Hmmmm, somebody's first post is asking Cat to expand on why he hates TC? I'm gonna call troll one this one.

They had to ask Cat to expand on that?

Star'Fox
Rank 0



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 1

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject:

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Can you elaborate on that Cat Driver?

Well Star Fox it is very simple to elaborate on why I am appalled at how flight training is regulated in Canada.

Lets start with who TC puts in the field as an inspector with the power to do anything he / she wants.

In the Pacific region we have a TC inspector by the name of Edited...JC

I will start to answer your question by using this individual as the perfect example of what is wrong in TC flight training.

As long as this type of individual is protected and remains in his position flight training regulation in Canada will be competing for the title of the lowest form of aviation regulation on earth.

So lets see how many instructors jump to Edited...JC
defense.

Niss:

I think you are quite off base on this.

An instructor, unlike a car mechanic, as has been stated here...only gets paid when they are flying. to do a good job with your students, give time for briefings, flying, an instructor can really only get about 2 1/2 hours a day of flying in and another hour of pre flight and post flight briefings.
Maybe three is all is well and the 'duty day' is not stretched to to 12 hours or so.

The realitiy, if an instructor worked a five day week or 40 hours od duty time, with holidays and stats, is 500 to 600 hours would be a fair amount.

to expect an instructor to instruct 100 hours a month , on average demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the industry and considerations like weather.

It is a Canadian left wing thing to expect everything so cheap. I just got back from a flight in Duxford, dual in a tiger moth...C$580.oo per hour. and you have to book a flight as they are booked up weeks in advance.

Thanks Cat Driver, I wasn't trying to attack anyone or anything like that I was just curious to what you thought was wrong with TC's flight training. Thanks for the answer.

This is my only account and I usually just read whats going on an as you can tell by my limited number of posts.


Niss by the way has a very warped view on flight training because he isn't going about it in the usual way. He doesn’t really know what flight schools are like because he has never had to deal with them.

Yeh, Star'Fox the people who own FTU's are in a very low return on their investment business.

With all the B.S. rules and paper work requirements that they must do to satisfy TC they are lucky to break even, and of course one should not be overly suprised at the generally poor quality of training when one looks at what instructors get paid.

The quality of instruction would go up if one could operate a flight training business without needing to hold a FTU OC.

Let the market determine the sucess or failure of a school.

The best argument I can put foward is my example of being at the mercy of a goon like Jim Dunn backed up by his superiors it's a miracle that anyone stays in business in flight training in Canada under this regime called Transport Canada.

Its not that I dont think instructors (especially good ones) are worth the money, I just dont believe in paying ANYONE for work they arent doing. Tell me, lets assume a flight instructor was getting paid for EVERY hour they worked (NOT just flight time, but ground time, waiting time etc.) would $20 - $25 be fair for a class 4? I would certainly think so.

The problem is that the flight instructors work so few PAYING hours, I get it. But in any other industry to demand more because you are working so few hours would not fly.

I would have no problem paying a much higher amount if all the money was going to an experienced instructor (as in free lancing), but it is un reasonable to expect for an instructor to make that much, the FTU to get their cut, and have anyone afford flight training.

I am not Anti-instructor.

Flight training doesn't have to be affordable....if you can't pay, then you don't fly...simple as that....BTW...very GAY looking moped

No instructor is dumb enough to ask for pay for hours they aren't working. Regardless of all the PR, hangar and a/c maint, paperwork and manning of the desk that can't be directly associated with an individual student there are plenty of hours an instructor invests specificly to individual students outside of flight times. Since class IVs seem to be your sticking point I'll refer to their work level, which is significantly higher because they lack the confidence and experience of the senior instructors. I think it's fair to say that for ever hour flown the instructor is doing another hour of ground work between lesson prep, log maintenance, and waiting for you to walk arround etc.

Then there is the fact that in any other type of instructing teachers and profs ARE payed for lesson prep time - what you keep refering to as hours that aren't work

Like I said, I think they should be paid for all hours that they do work, prep time, etc, and flight time.

Lets say the going rate (not to sure how accurate but just to crunch numbers) is $20/hr.

Lets say the instructor Flys for 20 hours in a week and does 20 hours of prep, cleaning, etc. Then I think the instructor should get 40 X $20 = $800.

If the instructor only flys 10 hrs and does 10 hrs of ground, prep, cleaning, etc. then I think the instructor should get 20 X $20 = $400 NOT 20 X $40 = $800.

I think that is fair.

Niss,

Can we just sum up your opinion that instructors should be paid for all the work they do, but the money should come out of thin air without students having to pay a penny more?

Then the rest of us can get back to discussing relivant things like whether there is something that can be done to actually improve the industry.

17 hours dual (min) * $20/hr (niss pay) = $340.

Is $340 worth it to put up with such a student/personality?

This is flight training, not haggling at the kensignton market.

niss wrote:For what it costs me to get my PPL at that rate, I could go learn a trade where I would make a decent wage for the hours I work.

I think you may have the answer here Niss. I've certainly heard this advice given by a lot of people! Anyone who gets a pilot's license in order to make a lot of money would be better off buying lottery tickets. I agree that instructors don't make enough money but there's not one of them who didn't profit from their instructors eating Kraft Dinner because of the low wages.

happily.retired wrote:Niss,

Can we just sum up your opinion that instructors should be paid for all the work they do, but the money should come out of thin air without students having to pay a penny more?

Well if they add some $ to the cost of the rentals then money can come from that, there is a bigger pool to pick from too.

If they add $10 to the rental and the a/c flies 50hrs (not sure if accurate but hypothetical) than thats another $500 that can go towards an instructors salary.

Restructure the way the FTU works. Dont have instructors hanging around the airport for free, get part timers and have days on and days off and pay per hour @ the airport and a bonus for the flying hours, that way should this part time job not suffice the instructor is not endangering anyone by working such long days like happily.retired and many others did.

At least then the instructor is getting paid for the hours they work and have a chance to make up for it when it isnt enough. Tighten things up, if the owner wants a full time instructor pay them a fair salary and an hourly bonus for flight time and keep them there all week.

Increase the rental costs a bit and increase the instructor rate a bit (10%) that way the student pays for what they use, the owner pays for what was used, and the instructor gets paid for their time that was used. No one gouges no one.

So it's more fair to have an oldtimer who hasn't used an instructor in decades pay more money than for students who actually use the instructors to pay their wage?

I still say this school is doing something good for the industry and good for their students.

No doubt that this particular school is doing a good thing. I was arguing against the hypothetical wage of $70/hr for an instructor, not with this particular school giving another $10 to its instructors.

So it's more fair to have an oldtimer who hasn't used an instructor in decades pay more money than for students who actually use the instructors to pay their wage?

Actually all the renter is doing is contributing to the markup used by the company to cover operating expenses, etc.

An instructors salary when doing ground prep, etc. is non revenue generating so the money as you pointed out has to come from somewhere. A small increese on the rental and the instructor fees spread out over how ever many rentals and training flights would allow for instructors to see more $ in their pocket.

That way the burdon is spread out over all the patrons of the FTU, and they dont loose any customers because they cant afford the training.

Add $20 - $30 per hr between the rental and the instruction and people can afford it. Double your instructor rate in one shot and people cant.

Atleast with the first one there are more students than less.

The answer is to get rid of the need for an FTU OC and all the B.S. that costs owners so much time and money.

Hey Cat,

For those of us who don't know the actual numbers, how much time and money does it take to get and maintain FTU OC? What portions of operations are actually monitored?

Recent experience says that it takes SIX MONTHS to get a very
basic FTU OC - one aircraft. That includes an MCM but no AMO,
so the FTU is virtually guaranteed to lose money because you
must contract out your maintenance.

Any financially successful FTU will have it's own AMO and do it's own
maintenance, but to get even the simplest AMO (one aircraft type)
is likely going to take you another year.

Remember, NONE of this is required in the USA. The day you
do your initial flight instructor test, you can buy a buck fifty
and start instructing.

There has NEVER been any explanation from the regulator as
to why all this incredible, unnecessary paperwork burden exists.

And now in Ontario, the provincial government has now passed
a law requiring all FTU's to pay $10,000 per year to register as
a "career college".

One must wonder if there is in fact any adult supervision in our
national and provincial capitols. It's really hard to avoid concluding
that our government is completely out of touch with reality.

Hey Cat,

For those of us who don't know the actual numbers, how much time and money does it take to get and maintain FTU OC? What portions of operations are actually monitored?

Happily-retired that is a difficult question to answer because a lot depends on where you wish to set it up.

There is a very big difference between setting up in a small town in say Alberta with their low tax structure and the low cost of rental or ownership than compared to lets say Toronto Island.

But you have to put in place enough hardware to pass the initial inspection for the FTU and of course an airplane is a must.

It has been six years since my last application and I am not sure exactly what it cost me to get it to the point of passing the inspection. ( which I did by the way. ) I had a class one on the payroll for months during the process and he was paid a very good salary during the start up process and had the school opened he was to be paid $50.00 for every hour the airplane flew dual or solo.

The fees were $600.00 for the flight training inspection and $400.00 for the M&M inspection. ( It was M&M who was the problem in my application. )

Anyhow you must be perepared for months of waiting while the paper work is approved and all that costs money.

I also had a school from 1986 to 1991 with six singles , one twin and one R22 helicopter plus my own maintenance set up..you don't have to go back to school to figure out that cost a lot of money, the R22 on floats was $170,000 just on its own.

The bottom line is unless you have a fair amount of money you want to risk with the possibility of earning around 5% profit on it starting a school is very risky money wise.

Maybe I'm a bit off on the earning 5% bit but it is close.

On the other hand why can't a Canadian citizen with an instructors license just start up and run a school without all the B.S. you have to go through for the FTU OC dance with TC.

Is it because TC feels you instructors are untrustworthy and don't know what you are doing? If that is the case why did they give you the license in the first place.

It doesen't make sense to license someone and as part of the licenseing process comes understanding the rules...so why in fu.k can't you run a school if you are qualified without having to spend all that effort and time playing paper work games with TC?

By the way I have also owned two charter OC's which were a bit more profitable than the schools.

Do you mean that a rookie instructor can start up on their own in the States? The equivalent of our class IVs? That's a bit scary, a class II or I sure but a class IV running the show

NISS,

The school that I worked at required me to be at work much longer than full time hours, I think that you should look at it like a school paying instructors a salary.

Even if it's only $30,000 per year which I feel is fair for a job that you have to work more than 40 hours per week. The rate that you pay would have to go up.

You are paying your instructor like $25 per hour right?

Are you paying him for flight time or you fair enough to pay him for all the time that he spends with you waiting for you to get the plane ready and bullshitting ect?? I think that you probably don’t pay him for all the time that you use him for.

$140 per hour is really cheep for any airplane. How a school makes any money is beyond me. A 172 should be like $200 per hour. What does your plane cost you to fly per hour over the year?

SayWhat wrote:It's interesting the confluence of events. First we have the Ontario Ministry of Colleges trying to eliminate commercial instruction in Ontario. Now we have TA and CFA increasing rates by another $10 to attract instructors. How long before the commercial licence become so expensive that we have FOs complaining that on their wages, they can’t pay off their $80,000 of loans to get as far as they did? I’m not saying any of this is bad, but very interesting.

If that is ever the case then the aviation industry in canada will be more like other industries, like being a doctor... where the education is so expensive that there are less doctors because of it, and as a result the graduates are more valued and becuase there will be less to choose from will be paid more as a result.

Its starting to get like this for Captains with lots of bush/specialty experience. Companies up north are having to pay more to keep guys around.

Roger Perdactor.

Taxi Driver wrote: Are you paying him for flight time or you fair enough to pay him for all the time that he spends with you waiting for you to get the plane ready and bullshitting ect?? I think that you probably don’t pay him for all the time that you use him for.

If my instructor felt it was fair to charge me for the time that was spent on the ground waiting for me to preflight, etc. I would have no problem with it. I allready factor ground briefings into the hours to pay the instructor.

If I spend 1hr in the air and 15min on the ground with the instructor I pay 1.25hr.

So now thtat is has been a week or so since the rate increase how has this affected bookings?