College of Pilots

[Beefitarian]

Like cncpc, it doesn't matter to me personally if a company wants my urine. However I also am opposed to them wanting to check others for it apart from, "Are you impaired at work." something that seems to be impossible to do. In fact the random screening is basically useless as I have heard much, "I totally passed the drug test." from many potheads at work at those places.

I have had to provide a urine sample for many of the worst jobs I have had including delivering drywall. Just a hunch but the Airlines probably are allready doing this.

Which makes it Okay for a "college" to wander onto the scene and make it SOP? How paranoid are we becoming. To be honest, if I had a job installing drywall, I'd probably be strung out on drugs to get through the day!

Nope. I just think it's funny that 126.75 thinks it would be huge new and radical innovation that could revolutionize the aviation industry. But saddle up with Cat here and assume I'm attacking you weed smoking dudes. Or switch dealers, different strains produce less paranoia than others.

[trey kule]

Self edited to stay on the thread topic

[Doc]

Okay, nothing has ever been said by anybody at the "college" about random drug testing. The industry's problems are NOT drug or alcohol abuse. Don't know where this is going, but I find it counterproductive. Shall we try to stay on topic?

[cncpc]

Self edited because, as Doc pointed out, the College has never said it was going to be doing drug testing.

[Beefitarian]

Aaaaahhhhh Doc's right this is silly idea that isn't going to fly. Pun intended. Some one makes a laughable suggestion that's not really relevant to much of anything and there's suddenly an Internet slap fight. How are you going to get real guys to show up to actual meetings and get along etc?

[flyinthebug]

The major part of the 703 fixed wing industry is dysfunctional in terms of professional management and its structure. Its managers are almost entirely pilots. It is worth saying that no other business anywhere employs pilots as managers. In business terms, senior managers are those with technical skills, normally the prime skills for front line managers. They are not people with the two most important skills of top level managers, those being conceptual skills and planning skills. Many of them also lack the most important mid level manager skill, that of human relations.

Structurally the 703 fixed wing industry is a scattered, highly disorganized group of marginal operations struggling to survive. Some within that have a barely functional system of accounting and almost no financial management, or financial management that operates on the basis of wrong assumptions about financial management. All of this leads to desperation and bottom of the barrel approaches to providing service. With pilot supply exceeding demand at this level, and human relations skills either low or non existent in management, pilots are looking at very poor compensation for their work.

cncpc...

You are certainly on your soap box in this thread! I was going to leave this alone, but after you personally attacked my friend Cat Driver, that made it personal. I take personal offence to these blanket statements about working on the 703 level. I think you are painting the picture with a single brush, and that is not fair or accurate.

I am proud to be involved in management on the 703/704 level (for the last 14 yrs). I believe I did a good job as both a CP and Ops Mgr. One of the larger 703 ops I was with as Ops Mgr had a 27 yr accident free record which the owner (and team) were very proud of. When I left that company 4 1/2 yrs later, we were 31 1/2 yrs accident free. I held a team of young people together for over 3 years before ANY of them left. Safety was never a financial issue with us, and if it needed replacing, it got replaced. I never once got grief from my owner if we needed 7 grand for boots for the PA31, or 50 grand for an engine. We put safety FIRST always and thats why our company lasted 31 + years without a single accident.

You suggest that managers on this level lack "human relations"...If that was the case, how did we hold an entire team of 37 people together for over 3 years? God knows it wasnt the huge salaries that kept them there!

The bottom line is that some 703 Ops do it by the book and work incredibly hard to make flying at this level, every bit as safe as on the 705 level. For you to make such an ignorant blanket statement, shows how out of touch you truly are with the industry overall. the RCMP, Sask Power, SE(RM), Sask Health, Health Canada, FSIN, just to name a few, all flew with us on a regular basis and never questioned the professionalism of our pilots or the safety of our equipment. And yes I also flew as Ops Manager, but after a few years with them, I recognized the need for me to be in the office more than out flying around. I took my position of responsibility VERY seriously, and in my 4th year with them, I think I may have flown 90 hours at the most. I recognized the need for a full time manager at the base, and gave up some "cool" charters to attend to my business.

I will conceed it is a difficult job at the best of times. Many 703 ops arent as fortunate as we were, and they struggle with making the bills every month. But to blatently attack all 703 ops as places with no real managers, lacking important management skills, is just wrong. I take great pride in what we accomplished on the 703 level of aviation. I hold 2 college degrees and believe it was my "skills" that helped make my company profitable, safe, and a happy place to work. If it wasnt, the team would have fractured LONG before 3 years rolled around.

You may not be a fan of the college and thats fine. But to attack an entire level of our industry with most of your info coming from threads like those on Sonic Blue etc, does not paint an accurate picture of what life is like on the 703 level. I could list a dozen well manged and SAFE 703 ops...but why bother?

You told Cat to get a life? Maybe you could take your own advice on that one. If you dont show respect for a pilot thats flown 25,000+ hours, in 100 different aircraft (703,704,705) and survived 55 years of aviation...how could you show any respect for a decent group of individuals that are trying to make a difference with our industry?

To TomM and all those that support this undertaking...keep up the good work!
Rant over.

Fly safe all.

[B_Boomer_54]

I'm not sure what you're in a high dither about here, but this had nothing to do with you. It had to do with someone up above making a proposal that would kill dead this College idea, a proposal for piss tests for professionalism. I simply asked you if you were on board with that. You took the opportunity to redraw the border of absurdity to where you think it should be, tell us that you had a successful career and how you are better than most of us and how you are insulted and will not respond further to such ignorance.

And yet you nominate yourself for the board of this College and make a post like this that demonstrates how wholly unfit you would be for that position.

Grow up. Get a life. The world isn't all about you and some guy named Merlin who did you wrong.

Pray to God these guys don't get going and decide to have a test for simple comprehension of how paranoia can arise from reading a few innocent words.

You see CNCPC, there is NO point in going against the grain here. You, I ... can be 100% correct, have the best intentions yet be steam rolled by those who dogmatic and think that their way is the best way. In some ways, they are exactly what they condemn. That is why I learned to take most things I read here with a grain of salt. I also find the topic of "looking to be offended" the #1 recurring theme of the last 90 days. You will also notice people will not respond to you if you shut them out. I often ask myself...do pilots really have ego problems ? I see no evidence of this day to day.

For those of you who cannot sense sarcasm, the last two sentences were not serious. It was complete sarcasm. That means I did not literally mean it.

Jesus mate, YOU had better hope they don't find a way to filter out ass holes!

I recall not too long ago, you pushed the "I don't give a rats ass if you're offended" attitude. You could care less if people think you're a complete asshole. Has it ever occurred to you that people are learning by your example? Or do we have a strong case of " do as I say but not as I do" ?

[cncpc]

The major part of the 703 fixed wing industry is dysfunctional in terms of professional management and its structure. Its managers are almost entirely pilots. It is worth saying that no other business anywhere employs pilots as managers. In business terms, senior managers are those with technical skills, normally the prime skills for front line managers. They are not people with the two most important skills of top level managers, those being conceptual skills and planning skills. Many of them also lack the most important mid level manager skill, that of human relations.

Structurally the 703 fixed wing industry is a scattered, highly disorganized group of marginal operations struggling to survive. Some within that have a barely functional system of accounting and almost no financial management, or financial management that operates on the basis of wrong assumptions about financial management. All of this leads to desperation and bottom of the barrel approaches to providing service. With pilot supply exceeding demand at this level, and human relations skills either low or non existent in management, pilots are looking at very poor compensation for their work.

cncpc...

You are certainly on your soap box in this thread! I was going to leave this alone, but after you personally attacked my friend Cat Driver, that made it personal. I take personal offence to these blanket statements about working on the 703 level. I think you are painting the picture with a single brush, and that is not fair or accurate.

I am proud to be involved in management on the 703/704 level (for the last 14 yrs). I believe I did a good job as both a CP and Ops Mgr. One of the larger 703 ops I was with as Ops Mgr had a 27 yr accident free record which the owner (and team) were very proud of. When I left that company 4 1/2 yrs later, we were 31 1/2 yrs accident free. I held a team of young people together for over 3 years before ANY of them left. Safety was never a financial issue with us, and if it needed replacing, it got replaced. I never once got grief from my owner if we needed 7 grand for boots for the PA31, or 50 grand for an engine. We put safety FIRST always and thats why our company lasted 31 + years without a single accident.

You suggest that managers on this level lack "human relations"...If that was the case, how did we hold an entire team of 37 people together for over 3 years? God knows it wasnt the huge salaries that kept them there!

The bottom line is that some 703 Ops do it by the book and work incredibly hard to make flying at this level, every bit as safe as on the 705 level. For you to make such an ignorant blanket statement, shows how out of touch you truly are with the industry overall. the RCMP, Sask Power, SE(RM), Sask Health, Health Canada, FSIN, just to name a few, all flew with us on a regular basis and never questioned the professionalism of our pilots or the safety of our equipment. And yes I also flew as Ops Manager, but after a few years with them, I recognized the need for me to be in the office more than out flying around. I took my position of responsibility VERY seriously, and in my 4th year with them, I think I may have flown 90 hours at the most. I recognized the need for a full time manager at the base, and gave up some "cool" charters to attend to my business.

I will conceed it is a difficult job at the best of times. Many 703 ops arent as fortunate as we were, and they struggle with making the bills every month. But to blatently attack all 703 ops as places with no real managers, lacking important management skills, is just wrong. I take great pride in what we accomplished on the 703 level of aviation. I hold 2 college degrees and believe it was my "skills" that helped make my company profitable, safe, and a happy place to work. If it wasnt, the team would have fractured LONG before 3 years rolled around.

You may not be a fan of the college and thats fine. But to attack an entire level of our industry with most of your info coming from threads like those on Sonic Blue etc, does not paint an accurate picture of what life is like on the 703 level. I could list a dozen well manged and SAFE 703 ops...but why bother?

You told Cat to get a life? Maybe you could take your own advice on that one. If you dont show respect for a pilot thats flown 25,000+ hours, in 100 different aircraft (703,704,705) and survived 55 years of aviation...how could you show any respect for a decent group of individuals that are trying to make a difference with our industry?

To TomM and all those that support this undertaking...keep up the good work!
Rant over.

Fly safe all.

This thread isn't about who your friends are or what you find "personal". It is about a proposal to unilaterally and secretively create an organization that will restrict the manner in which already professional pilots can practice that profession, or if they can at all.

You now come into it with a defense of a friend and what you see as my comments on an entire industry. That is fine, but please be accurate about what I said.

If you read the first three words of the part you quoted, you will see that I was speaking of "..the major part". In order for you to give your argument greater effect, you completely ignored that and painted the picture of my "attacking" your friend and an entire industry. I didn't attack an entire industry and it is disingenious of you to say so. I made the observation that the College must consider where its proposals fit against the background of the fixed wing 703 industry. I listed some of the problems of that portion of the industry. There is no industry analyst in Canada that would not agree that those problems are accurately stated. No person who can read would argue that those comments apply to the entire industry. They apply to that part of the industry in which those problems arise that the College proposes to remedy. Can a College remedy poor management skills in some operations, or marginal financing? Is limiting the pilot supply a remedy to that? Is urine testing a remedy to that?

I don't dispute that you can name a dozen good operators. I'm sure there are hundreds. But none of this is about good operators.

It is unfortunate that this thread has gotten into this little dispute. However, it is your friend who began the hostility with his comments about absurdity and ignorance. Those are personal comments and they were responded to by logic at first, and then by a personal overreaction on my part. I responded to a slap with a baseball bat and for that I apologize. I do not believe that Cat needs to get a life or that he has to grow up. Those were inappropriate comments.

It seemed to be a bit of a sidetrack in which 126.7 began to go on about urine testing and linking that to professionalism and ended with Doc saying that I should hope the College did not choose to involve itself in proctological investigations.

It doesn't matter that Cat has 25,000 hours and 55 years of flying in over 100 airplane types. He misinterpreted what I had to say about urine testing and the College. The fact that I responded to a personal attack in what I acknowledge was a disrespectful way does not mean that I disrespect those working to form the College. It also doesn't mean that if I disrespected Cat, you and your colleagues in this venture are right.

I'm sure you are a very capable aviation manager and I commend you for that. But you're obviously not a manager that I was speaking about and you knew that when you made your response deliberately misstating what I said. I do not find that commendable and it concerns me that if you use that tactic against someone who attacked your friend, what will you do to advance the objectives of the College?

[Cat Driver]

cncpc, thanks for clarifying your position here.

At this point in time I do not know enough about the college to be for or against their venture.

One thing you can count on is when or if I decide to be actively involved I will do so knowing that I will have to live with what I decide to do because I am still active in flying for a living and use my real name here on this forum.

[Doc]

The "college"? Good points? Bad points?
Back on track children.
What I see here, in the last few posts (yes, I'm a wee bit guilty as well) is THE very reason a "college" will NEVER work. Nobody has the slightest interest/capability to stay on track. We have ten (give or take) guys trying to work WITH 23000 pilots.
It'll NEVER fly......the previous few posts seem to support my hypotheses!

[cncpc]

cncpc, thanks for clarifying your position here.

At this point in time I do not know enough about the college to be for or against their venture.

One thing you can count on is when or if I decide to be actively involved I will do so knowing that I will have to live with what I decide to do because I am still active in flying for a living and use my real name here on this forum.

Yep, I was out of line on that one.

I know we should all be for the idea of improvement and change.

[flyinthebug]

The major part of the 703 fixed wing industry is dysfunctional in terms of professional management and its structure. Its managers are almost entirely pilots. It is worth saying that no other business anywhere employs pilots as managers. In business terms, senior managers are those with technical skills, normally the prime skills for front line managers. They are not people with the two most important skills of top level managers, those being conceptual skills and planning skills. Many of them also lack the most important mid level manager skill, that of human relations.

Structurally the 703 fixed wing industry is a scattered, highly disorganized group of marginal operations struggling to survive. Some within that have a barely functional system of accounting and almost no financial management, or financial management that operates on the basis of wrong assumptions about financial management. All of this leads to desperation and bottom of the barrel approaches to providing service. With pilot supply exceeding demand at this level, and human relations skills either low or non existent in management, pilots are looking at very poor compensation for their work.

This thread isn't about who your friends are or what you find "personal". It is about a proposal to unilaterally and secretively create an organization that will restrict the manner in which already professional pilots can practice that profession, or if they can at all.

You now come into it with a defense of a friend and what you see as my comments on an entire industry. That is fine, but please be accurate about what I said.

If you read the first three words of the part you quoted, you will see that I was speaking of "..the major part". In order for you to give your argument greater effect, you completely ignored that and painted the picture of my "attacking" your friend and an entire industry. I didn't attack an entire industry and it is disingenious of you to say so. I made the observation that the College must consider where its proposals fit against the background of the fixed wing 703 industry. I listed some of the problems of that portion of the industry. There is no industry analyst in Canada that would not agree that those problems are accurately stated. No person who can read would argue that those comments apply to the entire industry. They apply to that part of the industry in which those problems arise that the College proposes to remedy. Can a College remedy poor management skills in some operations, or marginal financing? Is limiting the pilot supply a remedy to that? Is urine testing a remedy to that?

I don't dispute that you can name a dozen good operators. I'm sure there are hundreds. But none of this is about good operators.

It is unfortunate that this thread has gotten into this little dispute. However, it is your friend who began the hostility with his comments about absurdity and ignorance. Those are personal comments and they were responded to by logic at first, and then by a personal overreaction on my part. I responded to a slap with a baseball bat and for that I apologize. I do not believe that Cat needs to get a life or that he has to grow up. Those were inappropriate comments.

It seemed to be a bit of a sidetrack in which 126.7 began to go on about urine testing and linking that to professionalism and ended with Doc saying that I should hope the College did not choose to involve itself in proctological investigations.

It doesn't matter that Cat has 25,000 hours and 55 years of flying in over 100 airplane types. He misinterpreted what I had to say about urine testing and the College. The fact that I responded to a personal attack in what I acknowledge was a disrespectful way does not mean that I disrespect those working to form the College. It also doesn't mean that if I disrespected Cat, you and your colleagues in this venture are right.

I'm sure you are a very capable aviation manager and I commend you for that. But you're obviously not a manager that I was speaking about and you knew that when you made your response deliberately misstating what I said. I do not find that commendable and it concerns me that if you use that tactic against someone who attacked your friend, what will you do to advance the objectives of the College?

cncpc...

Thank you for your response. I conceed that I may have let emotion run my keyboard, and for that I also offer my apology. I believe we can have a discussion about things we disagree about, without having to resort to name calling. Thank you for offering your clarity.

Back to the thread...

I think it is important to point out that I have no vested (or otherwise) interest in this college. Infact, it has just been since the life of this thread that I have restarted any communication with them, or renewed interest in the topic.

A few years ago, the idea was brought up. I initially was onboard but sadly, for me, things seemed to deteriorate between certain members of the (former) board and I no longer felt that anything positive could come from the constant bickering.

Now a new leader has emerged. He has taken alot of his personal time to try to address all our questions, and for that he deserves at least our respect? How can you equate his efforts to a (using your words) secretive society? The President of the board outted himself...knowing full well he would be attacked for taking this position. He is answering all our questions and asking for our input. How is that a secretive society?

Perhaps you are as anti-union as I am. I dont believe in them, nor do I condone their existance. They were formed with good intentions, but became just a haven for the lazy and uninclined. I see this college as more of an association (TomM pls correct me if im wrong here) who`s main function would be a mentoring role. Do doctors not seek immediate entrance to their college upon grad? Why should we be any different? Hell even social workers have their own association. I believe this industry is long overdue for a college. One that belonging to would mean something. That is the only agenda I have is to see a college in place that would provide some much needed oversight of our industry, as well as mentoring inexperienced pilots as they make their way. I only wish we had that to turn to when we graduated. We just fire off 40 resumes and do road trips in hopes that we will get a job on the dock or ramp. A college would help alleviate some of the problems at very least.

I see this group of individuals as people who are volunteering their time in an effort to better our industry. I dont understand why we cant at least try to rally around this idea? They are not seeking to become just another layer of bureacracy (sp?), but rather a voice in the industry that is currently void and empty. They are not using any smoke and mirror tactics and they are answering our questions. Isnt that at least worth asking some more questions before you unilaterally shut down the idea?

You yourself said that there are likely 100 good 703 ops in Canada. I would tend to agree with you, but its the other 100 or so you would be worried about? I agree! Why again would we not want a recognized body such as a college, that we could turn to when TCA is ignoring us? For the record though, that is why I was personally offended when you stated the "Major part of 703" was dysfunctional...inferring that "most or all were in this category". I did not purposely mistate what you said, nor did I ignore it. I simply let emotion take over and at that point, a loss of common sense tends to take over as well. I just wanted to be clear that its not even the "majority" of 703 ops that are "bad". Id say to be honest its about 65/35 to the good.

Listen, I am not suggesting that piss tests by the college are an ideal way for them to go. Im not even suggesting that im fully onside with the idea yet...as my reservations from the previous group leaves me wondering if this could truly ever work. With the new leadership and transparency of this group, I do believe we should all at least give them our attention and see if we can debate and discuss our disagreements and perhaps even find a compromise or two. I dont like absolute(ism) on any level, and it seems that some of the people on your side of this issue are absolutely against the idea of a college. I would ask you to please explain to us why you are unwilling to even hear them out? They are asking for ALL our input, as transparent as it comes...and yet your side of this debate absolutely no way no how. Even Doc who is someone I hold in very high regard in real life, is too absolute about his position on this issue. My only hope is we can begin a dialogue with open minds... LISTEN to what TomM and his board have to say and than make a decision based on all the facts. We tend to overreact as pilots, its in our blood. We get paid to make life altering decisions in sometimes only a few short seconds. Its natural for us to over react and even resort to calling names, when we all have the passion we ALL share for this great industry. We are lucky to be a part of this time in aviation...and in a few hundred years when they have it all figured out, they will look back on these discussions and hopefully they used it as a model for how to fix the problems, not compound them.

Thank you again for your reply, and ill look forward to more spirited debate in this thread and others. That said, I couldnt possibly write with your flow or eloquence, so I hope my words are at least something you will consider before you dismiss this college.

Sorry again for the personal BS.

Fly safe all.

[cncpc]

cncpc...

Thank you for your response. I conceed that I may have let emotion run my keyboard, and for that I also offer my apology. I believe we can have a discussion about things we disagree about, without having to resort to name calling. Thank you for offering your clarity.

Back to the thread...

I think it is important to point out that I have no vested (or otherwise) interest in this college. Infact, it has just been since the life of this thread that I have restarted any communication with them, or renewed interest in the topic.

A few years ago, the idea was brought up. I initially was onboard but sadly, for me, things seemed to deteriorate between certain members of the (former) board and I no longer felt that anything positive could come from the constant bickering.

Now a new leader has emerged. He has taken alot of his personal time to try to address all our questions, and for that he deserves at least our respect? How can you equate his efforts to a (using your words) secretive society? The President of the board outted himself...knowing full well he would be attacked for taking this position. He is answering all our questions and asking for our input. How is that a secretive society?

Perhaps you are as anti-union as I am. I dont believe in them, nor do I condone their existance. They were formed with good intentions, but became just a haven for the lazy and uninclined. I see this college as more of an association (TomM pls correct me if im wrong here) who`s main function would be a mentoring role. Do doctors not seek immediate entrance to their college upon grad? Why should we be any different? Hell even social workers have their own association. I believe this industry is long overdue for a college. One that belonging to would mean something. That is the only agenda I have is to see a college in place that would provide some much needed oversight of our industry, as well as mentoring inexperienced pilots as they make their way. I only wish we had that to turn to when we graduated. We just fire off 40 resumes and do road trips in hopes that we will get a job on the dock or ramp. A college would help alleviate some of the problems at very least.

I see this group of individuals as people who are volunteering their time in an effort to better our industry. I dont understand why we cant at least try to rally around this idea? They are not seeking to become just another layer of bureacracy (sp?), but rather a voice in the industry that is currently void and empty. They are not using any smoke and mirror tactics and they are answering our questions. Isnt that at least worth asking some more questions before you unilaterally shut down the idea?

You yourself said that there are likely 100 good 703 ops in Canada. I would tend to agree with you, but its the other 100 or so you would be worried about? I agree! Why again would we not want a recognized body such as a college, that we could turn to when TCA is ignoring us? For the record though, that is why I was personally offended when you stated the "Major part of 703" was dysfunctional...inferring that "most or all were in this category". I did not purposely mistate what you said, nor did I ignore it. I simply let emotion take over and at that point, a loss of common sense tends to take over as well. I just wanted to be clear that its not even the "majority" of 703 ops that are "bad". Id say to be honest its about 65/35 to the good.

Listen, I am not suggesting that piss tests by the college are an ideal way for them to go. Im not even suggesting that im fully onside with the idea yet...as my reservations from the previous group leaves me wondering if this could truly ever work. With the new leadership and transparency of this group, I do believe we should all at least give them our attention and see if we can debate and discuss our disagreements and perhaps even find a compromise or two. I dont like absolute(ism) on any level, and it seems that some of the people on your side of this issue are absolutely against the idea of a college. I would ask you to please explain to us why you are unwilling to even hear them out? They are asking for ALL our input, as transparent as it comes...and yet your side of this debate absolutely no way no how. Even Doc who is someone I hold in very high regard in real life, is too absolute about his position on this issue. My only hope is we can begin a dialogue with open minds... LISTEN to what TomM and his board have to say and than make a decision based on all the facts. We tend to overreact as pilots, its in our blood. We get paid to make life altering decisions in sometimes only a few short seconds. Its natural for us to over react and even resort to calling names, when we all have the passion we ALL share for this great industry. We are lucky to be a part of this time in aviation...and in a few hundred years when they have it all figured out, they will look back on these discussions and hopefully they used it as a model for how to fix the problems, not compound them.

Thank you again for your reply, and ill look forward to more spirited debate in this thread and others. That said, I couldnt possibly write with your flow or eloquence, so I hope my words are at least something you will consider before you dismiss this college.

Sorry again for the personal BS.

Fly safe all.

Our better angels are coming to the fore after a night's sleep.

I was going to make a long post about why I'm against urine testing, but because it doesn't seem to be on the agenda, I will stay my hand, or fingers. I will say that I am involved in the shaping of pilot careers and where I work we do have a policy that says your career with us could come to an end if you have marijuana use as part of your lifestyle. We point out first of all that it certainly could affect your performance as a pilot if you were high at the controls. That, to me, would be unthinkable. It could affect performance if the use was so frequent that the fog never completely went away, even though the effect was technically gone. In a practical sense, it could affect an airline career if one were arrested for pot as it would preclude flights to the US. It is an unwise thing, firstly because it may be an unsafe thing. We do not do urine tests. We are in a small community and its pretty obvious when someone is gowed up, and word gets around very quickly. We will not have our pilots associated with drug use, but we don't have a zero tolerance policy. We have a statement on going in, if there is an issue we have a discussion, and if that doesn't work, we have a parting.

We're not interested in anyone's urine. I find that a unacceptable intrusion by the state into the personal autonomy of individuals, and I find it even equally unacceptable when done by private companies, although I'm not that against one as a condition of hire or after an incident.

[Doc]

Gawd, I hate it when everybody "quotes' the last guy's comments.
Perhaps the "college" will put an end to such tom foolery?

[cncpc]

Gawd, I hate it when everybody "quotes' the last guy's comments.
Perhaps the "college" will put an end to such tom foolery?

Or keeping her phone number to yourself.

[Beefitarian]

I have to quote the guy I'm responding to or else Cat thinks I'm attacking him and/or eleven other people think I'm talking to them.
Unless I actually ask Cat a question then quite often he ignores me.

[cncpc]

I have to quote the guy I'm responding to or else Cat thinks I'm attacking him and/or eleven other people think I'm talking to them.
Unless I actually ask Cat a question then quite often he ignores me.

It is possible to cut most of the quotes and leave only the nut of what you are commenting on.

Not saying anybody's a nut, now.

[Localizer]

I find it strange how drugs and alcohol have become a hot topic of concern? I'm in favour of on the job impairment prevention, but not in favour of dissecting peoples personal lives. Call me crazy, but I assume we all go to work "fit for duty".

Mandatory employee drug testing is illegal in Canada because it discriminates against drug-dependent candidates under human-rights laws because addiction is defined as a disability.

Drug and alcohol testing is a human-rights can of worms that most agencies, corporations, and associations won't touch.

I'd rather hear more information regarding the CPPC then the conspiracy theories.

[Beefitarian]

It is possible to cut most of the quote?

I think so.

[contrite]

Sorry Doc, but the quotes tell what the problem is:

That is the only agenda I have is to see a college in place that would provide some much needed oversight of our industry….

...not even the "majority" of 703 ops that are "bad". I’d say to be honest its about 65/35 to the good.

Who decides whether an operation or pilot falls on one side or another of the good/bad divide? Based on what? And having decided that, what exactly is meant by “oversight”? Is it worth wrecking the good 65 for the sake of the 35? What about when the split is 80/20, or 90/10?

I like my job, I am paid well, and the company is fair. I will not apologize for this, but I do recognize that this has come about largely through luck and circumstance, and I claim no special qualities or abilities to control events or any divine entitlement to my good fortune. It is regrettable that not everyone feels as I do, so I respect another’s efforts to bring such circumstances about in their own careers. But to do so is it really necessary, or correct, to impose the wishes of one group in the industry on another without the consent of those that do not wish to participate? Particularly when that righteous group has no clear idea about what they want to impose? Indiscriminate gunfire without a target is just as likely to hit the good guys as the bad.

We are over-supplied in this country with well-intentioned meddlers who feel they have licence to impose their ideals and standards into the perfectly good lives of others to overcome some perceived short-coming in their own, or to impose a set of ideals that not everyone shares. Please, let us not do this to ourselves in aviation; we will come to regret it.

[Prairie Chicken]

Gawd, I hate it when everybody "quotes' the last guy's comments.

X 2

And fly, thank you for that. You saved me a bunch of typing as I was thinking the same things! Tom & company are trying to make things better. They're not being secretive. They're still open to suggestions and modifications of their ideals. They invite input & participation. They may or may not succeed, but lets not have the forum start a rumor about how evil they are & then propogate that rumor which was never attributed to the College in the first place.

We don't have enough info yet to determine if this endeavour will succeed or not but we have a contact so we may participate; and I hope to hear more about the group as they progress.

Tom, please post a web site as soon as you have one up & running.

This thread is on, what, sixth page? I'm impressed. Despite some sidetracks, I think people are certainly interested.

[Doc]

We are over-supplied in this country with well-intentioned meddlers who feel they have licence to impose their ideals and standards into the perfectly good lives of others to overcome some perceived short-coming in their own, or to impose a set of ideals that not everyone shares. Please, let us not do this to ourselves in aviation; we will come to regret it.

Okay, sometimes the quotes do work....so I quoted just a wee bit here...

This is exactly how I feel about the entire "college" idea. My fear is their desire to "fix" even what isn't broke, just to run the entire thing "their" way.

[Doc]

What we need is to know what the "college"'s agenda really is. Bring out the "COLLEGE MANIFESTO"!! List your goals. Your aims. What you intend to DO. What you do NOT intend to do. I could contact the "college" directly, but then I would know what's up. I'm ONE pilot. You want backing from the majority, then you must spill your intentions to that majority. Informing one pilot at a time is absolutely useless. As a group, Canadian pilots have NO idea that you even exist, let alone the why's and wherefores.
So far, you would have a really hard time faulting folks for being negative.
Topics so far.
No intention of attempting to improve working conditions. Excuse....that's a Union function.
No intention of attempting to improve on the low wages of pilots starting out. Excuse......that's a Union function.
No intention of ridding us of bonds and money up front for jobs. Excuse.....that's a Union function.
Random Drug and/or Alcohol testing. Okay, so that's just a rumour.
Education requirements........Okay, I've heard this somewhere (therefore, I'm sure others have as well)......You just have NO right to do this!
Intention of offering "better qualified" pilots as a result of being "college" members? Sure. This needs some explanation? Again a rumour, but modelled after Contrail.
No support for new pilots....see above.
In summary, everything that is WRONG with aviation in this country(as far as I'm concerned at least) is on the "IGNORE" list as far as the "college" is concerned.

You want support? What exactly ARE your plans?

[flyinthebug]

My fear is their desire to "fix" even what isn't broke, just to run the entire thing "their" way.

Doc, that is part of the misunderstanding about this idea. It wouldnt be the voices of a few for all, it would be a voice for ALL members (maybe for the few). Not a dictatorship, a democracy.

Hows that for the use of the quote feature

[Doc]

My fear is their desire to "fix" even what isn't broke, just to run the entire thing "their" way.

Doc, that is part of the misunderstanding about this idea. It wouldnt be the voices of a few for all, it would be a voice for ALL members (maybe for the few). Not a dictatorship, a democracy.

Hows that for the use of the quote feature

You may well be correct. So let them share their plans.
Cheers mate. Eat the Wind!