Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Mig29]

Squid,

No I block on average 80hrs and still get 14-16 days off. You wanna prop up Encore Cpt pay to 80hrs? No problem, but it still makes a grand total of $65,280! When will you guys stop defending this pathetically, ridiculous wage and just look at the facts that we are our own worst enemies??

Regards,

[AOW]

I would consider Porter's salary as industry standard. 80% of that as promised would've be $62400 (CA) and $34,400 (FO).

58K is diplorable, its B1900 wages, who cares if the company is stable and makes tons of money. When you can't make ends meet whats the point, try living in Calgary or Toronto on $58K. With 20 working days you won't have much room for overtime. Stop drinking the kool-aid call it as is.

In order to match those 80% of Porter numbers, you would need to fly 75-76 hours per month, which doesn't seem too unlikely. Flying 83-84 hours per month, then you're up to 1000 per year, so that works out to $68k and $38k.

If you are working 20 days per month, what are the chances of only blocking 70 hours? I am not a huge fan of these numbers, and I am going to seriously rethink my plan of trying to get on with encore, but I don't think that anybody is going to be both working 20 days and blocking 70 hours, at the same time.

I make a whole lot more than this flying a king air... makes moving on seem less and less attractive!

[yyz monkey]

Oh, and it just blows my mind that people are actually defending this. Give yourself a shake. Walmart shelf stackers make more than that.

First year ramp leads make more.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Avcanada should ban corporate shills.Zzzzzzzz... same old line.

Oh, and it just blows my mind that people are actually defending this. Give yourself a shake. Walmart shelf stackers make more than that.

Proving once again, if further proof were needed, just why pilots generally make shitty businessmen. It's not a matter of corporate shilling. It's not a matter of evil CEOs. It's not about any of the other bogeymen you guys like to throw out. It's Economics Frikken 101. If you don't feel like packing up your families and moving to Calgary for the wages on offer, then don't. Either there will be enough other guys who will, in which case the offered compensation was by definition acceptable, or there won't, in which case Encore will be forced to bump up its offer. But don't sit there moaning about the "degradation of the profession" and the "race to the bottom" and cursing guys who accept what you claim you won't. It's not personal, it's business.

[7thirtyseven]

As was the case with WJ in 1995-1996, those that understand what Encore is all about, and have the vision and entrepreneurial blood in them will "get it". Like all the naysayers and poo poo'ers of WJ in 1996, they'll be a slew of "holier than thou" cats who will never be interested in a venture where part of the fun is taking the risk and reaping the rewards.

This paragraph is where your arguement looses all credibility. Comparing Encore and westjet is like comparing my kid selling lemonade with Coca Cola. Thinking entrepenurial "your words" is not even part of the Encore equation. I dont see options on the table, I dont even see 20% ESP. Encore is asking potential employees to take all the risk with non of the reward. An "entrepenurial" pilot would stay far far away.

When some one can bring home as much at a no skill job with out the downsides, and non of the risk why would they even bother?

What you are over all objecting to is the value others place on their skill and careers, while of course this is subjective it is nevertheless a more acurate assesment than false claims for both early Westjet pilots (ie the were working and "risking to become millionaires) and Encores potential for any given individual.

[Handski]

I'm your average Porter pilot. I'm at the top of the bottom third of my position's seniority list (sorry about the complicated wording - try to follow me).

With an average amount of OT, working mostly layovers, I will take home $20k more than my pay scale says I should be making this year.

Furthermore, my January 2013 block allots me 18 days off, and 72hrs credit.

And up until I read this thread, I honestly thought I was riding the bottoms of the industry. Thanks, kool-aid drinkers, for putting things into perspective for me.

[Flying Nutcracker]

So this went from a million questions to "dp",who is pretty quiet these days, to no questions at all...

It's a pretty easy decision... You don't HAVE to take this job. The offer is for YOU to accept or pass. If you feel the conditions offered are not what you expect, well... Don't take the job.

And that's the only way you can send a message. Bitching about something on this forum alone doesn't do anything to change management's mind. Not getting qualified people will!

[Mig29]

Flying Nutcracker & YYZSaabGuy + 1

Handski, thanks for your input. Definitively puts things into perspective. Hopefully to more to those that intend to apply then anyone else.

[Legacy]

Avcanada should ban corporate shills.Zzzzzzzz... same old line.

It's not personal, it's business.

Worst statement ever. When someone de-values the job that took me 20 years to get the experience I have and the pride that I take to my job with me then it is definitely personal. If every pilot took pride in their profession we will start seeing changes in this industry. It's personally insulting thinking that someone will do my job for half the wage. ABSOLUTELY. I offer my employer a lot more than just pilot skills.I take pride in that

[tiguan]

Heck if "pilots" are willing to fly navajos for free, $32K to fly a Q400 seems like a pretty big bonus.

[pilotidentity]

Yes Management has set the wage and has said you have to work 20 days to earn that low wage and there is nothing you can do about it.

I'm just thinking about myself and fellow pilots when I say I hope this plan of their's backfires on them. Sure they will fill the seats but lets hope the Quality Pilots that value themselves find better places to work and don't apply.

My pay and benifits are based on what other pilots make in Canada and this is really lowering the bar. To those of you who are trying to sugar coat this I don't think that is possible. It sucks for us all. Way to go Westjet!

[DaveP]

Hi Flying,
I retired.

Long time reader - first time poster!

All the best in 2013.

So this went from a million questions to "dp",who is pretty quiet these days, to no questions at all...

It's a pretty easy decision... You don't HAVE to take this job. The offer is for YOU to accept or pass. If you feel the conditions offered are not what you expect, well... Don't take the job.

And that's the only way you can send a message. Bitching about something on this forum alone doesn't do anything to change management's mind. Not getting qualified people will!

[whoresfly]

From what I understand they have people lining up for these jobs. The reality is that compared to most non pilot jobs out in the real world it's still a pretty good deal.

If you talk to the average Joe on the jack hammer out in the real world $65000 a year for 80hr a month of pretty easy non labour intensive work would be a dream come true.

[RVR6000]

Just take a look at the regionals in the States, thats where were heading. It is sicking that pilots are actually defending this, this profession will only go downhill in this country with this type of attitude.

About Porter's comments on block hours, they garantee monthly minimums. At a minimum you're making 76K a year, you're working 16-17 days a month. I don't work at Porter or plan to join Encore however this effects us all in this industry.

ITS LOWERING THE BAR

[Flying Nutcracker]

Hi Flying,
I retired.

Long time reader - first time poster!

All the best in 2013.

So this went from a million questions to "dp",who is pretty quiet these days, to no questions at all...

It's a pretty easy decision... You don't HAVE to take this job. The offer is for YOU to accept or pass. If you feel the conditions offered are not what you expect, well... Don't take the job.

And that's the only way you can send a message. Bitching about something on this forum alone doesn't do anything to change management's mind. Not getting qualified people will!

Happy New Year, Dave!

BTW... I knew about the retirement!

[Cat Driver]

From what I understand they have people lining up for these jobs. The reality is that compared to most non pilot jobs out in the real world it's still a pretty good deal.

If you talk to the average Joe on the jack hammer out in the real world $65000 a year for 80hr a month of pretty easy non labour intensive work would be a dream come true.

Is it possible some pilots have been overpaid up until now?

[Bede]

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=86088

I rest my case. If you don't like the job, don't apply.

Cat,
Are you trying to start a poop storm? We already have people complaining about having a job requiring minimal education where, by the time you're 30, you can be in the top 25% of income earners in this country. There are few other jobs that compensate as well as this industry.

[whoresfly]

From what I understand they have people lining up for these jobs. The reality is that compared to most non pilot jobs out in the real world it's still a pretty good deal.

If you talk to the average Joe on the jack hammer out in the real world $65000 a year for 80hr a month of pretty easy non labour intensive work would be a dream come true.

Is it possible some pilots have been overpaid up until now?

Ah the evil free market. Its amazing what will happen when you don't have union extortion tactics.

At the end of the day you will adapt to the lower pay and enjoy what the WJ owners hope to be a financially viable and secure company.

There will also be some hope to transfer to a more sophisticated aircraft after you have gained more experience as long as you behave and tow the line.

I have heard that by far the more pressing issue will be finding experienced Q400 AME's. I am told that they are far and few between. Much more time and training will be required to get present AME's up to speed if none can be found but then again I'm sure the free market without union interference will figure it out.

[jjj]

Most of the people around this forum are likely candidates for the second round of expansion at Encore and not the first bunch who will essentially all be Captains because of the quick upgrade.

Those hired as FOs for longer terms will have to slug it out for a bit longer at $38 bucks an hour. They will need an ATPL and a good head on their shoulders essentially - WS will take care of the rest. I would guess that we will hire a bunch of sharp pilots around the 2000 hour mark (just a guess). The question is then - what is a 2000 hour pilot worth in a country where the supply is high and the bar is so low at the charter outfits etc?

If this doesn't fit your idea of acceptable then have fun in your current job or even better for some - go work at Jazz for another 4 bucks an hour. That way you apparently won't be a whore even though 5 years down the road the guys who went to encore will be making more than you. Something to think about when that first upgrade is still several years away and when that happens you get a nice blend of weekends and reserve. Or you can be all you can be at Porter and I hope it all doesn't implode on you after you buy your first house and knock up the old lady.

I'm not saying this is right and I'm not saying that WS can't do better. Whatever the reasons - it is what it is. Aviation in Canada is full of lousy deals. For some who are knee deep in mortgages and children, this may not be the parachute you were hoping it to be. If you're young and single then Encore will be great. Remember we will still be hiring off the street directly to mainline.

I wish it was better and I also wish I there was a place like Encore when I had 2000 hours. I remember a lot of my friends who went to Canadian Regional in the late 90s and didn't even get paid until training was complete.

When I think about those days and what is offered today at Encore and so many other places - it makes me want to call you all bunch of crying babies.

Toughen up and succeed in time or keep on bitching and accomplish nothing. Whatever you do, it's your choice, and remember - Encore doesn't owe you a thing.

It's not fair - it's life.


JJJ

[AutoPilot Off]

Please tell me for the love of god that the pilots wont be grooming all these Q400s ontop of such a piss poor salary.

[flyer 1492]

They will be expected to groom,cater,refuel the aircraft...and stilll not complain about the working conditions. Otherwise say goodbye to the 737's.

[AOW]

Everybody stop fussing about these pay rates!

We all know that once the pilot shortage comes, market forces will bring salaries up to acceptable levels!

[Flying Nutcracker]

Please tell me for the love of god that the pilots wont be grooming all these Q400s ontop of such a piss poor salary.

You are saying grooming is beneath you? I groomed, cleaned, fuelled, checked in pax, loaded bags and did the safety demo in addition to my flying duties for LESS than this. Now i just fly and grrrrrroom. But I still take pride in what I do. It's culture! I may not like it at times, but I don't complain about it! I only complain about the mess that some passengers leave behind...

So if the pilots don't do it... Only 2 F/a's will be doing it. Is that fair?

[flyer 1492]

I'm not saying that it is beneath me. When I have completed my duties on the flight deck and have time, I will help the F/A's with grooming the cabin. Someone just asked a question and I replied, don't get your knickers in a knot.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Not you! Autopilot