Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

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niss
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Post by niss »

No doubt that this particular school is doing a good thing. I was arguing against the hypothetical wage of $70/hr for an instructor, not with this particular school giving another $10 to its instructors.
So it's more fair to have an oldtimer who hasn't used an instructor in decades pay more money than for students who actually use the instructors to pay their wage?
Actually all the renter is doing is contributing to the markup used by the company to cover operating expenses, etc.

An instructors salary when doing ground prep, etc. is non revenue generating so the money as you pointed out has to come from somewhere. A small increese on the rental and the instructor fees spread out over how ever many rentals and training flights would allow for instructors to see more $ in their pocket.

That way the burdon is spread out over all the patrons of the FTU, and they dont loose any customers because they cant afford the training.

Add $20 - $30 per hr between the rental and the instruction and people can afford it. Double your instructor rate in one shot and people cant.

Atleast with the first one there are more students than less.
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Post by Cat Driver »

The answer is to get rid of the need for an FTU OC and all the B.S. that costs owners so much time and money.
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Post by happily.retired »

Hey Cat,

For those of us who don't know the actual numbers, how much time and money does it take to get and maintain FTU OC? What portions of operations are actually monitored?
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Post by Hedley »

Recent experience says that it takes SIX MONTHS to get a very
basic FTU OC - one aircraft. That includes an MCM but no AMO,
so the FTU is virtually guaranteed to lose money because you
must contract out your maintenance.

Any financially successful FTU will have it's own AMO and do it's own
maintenance, but to get even the simplest AMO (one aircraft type)
is likely going to take you another year.

Remember, NONE of this is required in the USA. The day you
do your initial flight instructor test, you can buy a buck fifty
and start instructing.

There has NEVER been any explanation from the regulator as
to why all this incredible, unnecessary paperwork burden exists.

And now in Ontario, the provincial government has now passed
a law requiring all FTU's to pay $10,000 per year to register as
a "career college".

One must wonder if there is in fact any adult supervision in our
national and provincial capitols. It's really hard to avoid concluding
that our government is completely out of touch with reality.
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Post by Cat Driver »

Hey Cat,

For those of us who don't know the actual numbers, how much time and money does it take to get and maintain FTU OC? What portions of operations are actually monitored?
Happily-retired that is a difficult question to answer because a lot depends on where you wish to set it up.

There is a very big difference between setting up in a small town in say Alberta with their low tax structure and the low cost of rental or ownership than compared to lets say Toronto Island.

But you have to put in place enough hardware to pass the initial inspection for the FTU and of course an airplane is a must.

It has been six years since my last application and I am not sure exactly what it cost me to get it to the point of passing the inspection. ( which I did by the way. ) I had a class one on the payroll for months during the process and he was paid a very good salary during the start up process and had the school opened he was to be paid $50.00 for every hour the airplane flew dual or solo.

The fees were $600.00 for the flight training inspection and $400.00 for the M&M inspection. ( It was M&M who was the problem in my application. )

Anyhow you must be perepared for months of waiting while the paper work is approved and all that costs money.

I also had a school from 1986 to 1991 with six singles , one twin and one R22 helicopter plus my own maintenance set up..you don't have to go back to school to figure out that cost a lot of money, the R22 on floats was $170,000 just on its own.

The bottom line is unless you have a fair amount of money you want to risk with the possibility of earning around 5% profit on it starting a school is very risky money wise.

Maybe I'm a bit off on the earning 5% bit but it is close.

On the other hand why can't a Canadian citizen with an instructors license just start up and run a school without all the B.S. you have to go through for the FTU OC dance with TC.

Is it because TC feels you instructors are untrustworthy and don't know what you are doing? If that is the case why did they give you the license in the first place.

It doesen't make sense to license someone and as part of the licenseing process comes understanding the rules...so why in fu.k can't you run a school if you are qualified without having to spend all that effort and time playing paper work games with TC?

By the way I have also owned two charter OC's which were a bit more profitable than the schools.
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Post by happily.retired »

Do you mean that a rookie instructor can start up on their own in the States? The equivalent of our class IVs? That's a bit scary, a class II or I sure but a class IV running the show :shock:
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Niss

Post by Taxi Driver »

NISS,

The school that I worked at required me to be at work much longer than full time hours, I think that you should look at it like a school paying instructors a salary.

Even if it's only $30,000 per year which I feel is fair for a job that you have to work more than 40 hours per week. The rate that you pay would have to go up.

You are paying your instructor like $25 per hour right?

Are you paying him for flight time or you fair enough to pay him for all the time that he spends with you waiting for you to get the plane ready and bullshitting ect?? I think that you probably don’t pay him for all the time that you use him for.

$140 per hour is really cheep for any airplane. How a school makes any money is beyond me. A 172 should be like $200 per hour. What does your plane cost you to fly per hour over the year?
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Expensive flight training

Post by HighBypass »

SayWhat wrote:It's interesting the confluence of events. First we have the Ontario Ministry of Colleges trying to eliminate commercial instruction in Ontario. Now we have TA and CFA increasing rates by another $10 to attract instructors. How long before the commercial licence become so expensive that we have FOs complaining that on their wages, they can’t pay off their $80,000 of loans to get as far as they did? I’m not saying any of this is bad, but very interesting.
If that is ever the case then the aviation industry in canada will be more like other industries, like being a doctor... where the education is so expensive that there are less doctors because of it, and as a result the graduates are more valued and becuase there will be less to choose from will be paid more as a result.

Its starting to get like this for Captains with lots of bush/specialty experience. Companies up north are having to pay more to keep guys around.

Roger Perdactor.
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niss
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Re: Niss

Post by niss »

Taxi Driver wrote: Are you paying him for flight time or you fair enough to pay him for all the time that he spends with you waiting for you to get the plane ready and bullshitting ect?? I think that you probably don’t pay him for all the time that you use him for.
If my instructor felt it was fair to charge me for the time that was spent on the ground waiting for me to preflight, etc. I would have no problem with it. I allready factor ground briefings into the hours to pay the instructor.

If I spend 1hr in the air and 15min on the ground with the instructor I pay 1.25hr.
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Post by N2 »

So now thtat is has been a week or so since the rate increase how has this affected bookings?
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Post by N2 »

Double post...
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Post by RVR6000 »

Did they find the instructors they were looking for.
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Re: Toronto Airways raises Instructor Rates to $70/hr :(

Post by Switchfoot »

wirez wrote:I got this lovely e-mail today from Toronto Airways.
We had to increase the instructor pay rate, in order to not only meet our customer’s needs, but also attract the best qualified instructors that we can. Our instructors can now look forward to making a decent living, and maybe enabling them to look at instructing as a career.
==============================

Any comments? At $70/hr, I think this will be the highest rate in Canada. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That's fantastic that they are paying instructors well! Especially experienced ones. More schools could do the same and people would consider instructing for a career! Good job!!


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Post by AV8R »

So did they end up getting all the instructors needed yet?
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Post by N2 »

Great to say you make x number of dollars per hour but if you only work 2 hours a week it's still the same old shit.
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Post by fixed pitch »

Instructors at TAL are not getting paid 70 an hr, it's 40$ and the school is taking the rest. Maybe those cheap aholes that own the place could've thought about what they were doing before they did. Students will head up the road to another school where things are a lot more manageable, money wise. Student intake may decrease and therefore the instructors will make the same as before as a result.
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niss
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Post by niss »

fixed pitch wrote:Instructors at TAL are not getting paid 70 an hr, it's 40$ and the school is taking the rest. Maybe those cheap aholes that own the place could've thought about what they were doing before they did. Students will head up the road to another school where things are a lot more manageable, money wise. Student intake may decrease and therefore the instructors will make the same as before as a result.
Fixed Pitch, nope your wrong...you couldn't possible be any more wrong. How do I know? I agree with you, and apparantly I am the bane of Aviation in Canada.
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Post by RVR6000 »

btw they are currently training 19 instructors. So there shortage will be short lived.
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Post by testpilot »

they turned my application down. or rather Mr. former cop said that they have all the experienced instructors they need for now and are only hiring "fresh and eager" class iv's.
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Post by RVR6000 »

Makes sense the class 4s will stay longer to built the hours.
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Post by happily.retired »

Niss you are the bane of everyone who's had the joy of hearing the crap that dribbles out of your slack jaw because you have absolutely no respect for anyone but precious Niss
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niss
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Post by niss »

Really? You feel that because you have had the pleaseure of dealing with me with out hearing my voice or seeing my face while you bash away at the keyboards only to have your 1s and 0s end up on my screen as words allows you to judge my character. That is pretty arrogant of you. Isn't the anonymity of the internet grand? I don't bother hiding because I feel I have nothing to hide from. My views and opinions are my own, and because I am aware I have no anonymity I have kept myself completely honest. Now because someone whom I dont know, and doesnt know me is sitting somewhere on earth at the other end of a computer (were talking about you by the way)doesnt like what I have to say (be it my opinion or my choice of 4 letter words) that doesnt give them the authority to judge my character. Just like I havent tried to judge yours. But you know what? I am willing to bet that if you are half as pretentious in real life as you are on this forum, you are one nasty *insert 4 letter word of your choice here*.

I have plenty of respect for plenty of members of this board your just pissy because you fall into the group of the people I have the least respect for.

BTW does your comment about me being slack jawed, and having to listen to my dribble extend to the people who share my opinion? If so thats not nice thing to say to even more people you dont know.
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Post by testpilot »

getting back on topic....Class 1 would get 42/hr, class 2 35/hr, class 4 maybe at 25/hr.
But if Dave don't like you your qualifications don't matter ....you're not getting in
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Post by Hedley »

It's too bad Transport makes getting the required FTU OC so incredibly difficult, expensive and time-consuming.

See, in a free market, if an instructor was getting shafted, he could go independent and offer his services directly to the student.

That's perfectly legal in the USA, but in Canada, it's very, very important to Transport that the instructors get shafted.
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Post by happily.retired »

Nope Niss. Just you.
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