Agreement in Principle reached

[khedrei]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

[RockSalty]

Can anyone confirm this? IMG_2785.jpg

Until we get the actual contract language we don't know. These rumors are worth what you've paid for them... jack shit

[Greasy Greaser]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

Where are you getting that information???

First I heard of this, are you Bernie, Chris or Negots team?

edit: Also there is no first year captain pay at WestJet anymore so genuine question, do you work here or no?

[khedrei]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

Where are you getting that information???

First I heard of this, are you Bernie, Chris or Negots team?

edit: Also there is no first year captain pay at WestJet anymore so genuine question, do you work here or no?

I dont have any information. It was my opinion that the rumor picture of payscales showing 25% and 66% pay increases above was a joke.

I never claimed to work there. In fact I stated in another post that I dont when I commented about how bad this agreement looks.

Not sure what you are talking about though.

[MorePower!]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

[Chelsea Handler]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

I guess time will tell. If AC pilots get better than 100 percent less than American pilots, and a raise that only matches inflation, we will be kicking ourselves.

Maybe the union shouldn't have talked the talk about north American standard contract, when clearly this contract screams "I'm just a Canadian pilot". I hope to see AC pilots making 50 percent more than us flying the same planes, then we can look back at this oh so Canadian post you made.

[Ash Ketchum]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

[airway]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%

2023-05-21.png (95.98 KiB) Viewed 6192 times

[khedrei]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%




2023-05-21.png

I don't buy government inflation numbers.

I dont know about you guys, but food, rent, and other materials are up 30-50% just in the last 2 years where I live. 17% is bullshit.

[khedrei]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

We have to wait and see how the 15% is weighted, but if it has yr1 FO making anything less than 90k, it isn't enough. And I dont know why you would think it is.

[Goodman5]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.
[/quote

Hi Alexis!

[DanWEC]

I don't buy government inflation numbers.

I dont know about you guys, but food, rent, and other materials are up 30-50% just in the last 2 years where I live. 17% is bullshit.

The government of every country uses the most favourable possible metrics to determine inflation, as it devalues their currency and therefore credit, etc against other countries.

The big one for us that skews the numbers like mad is the Consumer Price Index. A 100" TV 10 years ago was 60k. Now it's 5k. This completely fucks the realistic COL numbers.

[lostaviator]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%




2023-05-21.png

2019 was actually the start of the last contract. Same BofC calculator has inflation at exactly 15% for that period.

[MorePower!]

Well then have fun jerking each other off into misery for the next 4 years. If the language is strong, this will get voted in. And you will remain miserable as always. Why not look on the bright side for a change?

I'm done stating my opinion here, because I'm realizing more and more the majority which come on here are just here to complain and be miserable with each other. Have fun. Good luck.

[a2btrail]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

You do realize the power of AC pilots is just saying NO out of their mouths right? and standing up for what they want.

No leverage needed when you're coming up the end of a contract. Leverage and change for better is not predicated on classes being filled at AC.

The outcome of one group does not mean the same for another.

[lostaviator]

Now that AC is under the ALPA banner it would be great to align our contract cycles in some way. With WJ potentially entering a 4 year CA and AC negotiating this summer, it will be another 3.5 years until WJ is able to see gains again based on what AC gets. Each carrier having their go at it every 2 years going forward would be quite beneficial as far as I can tell.

[Ash Ketchum]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

You do realize the power of AC pilots is just saying NO out of their mouths right? and standing up for what they want.

No leverage needed when you're coming up the end of a contract. Leverage and change for better is not predicated on classes being filled at AC.

The outcome of one group does not mean the same for another.

I agree that we can just say no, however it would definitely make it easier if other Canadian airlines had competitive contracts for AC to build on. Management has little incentive to offer massive pay increases to AC pilots if PIT courses are being filled and resignations are low.

[rudder]

I agree that we can just say no, however it would definitely make it easier if other Canadian airlines had competitive contracts for AC to build on. Management has little incentive to offer massive pay increases to AC pilots if PIT courses are being filled and resignations are low.

The principal incentive will be that if the AC MEC/ALPA sends the reopener by month’s end that all sections in the CBA are subject to normal course bargaining.

The AC pilots can set their own bargaining agenda and their own bargaining priorities.

[airway]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%




2023-05-21.png

2019 was actually the start of the last contract. Same BofC calculator has inflation at exactly 15% for that period.

Ok thanks for the correction. What was the date that the last contract started?

[co-joe]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

The worst part is that when the dust settles and WS pilots see what a weak contract this is, AC will continue to have zero trouble attracting WS pilots, and with no trouble filling groundschools, flay pay is here to stay. Plus there's nothing here for Encore, plus WG captains will all quit when they get downgraded as will lots of Swoopers, plus Sunwing FO's will go from 2 year upgrades to WS's 10+ year plan, the company still has the ability to weaponize jumpseat travel which hurts WS commuters....

[MAX8 Driver]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

The worst part is that when the dust settles and WS pilots see what a weak contract this is, AC will continue to have zero trouble attracting WS pilots, and with no trouble filling groundschools, flay pay is here to stay. Plus there's nothing here for Encore, plus WG captains will all quit when they get downgraded as will lots of Swoopers, plus Sunwing FO's will go from 2 year upgrades to WS's 10+ year plan, the company still has the ability to weaponize jumpseat travel which hurts WS commuters....

Co-Joe, you are a hypocrite beyond measure. Maybe just a troll. Pumping up Flair contract then cutting down WJ's?

What does Encore have to do with any of this? There will be no downgrades at SWG. Jump seat is the least of anyone's concern. Swoop downgrade but compensation remains the same? Ride that senior FO sched/skipper pay forever! How about you vote no to your own weak TA in the future vs down talk anyone else's agreements??

[lostaviator]

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%




2023-05-21.png

2019 was actually the start of the last contract. Same BofC calculator has inflation at exactly 15% for that period.

Ok thanks for the correction. What was the date that the last contract started?

Jan 1

Something we are all forgetting to consider in this "15% doesn't even cover inflation" discussion (when comparing from start of CA1 to now) is that we did receive annual increases of 2, 2, and 2.5. Yes that fell way short of inflation, but saying this 15% increase doesn't even cover inflation since the start of our contract is not entirely accurate. There is a little raise in there. Not defending anything. This did fall short of what I was expecting after all the hype. Just being fair. Still waiting to read the entire TA before making up my mind.

That and what does average 15% actually mean? There are going to be some very happy pilots who fall on the good side of that average and some cranky pilots who fall on the other side.

[JBI]

Further to lostaviator’s post, I did provide this comment on the Telegram chat that agrees completely with lostaviator and provides some further consideration.

Using the Bank of Canada calculator, inflation from the beginning of CA1 til now was 15%. BUT, CA1 had yearly cost of living increases of 2%, 2% and 2.5%, compounded. Meaning it accounted for 6.64% of the 15% inflation. The average 15.5% wage increase is higher than the remaining 8.36%, so it’s capturing inflation and giving us an additional (average) of 7.14% raise.

It’s also important to note that during this time period, inflation in the US was higher than in Canada. The US Dept of Labor’s inflation calculator pegs it at 18%. Which, coincidentally, is the EXACT amount of Delta’s initial wage increase in their contract.

If folks want to say that the initial 7% wage increase isn’t enough, fair enough. But the reality is, Delta’s 34% increase is over 4 years and is actually (just) 18% initially, which, with a higher inflation rate in the states, is very comparable to this AIP’s average initial wage increase.

[RiskyBalloon]

Further to lostaviator’s post, I did provide this comment on the Telegram chat that agrees completely with lostaviator and provides some further consideration.

Using the Bank of Canada calculator, inflation from the beginning of CA1 til now was 15%. BUT, CA1 had yearly cost of living increases of 2%, 2% and 2.5%, compounded. Meaning it accounted for 6.64% of the 15% inflation. The average 15.5% wage increase is higher than the remaining 8.36%, so it’s capturing inflation and giving us an additional (average) of 7.14% raise.

It’s also important to note that during this time period, inflation in the US was higher than in Canada. The US Dept of Labor’s inflation calculator pegs it at 18%. Which, coincidentally, is the EXACT amount of Delta’s initial wage increase in their contract.

If folks want to say that the initial 7% wage increase isn’t enough, fair enough. But the reality is, Delta’s 34% increase is over 4 years and is actually (just) 18% initially, which, with a higher inflation rate in the states, is very comparable to this AIP’s average initial wage increase.

This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....

[Anonymouse]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

The worst part is that when the dust settles and WS pilots see what a weak contract this is, AC will continue to have zero trouble attracting WS pilots, and with no trouble filling groundschools, flay pay is here to stay. Plus there's nothing here for Encore, plus WG captains will all quit when they get downgraded as will lots of Swoopers, plus Sunwing FO's will go from 2 year upgrades to WS's 10+ year plan, the company still has the ability to weaponize jumpseat travel which hurts WS commuters....

Co-Joe, you are a hypocrite beyond measure. Maybe just a troll. Pumping up Flair contract then cutting down WJ's?

What does Encore have to do with any of this? There will be no downgrades at SWG. Jump seat is the least of anyone's concern. Swoop downgrade but compensation remains the same? Ride that senior FO sched/skipper pay forever! How about you vote no to your own weak TA in the future vs down talk anyone else's agreements??

Co-joe's attitude is the issue with the majority of pilots in Canada honestly. Pilots from every other company were so quick to look down on flair for signing a crap deal, and now on to the next one. Pilots at AC and Flair are going to whine about Westjet voting yes on this one (because I'm sure they will vote yes), and then AC will negotiate a crap deal and everyone will say they're to blame for the shit Canadian wages, and then lynx will come up with a deal we'll all say is crap. And the cycle will keep continuing. It's always the other pilot group's fault.

It's hypocrisy at its finest. You gotta love these guys who will vote yes on their own measly gains and expect others to do the leg work and go on strike instead.

I'm sure co-joe and plenty of others would happily support picketing pilots at other companies while voting yes on their own lesser contract not even 6 months ago.

Only way we're getting any change is if every pilotnin canada starts working on their EB2, but who can afford that on these wages.