TA

[hithere]

Why is everyone saying there is not a commuting policy in this TA? There clearly is in the executive summary I’ve read.
It’s the same one that’s been in the Jazz contract for years and is now in the WJ contract, and now the ACA TA. If you’re looking for the United Positive space commuting policy, well that’s going to take another bargaining cycle in a couple of years.
Also
Is there any change to the max working days on a narrow body(16 I believe is the current)?

[khedrei]

This guy gets it. Its not a hard concept.

Apparently it is, what do you think would be more beneficial to a pilot throughout their career, adding $20/hour to the year 1 pay scale or $20/hour to all the year 12 pay scales?

I was expecting years 1-4 to see greater gains because the airline should see the benefit in attracting higher quality applicants. However, from a pilots perspective, these aren't end loaded pay tables...they're Captain loaded. That may seem like the same thing but it isn't. The airline is taking deliveries of 40+ aircraft by the end of the contract term. With 22 aircraft of net growth in 2025 there isn't a single pilot voting on this TA that wont be able to hold Year 2 A220 Captain ($287.63/hour + profit sharing) within the next year.

I've read through the comments on slack and WhatsApp, it's the same group leading the charge and spinning theories that always seem to appear and yet never volunteer and could never get elected despite their apparent popularity. I've had brief conversations with members of the LEC, NC and MEC and they're all disappointed that they weren't able to achieve more but feel that this is the best they could do. The theory that they would like the membership to 'read between the lines' and vote this deal down so we can send them back to the table to achieve more is 100% false, they all have their resignations ready as they've given everything they can.

And future earnings don't pay today's bills.

People should have this phrase at the top of their minds. You never know what will happen in 10 years. By then, the captains rates could be well under inflation. It is far more important to get a living wage and get ahead of inflation TODAY. Anyone who votes to leave a new FO working a PT job while they buy their second boat should give themselves a hard look in the mirror.

[daedalusx]

Hahahahahaha what a cope fest

"WE DID EVERYTHING WE COULD"

Except sending a 72 hr strike notice on a 98% STRIKE VOTE MANDATE




But we haven't reached top copium level yet, my favourite is the conspiracy about the transport minister being in the smoke filled room forcing them to take the deal and ALPA playing 6D chess by wanting the membership to vote it down so that they can strike on X-MAS

[TheStig]

There it is... we don't care what you think, if you don't vote for it we quit. Even though we could have given strike notice and shut the whole thing down to keep pushing for more on the bottom end.

I don't believe you'll see any of the MEC/NC present the TA in that context, but rather calling a strike wasn't a 1.9B gamble they were ready to take, maybe you feel differently, that's fair. We were all pretty content with our representation on friday. The union's maximum leverage is at 11:59pm, although a lot of us would have liked to send the company a big nasty message and walked off the job, that doesn't actually add leverage.

Nobody is happy with this deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the absolute best they could achieve. If they've done their best and it isn't good enough for the membership, they'll walk away. That's not a threat, it's simply because they can't offer anything more.

I don't expect them to attempt to sell this TA (like in 2014) or threaten us with the potential consequences of voting it down but explain the details of the TA and how they reached it and then let the membership decide. I'm willing to wait for the details before deciding.

[khedrei]

There it is... we don't care what you think, if you don't vote for it we quit. Even though we could have given strike notice and shut the whole thing down to keep pushing for more on the bottom end.

I don't believe you'll see any of the MEC/NC present the TA in that context, but rather calling a strike wasn't a 1.9B gamble they were ready to take, maybe you feel differently, that's fair. We were all pretty content with our representation on friday. The union's maximum leverage is at 11:59pm, although a lot of us would have liked to send the company a big nasty message and walked off the job, that doesn't actually add leverage.

Nobody is happy with this deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the absolute best they could achieve. If they've done their best and it isn't good enough for the membership, they'll walk away. That's not a threat, it's simply because they can't offer anything more.

I don't expect them to attempt to sell this TA (like in 2014) or threaten us with the potential consequences of voting it down but explain the details of the TA and how they reached it and then let the membership decide. I'm willing to wait for the details before deciding.

Seeing a raise for the captains 30% bigger than the FOs entire salary isn't enough info for you to vote no already?

[Senor Panda]

Don't look to USA, look at what they just achieved in Australia.

Australia and Canada are very similar.

Property in YVR, YYC, YYZ or YUL are just as unaffordable as Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne or Perth.

Boomers in Australia and Canada are also similar:
- Still believe in the English Monarchy
- Hate their children
- Hate anyone having opportunity
- Hate paying wages
- Love hoarding property
- Love belittling the next generation

New Virgin Australia TA is $183,137 for a 1st year FO

#VOTE NO

https://australianaviation.com.au/2024/ ... onditions/

https://www.airwaysmag.com/new-post/vir ... -agreement

[Launchpad1]

There's an FAQ addition now, same place as the Executive Summary. Seems like the vote will be after the roadshows etc.

[DSoup]

Iwould be downright surprised if ALPA didn't have Agency Shop language in the AC contract. Every ALPA chapter has it in their contract.

Usually if you say you have a religious objection to the union then you're allowed to donate to a charity via the Rand Formula.

[digits_]

Since we're all spouting wild theories during this initial shock, I was wondering if AC FOs would have a case against the union for a failure of properly representing them. I know these cases are extremely hard to prove, but I am wondering how a judge would look at senior colleagues getting 100k raises negotiated bu themselves and their junior colleagues getting 20k raises. The numbers do seem extremely out of whack.

[Dockjock]

It’s a percentage. Sorry if someone already covered this.

[Bede]

Since we're all spouting wild theories during this initial shock, I was wondering if AC FOs would have a case against the union for a failure of properly representing them. I know these cases are extremely hard to prove, but I am wondering how a judge would look at senior colleagues getting 100k raises negotiated bu themselves and their junior colleagues getting 20k raises. The numbers do seem extremely out of whack.

No case. Wont even get a hearing. A union has the right to set priorities as it sees fit.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Since we're all spouting wild theories during this initial shock, I was wondering if AC FOs would have a case against the union for a failure of properly representing them. I know these cases are extremely hard to prove, but I am wondering how a judge would look at senior colleagues getting 100k raises negotiated bu themselves and their junior colleagues getting 20k raises. The numbers do seem extremely out of whack.

Ya this wont be happening. Talking to people it’s already 50/50. Throw in some union roadshows and you get 51/49

[accountant]

ALPA main goal wasn’t to get massive gains, it was to avoid paying strike pay. Union brass get bonuses the fatter their bank accounts are.

I’m not surprised they settled around the rumoured 40pct gains - you jump past WS and have some gains and get to do this again in 4 years.

I don’t think anyone realistically expected you to match Us carriers in one contract….

I too am surprised you guys didn’t walk. I thought for sure a strike was going to happen.

Best of luck. (Yes I said it…)

Can't believe I'm agreeing with you because you're correct

Yeah I get it. I wasn't exactly kind during the WS stuff. That said, I think we all know why the MEC settled (probably with huge prodding from ALPA head office). Thankfully you're not tied down for a long time like the last agreements.

[khedrei]

It’s a percentage. Sorry if someone already covered this.

Ohhhh... no way. Percentage. Now that you put it that way it totally makes sense.

Guys, time to relax. This guy explained it for us. Its just percentage. No need to get upset. We can all calm down now that we know why your captain makes 5X your salary.

Just remember to put "its a percentage" and "I will make lots of money in 10 years" on your mortgage application.

[altiplano]

There it is... we don't care what you think, if you don't vote for it we quit. Even though we could have given strike notice and shut the whole thing down to keep pushing for more on the bottom end.

I don't believe you'll see any of the MEC/NC present the TA in that context, but rather calling a strike wasn't a 1.9B gamble they were ready to take, maybe you feel differently, that's fair. We were all pretty content with our representation on friday. The union's maximum leverage is at 11:59pm, although a lot of us would have liked to send the company a big nasty message and walked off the job, that doesn't actually add leverage.

Nobody is happy with this deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the absolute best they could achieve. If they've done their best and it isn't good enough for the membership, they'll walk away. That's not a threat, it's simply because they can't offer anything more.

I don't expect them to attempt to sell this TA (like in 2014) or threaten us with the potential consequences of voting it down but explain the details of the TA and how they reached it and then let the membership decide. I'm willing to wait for the details before deciding.

100%

Like the deal or not, this is what we have.

I know that these guys that were there making decisions in the moment had a hell of a job to do and were under unbelievable pressure. I know that they have done more for our group in the past 18 months than ACPA did in the previous 20 years.

Hear out the MEC and then we move forward.

Whether the vote goes for taking this deal and preparing for 2026/27 where we will get the rest of the WCC, or if the vote sends us back to the table or into arbitration with a new mandate... I am optimistic as long as we don't destroy ourselves in the process.

[CaptDukeNukem]

There it is... we don't care what you think, if you don't vote for it we quit. Even though we could have given strike notice and shut the whole thing down to keep pushing for more on the bottom end.

I don't believe you'll see any of the MEC/NC present the TA in that context, but rather calling a strike wasn't a 1.9B gamble they were ready to take, maybe you feel differently, that's fair. We were all pretty content with our representation on friday. The union's maximum leverage is at 11:59pm, although a lot of us would have liked to send the company a big nasty message and walked off the job, that doesn't actually add leverage.

Nobody is happy with this deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the absolute best they could achieve. If they've done their best and it isn't good enough for the membership, they'll walk away. That's not a threat, it's simply because they can't offer anything more.

I don't expect them to attempt to sell this TA (like in 2014) or threaten us with the potential consequences of voting it down but explain the details of the TA and how they reached it and then let the membership decide. I'm willing to wait for the details before deciding.

100%

Like the deal or not, this is what we have.

I know that these guys that were there making decisions in the moment had a hell of a job to do and were under unbelievable pressure. I know that they have done more for our group in the past 18 months than ACPA did in the previous 20 years.

Hear out the MEC and then we move forward.

Whether the vote goes for taking this deal and preparing for 2026/27 where we will get the rest of the WCC, or if the vote sends us back to the table or into arbitration with a new mandate... I am optimistic as long as we don't destroy ourselves in the process.

Are you actually pumping world class contract 2027 already?

Wow

[daedalusx]

We’ll get them next time

[altiplano]

I don't believe you'll see any of the MEC/NC present the TA in that context, but rather calling a strike wasn't a 1.9B gamble they were ready to take, maybe you feel differently, that's fair. We were all pretty content with our representation on friday. The union's maximum leverage is at 11:59pm, although a lot of us would have liked to send the company a big nasty message and walked off the job, that doesn't actually add leverage.

Nobody is happy with this deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the absolute best they could achieve. If they've done their best and it isn't good enough for the membership, they'll walk away. That's not a threat, it's simply because they can't offer anything more.

I don't expect them to attempt to sell this TA (like in 2014) or threaten us with the potential consequences of voting it down but explain the details of the TA and how they reached it and then let the membership decide. I'm willing to wait for the details before deciding.

100%

Like the deal or not, this is what we have.

I know that these guys that were there making decisions in the moment had a hell of a job to do and were under unbelievable pressure. I know that they have done more for our group in the past 18 months than ACPA did in the previous 20 years.

Hear out the MEC and then we move forward.

Whether the vote goes for taking this deal and preparing for 2026/27 where we will get the rest of the WCC, or if the vote sends us back to the table or into arbitration with a new mandate... I am optimistic as long as we don't destroy ourselves in the process.

Are you actually pumping world class contract 2027 already?

Wow

Not at all.

I'm saying that it's not all lost.

Whatever the outcome here, we have to keep the pressure and keep the focus on what our goals are. It's very possibly we won't achieve our expectations here. I'm over that and moving forward, I'm not going all hopeless and self defeating like I'm seeing from so many. I'm not going to sabotage our long game.

[Protonpilot]

Not at all.

I'm saying that it's not all lost.

Whatever the outcome here, we have to keep the pressure and keep the focus on what our goals are. It's very possibly we won't achieve our expectations here. I'm over that and moving forward, I'm not going all hopeless and self defeating like I'm seeing from so many. I'm not going to sabotage our long game.

Agreed.
We're three days into a two month ratification process, and none of us have had a detailed look at the TA with the real language and explanatory newsletters. It's coming. The scheduling changes, PBS, reserve changes, pension indexation are complex and can't be summarized in a few paragraphs. There's a reason the vote doesn't open five minutes after the announcement of a TA.
I'm also seeing pilots focusing on the number $1.9B. To me, that's a meaningless number that has no impact on my paycheque or quality of life. It's also just an accountant's assessment of the present value of the long term impact of the TA. There could be pension or benefit changes that have almost no cash impact next year, but get booked for hundreds of millions of dollars. Should I care? Well, I don't. I'm not an accountant. Would I feel differently if we were claiming it was worth $2.3B? Nope.
I want to learn what the TA means to our compensation and quality of life.
Some of us had expectations of a 100% pay raise for new hires and a 50% pay raise for everyone else. There's no TA in my universe of realistic outcomes that was going to deliver on those expectations. So if that's your Yes/No vote line, then cast your vote. I'm going to wait to judge the entire package once I've seen all the details.

[khedrei]

Not at all.

I'm saying that it's not all lost.

Whatever the outcome here, we have to keep the pressure and keep the focus on what our goals are. It's very possibly we won't achieve our expectations here. I'm over that and moving forward, I'm not going all hopeless and self defeating like I'm seeing from so many. I'm not going to sabotage our long game.

Agreed.
We're three days into a two month ratification process, and none of us have had a detailed look at the TA with the real language and explanatory newsletters. It's coming. The scheduling changes, PBS, reserve changes, pension indexation are complex and can't be summarized in a few paragraphs. There's a reason the vote doesn't open five minutes after the announcement of a TA.
I'm also seeing pilots focusing on the number $1.9B. To me, that's a meaningless number that has no impact on my paycheque or quality of life. It's also just an accountant's assessment of the present value of the long term impact of the TA. There could be pension or benefit changes that have almost no cash impact next year, but get booked for hundreds of millions of dollars. Should I care? Well, I don't. I'm not an accountant. Would I feel differently if we were claiming it was worth $2.3B? Nope.
I want to learn what the TA means to our compensation and quality of life.
Some of us had expectations of a 100% pay raise for new hires and a 50% pay raise for everyone else. There's no TA in my universe of realistic outcomes that was going to deliver on those expectations. So if that's your Yes/No vote line, then cast your vote. I'm going to wait to judge the entire package once I've seen all the details.

Percentages don't really mean anything you know that right? Watch, I'll prove it by quoting uncle Phil...

What's 15% of nothing?

[Hangry]

The MEC by giving us this to vote on has said this is the best they can do. We were never in a better position than now and this steaming pile is it. Betrayed again by the union. Maybe we'll never know what really happened. At this point it doesn't matter.
The Dino forum and slack group are just pure cringe.

By the way. Why is it always YUL and YWG? Honest question.

[flyinhigh]

Heres how I look at this from the outside looking in, so pleas be gentle on me.

I think this is a strategic ploy in the fact the MEC and such want it turned down. They have said, and are correct that if they went to arbitration that anything is game, however if presented to the group this is the starting point in arbitration. That is actually not a bad STARTING point.

Now, you all vote this down HARD!!!! The vote will close around the end of October, try to negotiate, serve 72 hr notice and now you walk over a holiday being remembrance day and/or US thanksgiving. While not major holidays for us in Canada for travel, it would certainly dominate the headlines.

Additionally, a strong NO vote tells the company to pound sand and the MEC has your full support.

[sstaurus]

I don't think there was any Master or Strategic plan here from the MEC. Likely there was government pressure, maybe an ultimatum, and the MEC was forced to put this out to the group for a vote. I'm not sure why the secrecy on that, and they can't say 'don't vote for this', but the silence speaks volumes. It's now up to us to provide a strong NO vote, and stop making it complicated. We will deal with what comes next. The extreme lack of QoL improvements is egregious.

[tango308]

Heres how I look at this from the outside looking in, so pleas be gentle on me.

I think this is a strategic ploy in the fact the MEC and such want it turned down. They have said, and are correct that if they went to arbitration that anything is game, however if presented to the group this is the starting point in arbitration. That is actually not a bad STARTING point.

Now, you all vote this down HARD!!!! The vote will close around the end of October, try to negotiate, serve 72 hr notice and now you walk over a holiday being remembrance day and/or US thanksgiving. While not major holidays for us in Canada for travel, it would certainly dominate the headlines.

Additionally, a strong NO vote tells the company to pound sand and the MEC has your full support.

Am I happy with the TA? Not really at the moment. I will however keep a clear mind and wait for the roadshows and make an educated opinion at that time.

The YUL LEC has come out publicly and told us that there was no secret ploy by the MEC. Labour Minister interference is more likely.

There is no evidence that this TA will be used as the starting point to go back to the table. There just seems to be a lot of contradiction on this topic on the various forums.

Keep in mind also that the Libs lost another seat last night. We NEED to get this contract wrapped-up before any election...it seems this could happen very fast now.

[Tbayer2021]

Heres how I look at this from the outside looking in, so pleas be gentle on me.

I think this is a strategic ploy in the fact the MEC and such want it turned down. They have said, and are correct that if they went to arbitration that anything is game, however if presented to the group this is the starting point in arbitration. That is actually not a bad STARTING point.

Now, you all vote this down HARD!!!! The vote will close around the end of October, try to negotiate, serve 72 hr notice and now you walk over a holiday being remembrance day and/or US thanksgiving. While not major holidays for us in Canada for travel, it would certainly dominate the headlines.

Additionally, a strong NO vote tells the company to pound sand and the MEC has your full support.

The TA-FAQ directly addresses this and it is actually the longest and most detailed answer in the folder. There is not master plan or genius 6D chess move being played here. I'm not sure where this notion that the TA would be the arbitrators starting point originated from, but is just flat out not the case.