hiring at Jazz!!!

[mattedfred]

i've never done either an ACJ or AC medical

although both are done by the same doctors, are the standards exactly the same?

even each CAME has different standards as some of the procedures in the CAME Manual are quite subjective

[GTFA]

Get a grip Inverted2. Employers are allowed to assess someone before they hire them. Just because you have a pilots license doesn't mean they HAVE to hire you. What if your a Jerk? Would it be discrimination if they didn't want you? Try doing the medical at AC. If you had trouble with the Jazz medical, AC will really cause you to become "disabled".

As previously stated, it's the same medical perfored by the same Docs.

As for your statement of employers rights to assess your medical fitness prior to employment I have to disagree. Where will this stop, with advances in medical science and gentic screening would you feel it's OK for an employer or an insurance company to not hire or insure you because you had a high likelyhood of developing a disease in the distant future.
I'd imagine your attitude would change pretty quickly if you had a genetic marker that meant you were predispositioned to develop a certain type of cancer and because of this you couldn't find decent employment in any field because you would become an expensive burden later in life.
As the poor working schmucks we need to stand together and stop large corporations from pushing these cost cutting measures, not insult a guy because he couldn't get through a medical that you could.

So then, all a shmuck has to do is apply for a job and the company will be forced to hire him? How would you feel about that if you were an employer? Other than minimum qualifications what crieria ARE acceptable to assess and compare applicants? Not passing a medical is not an insult, it just is what it is provided that the determining criteria are reasonable. What the working schmuck needs to do is help determine what is reasonable.

It stops when it no longer works.

[Stinky]

Who said anything about using only minimum required qualifications. Use all of the candidates qualifications, hours, education, leadership etc. , but when it comes to medical issues passing a cat 1 should be sufficient., any other medical issues are between the patient and doctor and are none of the companies business.

[mattedfred]

to anyone that goes for an interview:

please ask what you should expect your take home pay to be every 2 weeks

you are required to pay union dues, pension contributions, a % of your group benefits as well a part of the cost of your first uniform even before you contribute to CPP and UI

shoe allowance, uniform cleaning allowance, any profit sharing/bonuses, per diems and overtime should be considered separately

i would prefer if you made an informed decision so you don't regret your decision once you start working at jazz and see your fist pay stub

[rudder]

Get a grip Inverted2. Employers are allowed to assess someone before they hire them. Just because you have a pilots license doesn't mean they HAVE to hire you. What if your a Jerk? Would it be discrimination if they didn't want you? Try doing the medical at AC. If you had trouble with the Jazz medical, AC will really cause you to become "disabled".

As previously stated, it's the same medical perfored by the same Docs.

As for your statement of employers rights to assess your medical fitness prior to employment I have to disagree. Where will this stop, with advances in medical science and gentic screening would you feel it's OK for an employer or an insurance company to not hire or insure you because you had a high likelyhood of developing a disease in the distant future.
I'd imagine your attitude would change pretty quickly if you had a genetic marker that meant you were predispositioned to develop a certain type of cancer and because of this you couldn't find decent employment in any field because you would become an expensive burden later in life.
As the poor working schmucks we need to stand together and stop large corporations from pushing these cost cutting measures, not insult a guy because he couldn't get through a medical that you could.

Whatever medical screening Jazz is doing isn't working well anyway. Almost 10% of the pilots are already on medical leave

[GTFA]

Doe anyone out there know what criteria any airline who does medical assesments have that are above and beyond, or not considered for a Cat I medical?

Let's get to the bottom of this...

[teacher]

One thing AC and Jazz do for sure is a blood screen and pee test(tox screen). The blood test I believe is for a multitude of things like over drinking (liver enzyme I think), I've also heard of guys finding out they have cancer on the blood screen! As for the pee test/tox screen well, that's obvious.

[4hrstovegas]

I just did a supplementary medical for a 704 operator this week. Drug/alcohol screening, fitness test (range of motion, lifting technique/ability), visual acuity, audio, full history. They want to make sure I'm not hired and then refuse to do many of the duties required after I'm onboard. I'm OK with that, cuz that means they won't be hiring a copilot for me with a Cat 1 who won't do anything remotely strenuous. Although this may not apply to larger operators where union guys are doing a lot of the grunt work, I don't disagree with the policy. It just makes sure that both parties are a good fit. At least there are objective criteria against which one is judged. Now, as for the airline cog tests, and the criteria for an "acceptable" result... whoa!

[GTFA]

Better read this folks: http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/pdf/poldrgalceng.pdf

Make sure you read the WHOLE thing.

Has anyone challenged the testing purposes and procedures?

[Stinky]

I don't think we're screened for drug or alcohol use, when the doctor went over the results of the blood test with me it seemed like standard stuff like cholestorol levels. He never mentioned my heavy drug use.

[North Shore]

As for the pee test/tox screen well, that's obvious.

As if it's any of Jazz's business what you do on your own time as long as you show up for work on their time clean, sober, well rested, and fit to do your job...

[GTFA]

I didn't see any smilies or other signs signalling your facetiousness, so I have to ask:

Your kidding right?

GTFA

[teacher]

The nurse who did the litmus test was telling me (without using names) of the funny excuses people use when testing positive for cocaine, weed and other fun drugs. If it wasn't a drug screen than what was it.

[rudder]

As for the pee test/tox screen well, that's obvious.

As if it's any of Jazz's business what you do on your own time as long as you show up for work on their time clean, sober, well rested, and fit to do your job...

Most large airline Operations Manuals prohibit the use of illegal controlled substances at any time!


Good luck fighting that at the Human Rights Tribunal.

[Stinky]

The Doctor told me that the details of the medical weren't released to the company, it was simply fit or unfit. To what standard, I don't know.
I had a minor issue and didn't pass initially, I wasn't kicked out on my ass, he prescribed me some medication and I came back a week later and passed. When I came back the second time I asked him what they did if I failed again and he said they would continue to work with me to try to resolve the issue.

[North Shore]

GTFA, no, I'm not kidding. If a company wants to pay me 24/7, then they get to dictate what I can and can't do for relaxation in my time away from work. If not, then as long as I show up and conduct myself in a professional manner, no problem.

rudder: I'm sure that the ops manuals do indeed say that. My point is that I don't believe that they should.

In any case, if you are stupid enough to show up for a medical at a company that requires them, in anything other than a state of 100% fitness (in terms of things that you have control over) then..

[mattedfred]

The pee pee test for the Category 1 Medical is for sugar levels only. TC does not require any other pee pee test for pilots. The same nurse may be testing for drugs in the pee pee of truck drivers as I believe that it is required.


North Shore: Who do you work for as I would like to tell everyone I care about that they shouldn't travel with your company because one of the pilots may be using illegal drugs before the flight? Do you have any idea how prolonged the affect of any illegal drug may be on the average adult male?

[Just another canuck]

North Shore: Who do you work for as I would like to tell everyone I care about that they shouldn't travel with your company because one of the pilots may be using illegal drugs before the flight? Do you have any idea how prolonged the affect of any illegal drug may be on the average adult male?

I believe we already discussed this for several pages in a marijuana thread... like usual, many had to agree to disagree. Personally, if I had to lean towards a side, it's North Shore's.

mattedfred, I don't know off hand the prolonged effects of illegal drugs, but I'm sure it's not what you think it is either. What one person does on their own time is their own business, no one elses... not Jazz or any other employer.

[mattedfred]

i can't believe that there are pilots out there that think it is a good idea to argue the fact that a pilot should be allowed to smoke dope when they aren't on duty

here is why you shouldn't:

1. it is illegal to smoke dope
2. it is illegal to operate an aircraft while you are UNFIT and you CANNOT guarantee your level of fitness after smoking dope
3. for most of us a criminal record would get us fired as we may not be able to maintain a RAIC or travel to the USA
4. if you are an ALPA pilot like myself then it is against our Code of Ethics

keep this thread going and perhaps the CAME Manual will get a little longer

truck driver's piss is tested for 30 things i believe, while pilots are tested for ONLY 1

[Just another canuck]

You do make some solid and convincing points mattedfred. I won't argue with you there. Just for the record, I don't partake in illegal combustibles anymore... too old for that shit. But I also don't agree with the laws in place for it or with ALPA's code of ethics, etc. If they have that in there, they should have no drinking as well. Criminal record??? Do you get record for getting caught with pot??? No matter.

Let's not get this thread going in a different direction... everyone has their own feeling on the subject and we'll leave it at that.

Are they still calling guys for interviews? I understand that there are many positions still to be filled, but have all interviews taken place?

[mattedfred]

there is a BIG difference between disagreeing with a law and disobeying it

i support the decriminalization of mary jane as well but i do not support the legalization of it

i forgot to mention that canadian airline employees may also be subject to random drug screening by the TSA during the screening process

i highly recommend that you review the ALPA Code of Ethics before you pursue a job at ACJ

i have no idea what the status of the hiring is right now but i would ask the interviewer if they are forecasting any furloughs in 2009 or 2010

[mattedfred]

ALPA Code of Ethics

An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.

• He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety.

• He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.

• Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.

• Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.

• If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.

An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.

• He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.

• He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.

• He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will insist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.

• He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.

• He will remember that a full month’s salary demands a full and fair month’s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.

• He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.

• He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.

• He will hold his airline’s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.

An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.

• He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.

• If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member’s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.

• An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.

• While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.

An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.

• He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.

• He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.

• An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he take advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.

• He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.

An Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.

• He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.

• He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.

• He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.

• He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.

• He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry, the profession, or ALPA.

• He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.

Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called…an AIRLINE PILOT.

[Canoehead]

i can't believe that there are pilots out there that think it is a good idea to argue the fact that a pilot should be allowed to smoke dope when they aren't on duty

here is why you shouldn't:

1. it is illegal to smoke dope
2. it is illegal to operate an aircraft while you are UNFIT and you CANNOT guarantee your level of fitness after smoking dope
3. for most of us a criminal record would get us fired as we may not be able to maintain a RAIC or travel to the USA
4. if you are an ALPA pilot like myself then it is against our Code of Ethics

keep this thread going and perhaps the CAME Manual will get a little longer

truck driver's piss is tested for 30 things i believe, while pilots are tested for ONLY 1

I agree completely with you. I was just reading the accident report on the Perimeter crash at Shamattawa (SP?), and the F/O was found to have trace levels of THC in his system. I wonder what the payout was to his widow and children (assuming he had) from his life insurance provider when they saw that in the final report. Anyone taking chances like that is a fool. Insurance companies will look for ANY reason to deny benefits.
mattedfred, I wonder if ALPA would still be willing to pay the $20K to our families if we were killed on the job, and were in violation of regs/COM/code-of-ethics (ie: positive for drugs/alcohol)?
Also, do you think or know if our insurance carrier at Jazz would have anything to do with requiring pre-hire medicals?

FWIW, I have a friend who is alive today because the AC doctor spotted irregular blood work numbers. Needless to say, he didn't get hired, but he did survive what would have been certain death because of it. Sometimes there are silver linings in those clouds.

[GTFA]

Regarding the ALPA code of ethics;

As yourelf why. Why the code of ethics? Why such high standards? Why such focus on public image?

GTFA

[AuxBatOn]

Regarding the ALPA code of ethics;

As yourelf why. Why the code of ethics? Why such high standards? Why such focus on public image?

GTFA

Because pilots are professionals? Images for professionnals (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc) is very important. Maintaining a reputation of trust ,confidence and good ethics with the public is crucial in their employment. What do you think Joe that flies on a Jazz Aircraft would think if the FO or, god forbid, the Capt smoked dope during his down time (because he thinks it's a stupid law)? Would he feel confident in and trust the pilots' abilities? What else is the pilot willing to do that is against the laws/regulations? Will he break a rule that he does not feel is important while operating the aircraft?