting into their top 10%?
It’s ludicrous

[ALPApolicy]

Of course I don’t know for sure. But does that detail matter even slightly?

I do believe it does.

Okay, one more reply then I’m going to bed. And probably logging off this website again for another 5 or 6 years.

I think you’re misunderstanding me.
Of course it matters immensely whether Sunwing pilots would be merged with WJ/Swoop pilots separately or with the entire list for a number of reasons.

What I’m saying is that it is extremely unlikely that that detail is going to sway any ALPA merger committee into pursuing some weird hybrid weighted-average seniority integration.

What if Lynx were to merge with Air Canada? Would the AC merger committee even entertain the notion of Lynx’s top 10% (who started yesterday) slotting into their top 10%?
It’s ludicrous

Agreed. My point has more to do with the mechanics of integration of the lists. The WJ group seniority list (including Encore) is a DOH list composed of pilots hired at any of the three companies and the DOH associated with their first hire date. (Encore pilots resign at Encore in order to be hired at WJ or Swoop.)

The WJ/Swoop seniority list is not a DOH list, if by DOH one means the date first hired at WJ mainline or Swoop. It will be more challenging to integrate this list with SunWing pilots' DOH list. Much easier to integrate with the Group list.

[ant_321]

I was thinking while reading through, it’s nice that the conversation is civil and had me thinking we may be able to avoid all that pettiness that was on here during the transat/ air Canada “merger”. Then I hit oldcommercialpilot’s posts.

[goleafsgo]

For those saying that Jazz/Georgian/Sky set the precedent for DOH, that’s not necessarily the case here. All 3 of those airlines were ALPA whereas Sunwing is Unifor so not really the same argument.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Is that right? Most equitable way you say?
So… what you’re saying is that if you’re in the top 1% of Sunwing pilots - hired in 2015ish then the most equitable thing is that you get to parachute into the top 1% of the WestJet seniority list and bump out a senior skipper on the 787 that has been at WestJet since 1996… 2 decades before Sunwing was even conceived?

Give me a break.

I won't give you a break because you have your facts all wrong and are posting incorrect information like it's the truth. The most senior pilot at Sunwing has been on the property since 2004. That's only 8 years after WestJet started, not "2 decades" as you say.

Almost 30% of Sunwing pilots have more than 10 years of seniority with the company as well. Yes, Sunwing is a young company, but it's not like it got started last week like Lynx as you mention in another post.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post such nonsense.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

For those saying that Jazz/Georgian/Sky set the precedent for DOH, that’s not necessarily the case here. All 3 of those airlines were ALPA whereas Sunwing is Unifor so not really the same argument.

The Jazz/Georgian/Sky situation was unique in that they all operated as CPA carriers for Air Canada. They were all "siblings" of the AC mothership. AC literally gave the aircraft to Jazz who then had to find a way to crew them (one of them being a completely new type to the operation). The easiest way to do that is just bring the pilots over with DOH. Did all of them being ALPA help? Probably. But it wasn't the be-all and end-all that made it work.

The SWG/WJ situation is different. This is the case of one company buying another as opposed to having the mothership force you to give your aircraft to someone else.

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Is that right? Most equitable way you say?
So… what you’re saying is that if you’re in the top 1% of Sunwing pilots - hired in 2015ish then the most equitable thing is that you get to parachute into the top 1% of the WestJet seniority list and bump out a senior skipper on the 787 that has been at WestJet since 1996… 2 decades before Sunwing was even conceived?

Give me a break.

I won't give you a break because you have your facts all wrong and are posting incorrect information like it's the truth. The most senior pilot at Sunwing has been on the property since 2004. That's only 8 years after WestJet started, not "2 decades" as you say.

Almost 30% of Sunwing pilots have more than 10 years of seniority with the company as well. Yes, Sunwing is a young company, but it's not like it got started last week like Lynx as you mention in another post.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post such nonsense.

Actually, you can still give me a break. So Sunwing has a handful of pilots who have been there since the mid 2000’s, does that make it reasonable for them to parachute into a 787 captain position at another airline?

Also, as an example, the Sunwing pilots at 50% seniority were hired in 2016 roughly. WestJet pilots at the 50% mark were hired nearly a decade before that. You still want to suggest that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable?

And my example of Lynx/Air Canada was an extreme example that I was using to demonstrate that a small airline merging with a much larger more senior airline would make it fairly ridiculous to suggest merging lists based on current seniority within the respective airlines. So a pilot at 50% seniority at Lynx shouldn’t slot into the middle of the AC list? But a pilot at 50% seniority at SWG should join the middle of the WJ list and just trump a decade’s worth of seniority?
Sorry, I don’t see the difference.
It’s an exaggerated comparison of a WestJet/Sunwing merger but it’s relevant.

You would be wise to get your Unifor house in order and direct your merger committee to attempt to reach a reasonable agreement with ALPA at all costs. If a list merger were to end up going to arbitration I don’t believe you’d be pleased with the outcome. Are you familiar with the term Endtail Seniority?

[Mostly Harmless]

Some are under the misconception that if Swoop was not created its flying would have been absorbed by the mainline, which is not case. Its flying would have simply been absorbed by others in that market segment. Swoop is a way for the WestJet group to c̶a̶p̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ s̶o̶m̶e̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶u̶e̶ lose huge amounts of money, as publicly documented before the company went private. It is important for pilots to know the market in which they operate and have reasonable expectations as not to price themselves out of that market, e.g. Skyservice. As WestJet transitions into more of “legacy” carrier, it would be ok for it to compete with legacy carrier wowcon for mainline, as for what it will look like for Swoop will be the result of negotiations to be sure, but it’s important to have reasonable expectations and be flexible, possibly to set a ratio to mainline?

The U. S. is short roughly 14,000 pilots next year. That's one year. As Canada is often compared to the U. S. in every way except wages, and being 1/10th the size of the U. S. we can presume a shortfall of 1,400 pilots next year in the Canadian market. You are correct, it is important for pilots to know the market in which they operate... and that market is not what it has been since the 1970's.

The company management are always making changes and then telling us we need to be accepting of change and embrace it... it is long past the time that the management takes its own advice and embrace the changes in the market, rather than perpetuating the story of pilot surpluses and scarcity of jobs.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Actually, you can still give me a break. So Sunwing has a handful of pilots who have been there since the mid 2000’s, does that make it reasonable for them to parachute into a 787 captain position at another airline?

Also, as an example, the Sunwing pilots at 50% seniority were hired in 2016 roughly. WestJet pilots at the 50% mark were hired nearly a decade before that. You still want to suggest that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable?

And my example of Lynx/Air Canada was an extreme example that I was using to demonstrate that a small airline merging with a much larger more senior airline would make it fairly ridiculous to suggest merging lists based on current seniority within the respective airlines. So a pilot at 50% seniority at Lynx shouldn’t slot into the middle of the AC list? But a pilot at 50% seniority at SWG should join the middle of the WJ list and just trump a decade’s worth of seniority?
Sorry, I don’t see the difference.
It’s an exaggerated comparison of a WestJet/Sunwing merger but it’s relevant.

You're missing what I originally said. I said that I don't think SWG pilots want to have a merged seniority list at all, BUT if it came to that, a percentage/ ratio merged list is equitable. I'd rather keep our operations separate if possible. I'm not suggesting "that slotting in ahead of them on their own airplanes is perfectly equitable." I'm suggesting that SWG pilots fly SWG aircraft and keep our own list. You're jumping to conclusions.

If there's "only a handful" of super senior pilots at SWG as you say, it won't even really make a dent in the relative seniority of the several thousand WestJet pilots. And that's assuming that guys with one or two years left before they hit 65 want to go to the trouble of commuting from YYZ to YYC and learning to fly a 787. Only 6 of the top 100 seniority at SWG are YYC based anyways, so you need not worry about them all of a sudden deciding to move to YYC and "parachute" into a 787.

Lastly, you using "exaggerated" and "extreme" examples to prove your point only shows how invalid your point is. If your examples rely on a most-likely impossible situation to make it sound at all like the SWG/WJ situation, then you've already lost the argument.