Canada Jetlines

[Big Pistons Forever]

Does management have skin in the game? Theres no way to know how much management has financially invested into this venture, but they are investing thier hard work and time, so yes I'd say they have skin in the game.

Raising capital is the easy part, finding talent to invest in is the hard part!

Actually no, money is the sincerest form of flattery. Funding the idea is where the poseurs and dreamers are separated from the the movers and shakers. I will take this idea seriously when they can show everybody the money.....

[Old fella]

Without looking any CARs up, just going from memory, you need an AOC to sell seats under your own name and to get an AOC you need an airplane, training, CP, ops manager, SMS, SOPs, COM, etc......
Now if they want to partner with Canjet and maybe change the name to Canada Jetlines, that's legal, I believe.
Been removed form management positions for quite a while now so I could be wrong about all the above.

Seems like a 'shell'company set up for some reason that certainly escapes me with my limited knowledge. I mean if you want to organize an airline like this proposal and suggest a start-up this summer, wouldn't there be some infrastructure set up by now that is visible and on paper.

like much of the commentary on this subject - shall believe when I see it and in the interim, don't hold your breath.

[boeingboy]

Does management have skin in the game? There's no way to know how much management has financially invested into this venture, but they are investing their hard work and time, so yes I'd say they have skin in the game.

Actually - it's easy to find out. Disclosure must be made when filing for an IPO.

"According to the amended prospectus filed by Inovent and Jetlines in December, Jetlines had $572,250 in assets and $262,926 in liabilities as of Sept. 30."


Yes - It's easy to get capital, but hard to find someone who can see past the stars in their eyes. Usually the people with the capital to fund something like this will analyze everything pretty close and one thing they want to see is a sizeable amount of capital raised within. Then they wont even look at you unless you've funded it and advanced to the point where you have your AOC. That means manuals, contracts, approvals, etc....Then they'll talk to you.

The web site shows an impressive list of company principals

Yea - but none with any real experience in what they need to do. I still laugh to think that one of them was an investor in Oasis - and still thinks this is a good idea!!?? That's probably why they haven't raised much money - they don't want to give it up. A management group like that should easily be able to come up with 5 - 10 million by themselves.....and if they don't, one will be asking "why?"

At the end of the day - I like to see a bigger fish able to provide in this country, but these guys are never going to make it. There are way to many red flags and questionable things. Again - an ULC operation will never work in Canada.

[boeingboy]

Does this proposed company have any infrastructure yet(hangar, aircraft and associated maintenance setup

From what I've heard through the grapevine - they have a 3rd party AMO setup to do the work, but no maint program has been purchased from Boeing and the aircraft are still up in the air. An AOC is supposed to be issued in May or June.

[Batman]

The fundamental question for any investor is simply "what is this companies competitive advantage?". Lets see, flying the same aircraft type on less profitable routes? The only advantage this company will have is the shit wages it'll pay its employees, primarily the pilot group. I'm all for competition but this is just a bad idea for everyone.

[cdnpilot77]

Just because they haven't made their plans public to satisfy the forum members doesn't mean they don't have one, nor does it mean the doom and gloom everyone suggests, maybe they need to keep their cards close to their chest so they don't kill their competitive advantage.

Could it happen that it's a total s$&t show? Of course! Could it be the next WestJet? Of course! I guarantee corporate executives at Teal and Red are keeping an eye on it.

[sarg]

Obviously there isn't enough demand if none of the real airlines are flying it.

Chrysler/Dodge almost went bankrupt in the 80's before they brought out the Caravan. Clearly there was demand for mini vans before thier near bankruptcy, so why didn't they go through the trouble of market research, engineering and such when things were going well?

I guess my point is, established company's don't always fill market demand. Sometimes it takes a threat to the company before a fire gets lit!! Just because "real" airlines arn't flying the route, doesn't mean the route can't be flown successfully.

[/quote]

You make some valid points but lose credibility with the Sunwing to Hawaii comment.....

And I wouldn't compare NCA, Sunwest and Canadian North on the YEG-YMM route. To start, these carrier barely fly to YMM. The majority of the flying is north or south of YMM.[/quote]

WestJet has weekly seasonal service between YYJ-HNL. There's plenty of service between YQB and the west it just all routes though YYZ.

[True North]

Just because they haven't made their plans public to satisfy the forum members doesn't mean they don't have one, nor does it mean the doom and gloom everyone suggests, maybe they need to keep their cards close to their chest so they don't kill their competitive advantage.

Could it happen that it's a total s$&t show? Of course! Could it be the next WestJet? Of course! I guarantee corporate executives at Teal and Red are keeping an eye on it.

Haven't made their plans public? Keeping their cards close to their chest?? You been living in a cave? They've dribbled out pretty much every detail of their plan which changes on a monthly basis, including their proposed route network!!

Amateurs and clowns and I think the financial community has figured that out.

[Stoptheworld]

Does this proposed company have any infrastructure yet(hangar, aircraft and associated maintenance setup

From what I've heard through the grapevine - they have a 3rd party AMO setup to do the work, but no maint program has been purchased from Boeing and the aircraft are still up in the air. An AOC is supposed to be issued in May or June.

It was my understanding that Transport would not even look at a file until CTA issued a license. For the CTA to issue a license, the company must prove its financial fitness. With only about 500k in the bank, that don't cut it

[cdnpilot77]

Just because they haven't made their plans public to satisfy the forum members doesn't mean they don't have one, nor does it mean the doom and gloom everyone suggests, maybe they need to keep their cards close to their chest so they don't kill their competitive advantage.

Could it happen that it's a total s$&t show? Of course! Could it be the next WestJet? Of course! I guarantee corporate executives at Teal and Red are keeping an eye on it.

Haven't made their plans public? Keeping their cards close to their chest?? You been living in a cave? They've dribbled out pretty much every detail of their plan which changes on a monthly basis, including their proposed route network!!

Amateurs and clowns and I think the financial community has figured that out.

Who says that isn't intentionally misleading competitors to mask their real plan? Just sayin, it met not be nearly as cut and dry as some make it out to be.

[True North]

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. And they actually have $50m in the bank.

[cdnpilot77]

Have you seen their bank account?

[True North]

Keep dreaming.

Got a resume in there have you?

[Stoptheworld]

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. And they actually have $50m in the bank.

Okay, now I'm really confused! (Admittedly, not hard to do)

I thought the Prospectus of their reverse merger (not an IPO) showed them having about 500k in the bank with about 50% of that amount in liabilities. I think that a previous poster pulled that information out.

The reverse merger was pulled as, again my understanding, they could not raise the funds which was the aforementioned 50 Million

The CTA requires that, before an airline can sell tickets to the public, they must meet prescribed financial requirements. Once they meet that requirement, the CTA will issue a license and the company can proceed to Transport to meet their requirements for an AOC.

Things may have changed but that was the way it used to be.

[True North]

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. And they actually have $50m in the bank.

Okay, now I'm really confused! (Admittedly, not hard to do)

I thought the Prospectus of their reverse merger (not an IPO) showed them having about 500k in the bank with about 50% of that amount in liabilities. I think that a previous poster pulled that information out.

The reverse merger was pulled as, again my understanding, they could not raise the funds which was the aforementioned 50 Million

The CTA requires that, before an airline can sell tickets to the public, they must meet prescribed financial requirements. Once they meet that requirement, the CTA will issue a license and the company can proceed to Transport to meet their requirements for an AOC.

Things may have changed but that was the way it used to be.

Doesn't sound like you are confused to me, sounds like you have been paying attention.

[cdnpilot77]

Keep dreaming.

Got a resume in there have you?

Hahaha, just a friendly Devils advocate for those that feel they have everything figured out. I have a pretty great job flying a much smaller airplane which will likely pay more than a Jetlines captain, no need or desire to apply.

[FL7377]

Keep dreaming.

Got a resume in there have you?

Hahaha, just a friendly Devils advocate for those that feel they have everything figured out. I have a pretty great job flying a much smaller airplane which will likely pay more than a Jetlines captain, no need or desire to apply.

haha Well im sure this wasn't directed at me, but I'll tell you, I defiantly don't have everything figured out. However I decided to comment on this thread because this thread is a real downer on Jetlines, and theres no reason for it. This airline has vowed not to compete with AC/WJ, instead grow the market in areas that AC/WJ choose not to.

I think no one at AC/WJ (pilot, mechanic, bean counter and every one in between) should feel threatened by this company, sure it'll probably fail, but even if it doesn't, I think Jetlines will do good for the country. I wish them luck! Who's with me?

[True North]

haha Well im sure this wasn't directed at me, but I'll tell you, I defiantly don't have everything figured out. However I decided to comment on this thread because this thread is a real downer on Jetlines, and theres no reason for it. This airline has vowed not to compete with AC/WJ, instead grow the market in areas that AC/WJ choose not to.

I think no one at AC/WJ (pilot, mechanic, bean counter and every one in between) should feel threatened by this company, sure it'll probably fail, but even if it doesn't, I think Jetlines will do good for the country. I wish them luck! Who's with me?

Actually, there are lots of reasons to be down on Jetlines. I am curious how you see that this company would "do good for the country".

[Old fella]

Just because they haven't made their plans public to satisfy the forum members doesn't mean they don't have one, nor does it mean the doom and gloom everyone suggests, maybe they need to keep their cards close to their chest so they don't kill their competitive advantage.

Could it happen that it's a total s$&t show? Of course! Could it be the next WestJet? Of course! I guarantee corporate executives at Teal and Red are keeping an eye on it.

The Suits at Teal and Red keeping an eye on this, could be, probably from an amusement prospective would be a very good guess. Those same Suits are probably thinking thankfully such Directors are not with Teal and Red, coming up with this scheme. The new prospective company has stated it will not go against the other two big "colors" like JetsGo tried and failed so same "suits' are probably not wasting their company thought processes with this other than in the can taking a leak and idle chatter..............

[FL7377]

haha Well im sure this wasn't directed at me, but I'll tell you, I defiantly don't have everything figured out. However I decided to comment on this thread because this thread is a real downer on Jetlines, and theres no reason for it. This airline has vowed not to compete with AC/WJ, instead grow the market in areas that AC/WJ choose not to.

I think no one at AC/WJ (pilot, mechanic, bean counter and every one in between) should feel threatened by this company, sure it'll probably fail, but even if it doesn't, I think Jetlines will do good for the country. I wish them luck! Who's with me?

Actually, there are lots of reasons to be down on Jetlines. I am curious how you see that this company would "do good for the country".

Why do I think Jetlines will be good for the country? I believe they will make flying easier, cheaper, while growing the market and adding more aviation jobs. Some people have this view that the aviation market in Canada is finite, that theres only so many pieces of the aviation pie to go around, that any new comer will steal "aviation pie" away from thoes that came first. I believe that view is false.

I believe the Canadian aviation market is elastic, it can grow or contract as times change. How many people at AC lost thier jobs because of WJ? How many people at WJ/AC lost thier jobs because of Porter? Each new comer helps to expand the market by introducing more people to flying.

I live in Winnipeg, I'd like to visit Japan. A ticket to Japan is, say, $1,000 thats too expensive for me so I won't fly. If a new company starts up and offers a ticket to Japan for $100, well sh*t! I can afford that I'll go every weekend. Thoes that can pay $1,000 will likely continue to pay $1,000 because my $100 ticket comes with cattle-car like seating and a poke with a rusty stick.

My point is "no one currently employed in the Canadian Aviation sector need worry about Jetlines." Theres a really really good chance they will fail and leave an expanded passenger market for AC/WJ to scoop up. The negativity of this forum (and website in general) disturbed me so much I decided to start commenting! hahaha. Every one relax, things will be just fine!

[PROC_HDG]

Why do I think Jetlines will be good for the country? I believe they will make flying easier, cheaper, while growing the market and adding more aviation jobs.

I don't think you're going to find a lot of support for this view on a forum filled by career pilots. With the level of market saturation that already exists in this business and the level at which the existing carriers have fine tuned their cost structures and markets, a new airline trying to undercut that is going to do one thing and one thing only: Decrease the industry standard wage (for pilots in particular), only to go out of business a few year later having lowered the industry standard and put a bunch of pilots out of work. Please take a look at Jetsgo. Oh, and all the other different failed attempts at doing the same thing.

PROC_HDG

[FL7377]

Why do I think Jetlines will be good for the country? I believe they will make flying easier, cheaper, while growing the market and adding more aviation jobs.

I don't think you're going to find a lot of support for this view on a forum filled by career pilots. With the level of market saturation that already exists in this business and the level at which the existing carriers have fine tuned their cost structures and markets, a new airline trying to undercut that is going to do one thing and one thing only: Decrease the industry standard wage (for pilots in particular), only to go out of business a few year later having lowered the industry standard and put a bunch of pilots out of work. Please take a look at Jetsgo. Oh, and all the other different failed attempts at doing the same thing.

PROC_HDG

Well.... Yes, you are right sir.

However, "market saturation?" Both AC/WJ keep reporting load factors north of %80, and in 2014 several monthly load factor records were broken at both companies - that doesn't sound like a saturated market to me.

Maybe Jetlines will fail and leave behind a "lower bar" for pilot wages/conditions. Maybe, or maybe not. AC has spawned several companies (Sky Regional/Georgian's 705/Jazz Rouge) for the sole purpose of providing internal competition. Lets not forget avcanada's favourite "Encore". I think the bar is on its way down with or without Jetlines.

Yes I do remember Jetsgo and Canada 300 (vaguely) but jetlines is a different animal. Jetlines looks to be operating on the fringes of AC/WJ, and not a direct competitor.

[FL7377]

And yes sir, like you I am also a career pilot. Not a pilot that fly's into big airports in modern equipment, but one of thoes pilots that fly's into places like "Ft Mc-Nowhere" and "Most-people-cant-find-it-on-a-map- Lake".

[PROC_HDG]

Well.... Yes, you are right sir.

However, "market saturation?" Both AC/WJ keep reporting load factors north of %80, and in 2014 several monthly load factor records were broken at both companies - that doesn't sound like a saturated market to me.

Maybe Jetlines will fail and leave behind a "lower bar" for pilot wages/conditions. Maybe, or maybe not. AC has spawned several companies (Sky Regional/Georgian's 705/Jazz Rouge) for the sole purpose of providing internal competition. Lets not forget avcanada's favourite "Encore". I think the bar is on its way down with or without Jetlines.

Yes I do remember Jetsgo and Canada 300 (vaguely) but jetlines is a different animal. Jetlines looks to be operating on the fringes of AC/WJ, and not a direct competitor.

80% may represent some of the highest load factors we have seen since the economic collapse of 2008, but that's a long way from allowing room for another airline, particularly one with the proposed scope and ambition of Jetlines.

You are right that the bar continues to drop; Businesses are businesses and their managers would not be doing their job if they weren't continually trying to lower costs. That's why the last thing we as a professional group need is MORE competition.

The argument that jetlines will operate "on the fringes" of AC/WJs market is ridiculous. Their proposed network may operate from non-hub airports like Hamilton or Abbotsford, but that doesn't mean they aren't targeting AC/WJ passengers. Ryanair uses the same model - I wonder what British Airways, Iberia or Lufthansa would say if you asked them whether they consider Ryanair to be serious competition? People who were once AC passengers will happily drive the extra hour to Hamilton over YYZ if it means saving $100, just like people who were once Air France customers will happily take the 1.5 hour bus ride to Paris Bauvais over going to Charles de Gaulle to save 50 euros. This is the model Jetlines is going for and it doesn't benefit anybody working in the airline business (except the CEOs)

PROC_HDG

[True North]

Yes I do remember Jetsgo and Canada 300 (vaguely) but jetlines is a different animal. Jetlines looks to be operating on the fringes of AC/WJ, and not a direct competitor.

Have you done any research at all? Have a look at Jetlines route map. They won't be going head-to-head with AC or WJ to Flin Flon - that's gonna be a licence to print money with 737 - but everywhere else they are planning to go is already serviced by AC/Jazz or WJ/Encore.

History has clearly illustrated that the geography and population base of Canada can support a duopoly of scheduled national/international carriers. As PROC_HDG pointed out, all Jetlines will do is erode pay and working conditions in the industry. While they are still in business they will erode margins at the other carriers which will curtail growth and slow hiring. Then they will disappear putting employees back on the street.

Air Canada and WestJet are both strong, healthy companies right now. They are expanding and hiring. Better they should continue to do that and offer careers with excellent pay and working conditions for those who want to stay and work in Canada. Although I guess if all you are looking for is an endorsement so you can sell your services overseas, Jetlines could look like a good thing.

The fact that you think someone should fly you from Winnipeg to Japan for $100 shows you're part of the problem. For some reason, people think flying should be cheaper than taking the bus. In fact, the base airline fare often is lower than the bus fare but when all the government fees and taxes are added in it's not. If you want cheaper fares, petition your MLA and tell him to tell the government to stop treating the airline industry like a cash cow.

Canada Jetlines is a joke, a very bad joke for the Canadian Airline industry.