Flow through to AC

[canadian_aviator_4]

Agreed

[Fanblade]

But the AC pilots are unlikely to agree to reserved numbers unless there was something in return.

That leaves paying for retention at Jazz or doing nothing and except the exodus.

They are picking the latter and wait and see

If it gets bad enough AC will need to rethink.

[RockSalty]

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.

Doubt we’d see this happen with how it’s worked out with Encore/WJ

[Loon-A-Tic]

The agreement was signed to get rid of the DB pension at Jazz for hires 2015 and beyond. Getting rid of the pension saved Jazz millions, and provided AC a stream of candidates. Now, without the flow, jazz has nothing of advantage to give to junior members. It’s basically two companies. Those senior pilots with c2 passes, deadheads with upgrades, and a pension. Then junior pilots with non of these items.

So what if Jazz/AC gives back those benefits and includes a seniority number at AC, would people stay?

I think just the seniority number at AC would keep most at Jazz.

It won't keep any of the older pilots the flat pay stop them, but improved pay and a better pension might.

[Transition9er2]

There would need to be some serious language put out regarding a reserved seniority number situation and how it works.

The way the world is changing at the moment, you can’t plan for next month let a lone the next 2 years.

I would be extremely cautious agreeing to this. What happens if they change their minds 1yr into the deal due to “unforeseen circumstances”?

Both airlines are quickly losing credibility when it comes to contracts.

[tango308]

Folks let's not fall for the AC carrot once again. Let's start with something tangible, better pay and go from there. Look at what is happening at the US regionals for example.

[pitottubey]

Folks let's not fall for the AC carrot once again. Let's start with something tangible, better pay and go from there. Look at what is happening at the US regionals for example.

Ya reserved seniority numbers just seems like the next carrot they wont honour. Pilots falling for the same shit all over again. Permanently raised wages is the only thing to be trusted at this point.

[Sharklasers]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

[daedalusx]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

Wear your ALPA lanyard, that will really show management who’s the boss
Didn’t Unifor, the auto workers union, told SWG crews to do the same thing after it was revealed that SWG negotiated in bad faith re: the sale to WJ during the last contract negotiation and then got utterly betrayed when their own leader, bribe-taker and drug addicted Jerry D went out in the press and said that they actually made gains during the last negotiations even though it was a 20% paycut on top of SWG hiring DEC TFWs and canceling benefits. Where’s the power of the lanyard?!

Wearing your union lanyard doesn’t do jack shit you spineless morons.

Put the parking brake on. Book off if you’re fatigued/sick even at an outstation. Stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop picking up trips in open time and see how quickly things start to improve when Jazz has a 30% flight cancellation rate due to understaffing.

Mind you, it’ll never happen because the wages that you’ve signed on a 10 year contract are such shit poverty wages that every one is compelled to do OT to pay the bills and survive the rising cost of living due to inflation.

My job gave me a 30% pay increase in the last 6 month, adjusted for inflation, cost of living and increased revenue. How much a jazzie FO T4 will be in 2022 vs 2021 vs inflation and housing increase?

[Nick678]

I don’t think they could improve our contract enough to make it appealing to stay. We have to admit we put our saddle on a shit horse and walk away.

No PML no flow no thank you

[Loon-A-Tic]

Jazz need a “full” reset on all levels, pay, pension, benefits etc. They need to rebrand themselves as a career employer with an AC “flow thru” option for those chasing the “big iron”

[Topgun13]

-

[QKZXKV]

Reserved seniority with no definitive timeline for hiring seems rife with problems and would likely lead to a DFR at some point like LOU 18 did.

The Jazz ALPA MeC seems weak and ineffectual. The ‘wear your lanyard’ comment was farcical.

The Jazz ALPA MEC sold the membership a bill of goods in 2015 promising career progression in exchange for a punitive B scale and historic erosion of the wawcon.

This isn’t the fault of AC or ACPA or their pilots if they turn down some sort of reservation system. It isn’t our fault if Jazz cannot meet it’s contractual obligations.

Every month Jazz pilots lose 100 numbers while OTS candidates get hired and will potentially have entirely different careers and outcomes because of it.

Wear your ALPA lanyard, that will really show management who’s the boss
Didn’t Unifor, the auto workers union, told SWG crews to do the same thing after it was revealed that SWG negotiated in bad faith re: the sale to WJ during the last contract negotiation and then got utterly betrayed when their own leader, bribe-taker and drug addicted Jerry D went out in the press and said that they actually made gains during the last negotiations even though it was a 20% paycut on top of SWG hiring DEC TFWs and canceling benefits. Where’s the power of the lanyard?!

Wearing your union lanyard doesn’t do jack shit you spineless morons.

Put the parking brake on. Book off if you’re fatigued/sick even at an outstation. Stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop picking up trips in open time and see how quickly things start to improve when Jazz has a 30% flight cancellation rate due to understaffing.

Mind you, it’ll never happen because the wages that you’ve signed on a 10 year contract are such shit poverty wages that every one is compelled to do OT to pay the bills and survive the rising cost of living due to inflation.

My job gave me a 30% pay increase in the last 6 month, adjusted for inflation, cost of living and increased revenue. How much a jazzie FO T4 will be in 2022 vs 2021 vs inflation and housing increase?

I saw that email from a friend. Had to laugh at the lanyard comment. I never wore my ALPA lanyard... what kind of miracle will that produce?

Interesting how the Montreal Mafia wants to use this as a point of negotiation; forgetting that they signed away all that for a 17y turd back in 2019.
I guess the imagined leverage is working well...

I can't for the life of me understand how ALPA and its band of mentors can continue to sell a turd to its association but I digress.

[negative_g]

Funny how Canadians think the lanyard means nothing. Look south of the border, it's a completely different story. Delta rocking lanyards that say "A CONTRACT IS A CONTRACT" in lime green. Don't think Delta management and the public don't notice. Its not about YOU, it's about visibility and sending a message of unity.

As an AC pilot who isn't even allowed to wear an ACPA lanyard, I can't wait for the day we job ALPA and I can dust off my old one.

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

[QKZXKV]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...

[QKZXKV]

and bringing up ACPA every time as a way of pity is tired... We keep making our beds with that old boy's club every single time!

[negative_g]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...

Your attitude is a big part of why Canadian WAWCON keeps decreasing. Pilots just don't give a shit, they don't know or understand what actual unity looks like. Constant infighting and it's quite frustrating to watch.

[Topgun13]

-

[negative_g]

Does anyone think that 17 year deal would have passed without the flow deal to AC? I think I know the answer. If AC is negging on the 60% it in some way completely invalidates the whole 17 years thing IMO. Maybe write your reps and get them to push on that.

[QKZXKV]

You guys miss the mark big time on this.

We missed nothing...

Comparing us to the US is weak. The Montreal Mafia is allowed to run around unchecked here because it's too disjointed with Virginia... but you're entitled to that rose coloured viewpoint...

Your attitude is a big part of why Canadian WAWCON keeps decreasing. Pilots just don't give a shit, they don't know or understand what actual unity looks like. Constant infighting and it's quite frustrating to watch.

No...

it's the fact that our Union brass are another extension of management... Both ACPA and ALPA.

[Caterpillar]

A contract is a contract. We accepted lower wages for the FOs while getting the guarantee 60% (max 10% rejection).

ALPA MEC better be defending the contract.

[Cavalier44]

Air Canada has hired ~160 pilots this year, including the latest PIT course that just started. My understanding is that the intention is to hire 40 pilots per PIT course and run two PIT courses per month for the foreseeable future. That's one more course for September, two for October, two for November, and I'll guess one for December due to the holidays, giving a total of six PIT courses remaining for the year.

Doing some quick math, that adds up to 400 new-hire pilots for 2022. Now granted, AC hasn't managed to achieve exactly 40 pilots per course, but since that's what the plan is, those are the numbers that I'll assume for the sake of argument.

400 pilots * 0.6 gives 240, which is the number of pilots Air Canada would have had to hire from Jazz this year in order to meet the agreed-upon 60% ratio. I'll assume that all of the Jazz pilots out of our hypothetical 240 would be Captains based on the dates of hire of the pilots that they would have been offering the jobs to. Which leads to some pertinent questions, namely: Does Jazz have 240 upgradeable FOs on its seniority list to fill the vacancies of those pilots who would be leaving for AC? And, if they did, do they have the capacity to hire 240 FOs this year to replace those who would be upgrading? I'm making an educated guess that the answer to both of those questions is "no".

Continuing with this line of thinking, one can only assume that Air Canada and Jazz have an ongoing dialogue with regard to future hiring requirements. It seems certain to me that at some point over the last six months, AC management must have sat down with Jazz and said "hey, we're planning to hire 400 pilots this year, how many can you realistically give us?" The fact that we're now at a point where Jazz has decided they don't have enough pilots on their roster to send a certain number to Air Canada speaks volumes. I suspect that this is in no way a surprise for Jazz management, they would have known all along that sending 240 pilots to Air Canada before the end of the year was a pie-in-the-sky fantasy.

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

While Jazz management largely bares the fault here due to being unable to staff their operation at an appropriate level, much of that is also symptomatic of the fact that the 17-year contract is no longer sufficient to attract new candidates in sufficient number; especially not to attract Direct Entry Captains, which they're going to need a significant number of since they don't seem to have enough pilots left on property who are upgradeable.

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

[negative_g]

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

Thing is, why would AC do this? Grounded Jazz planes means empty WBs. There's no way AC depletes Jazz. Unless there's a deferral deal I 100% expect them to ignore the agreement and hire OTS. They will put the business first, and working against yourself by essentially causing a staffing crisis at your only feeder isn't going to happen.

Also with regards to the 40/class, it hasn't even been close. AC can't even fill classes OTS right now. There's even reports of a few no shows day one. Sounds like Flair is taking a lot of pilots who were on the fence of coming to AC anyways, and going DEC at Flair.

Which is good.

[Cavalier44]

So, what should Air Canada do about this situation? If they stick to the agreement and deplete the ranks at Jazz, they would inadvertently create a staffing crisis that would lead to a number of flight cancellations. Even if ALPA were to file a grievance and the case was to go before an arbitrator, would an impartial third party truly agree that that is the most rational course of action?

Thing is, why would AC do this? Grounded Jazz planes means empty WBs. There's no way AC depletes Jazz. Unless there's a deferral deal I 100% expect them to ignore the agreement and hire OTS. They will put the business first, and working against yourself by essentially causing a staffing crisis at your only feeder isn't going to happen.

I know, I agree with you. It was a rhetorical question.

Also with regards to the 40/class, it hasn't even been close. AC can't even fill classes OTS right now. There's even reports of a few no shows day one. Sounds like Flair is taking a lot of pilots who were on the fence of coming to AC anyways, and going DEC at Flair.

I'm aware. However, my understanding based on what I've been told from reputable sources in the training department is that the target is 40 per PIT course going forward. I've used 40 for argument's sake, because I think when Air Canada had the discussion with Jazz as to how many pilots they were going to hire this year, they assumed 400 pilots from June to December, not whatever they happen to be getting now.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.