Dronepiper wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:53 am
Can you please post a link to the article and quote the statement about Porter being unprofitable for its entire existence? I googled it, and I could not find any reference.
It is behind a paywall on the Toronto Globe and Mail online. If you subscribe, search “Nieuport” and you’ll find it. A huge document (but worth reading) it is within their statement of hardship.
Otherwise, I guess you’d have to look within any documents referring to the court case that is in the public domain.
The final ruling was that Porter owed Nieuport over $100M. I assume it will be appealed. If so, the documents will surface again.
cjp wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:52 pmPorter isn't infallible, but loads on my flights have been excellent - near full mist days - with a number of them at capacity. Lots of content people. Yes there are the odd cancelations due to staffing, but that is being addressed as quickly as our management team can put together legal solutions . Aircraft wise deliveries are near on schedule and working well with our expansion. We certainly want to hit our next set of expansion goals but Porter leadership will likely be more certain of their ability to staff these next sectors before commiting fins to those routes.
Is it perfect? Certainly not, but we have the right people and team bringing this together. Customers are wonderful and very understanding when a hiccup presents itself. Can't ask for much more than that.
Porter is an excellent airline. Both the E2 and the Q operations. I’ve always said that if an aviation enthusiast designed and built an airline, Porter would be the result. The employees are dedicated, very engaged, it’s like they understand this may be their only shot and every passenger is important. Also, internally, I note they are a very safe airline with a healthy safety culture.
I flew YYZ-YVR in Porter Reserve and it was a very pleasant flight.
But …. emotions aside, the numbers just aren’t there. The unit costs of the E2 are significantly higher than a 737 Max. The only way Porter is going to succeed is if they are able to achieve a higher yield. Currently, they are using price to attract passengers, so that’s not happening. Hopefully, that is a short term plan to attract passengers and get them “used to” a better on board experience.
Looking at North American passengers though, no airline has been able to achieve a higher yield with a better on board experience. None. And there have been some pretty capable contenders offering a superb product.
It doesn’t bode well that during the Nieuport court case, Porter revealed that in its 15 year history, they’ve never generated an operating profit. Surviving on investor capital and shrewd real estate deals.
Still. I think most here are rooting for Porter. It’s a cool airline, very different from the rest.
There seems to be some widespread misconceptions about the E195-E2 operating costs (either intentionally or from lack of facts). The E195-E2 the lowest seat cost against any narrowbody aircraft flown in Canada save and except for Max 8. But of course the Max 8 you have to fill 189 seats as compared to 132 on the E195-E2.
With a roughly 25 percent lower trip and only a 5 percent higher seat cost difference the E195 E2 will perform very well against the Max in a hyper competitive market place, especially when wanting to add higher daily frequencies or operating on mid size markets where 189 seats is too much.
The 737-800 and A220 300 both have higher seat costs and higher trip costs, and of course the 737-700 is a pig and has almost a 30 percent higher trip and seat cost than the E195-E2. WJ of course operates 40ish of these dogs.
The early misconceptions on this thread were all generated by E1 references which is a very very different aircraft than the E2.
In advance of the Porter neysayers disputing the fact that the E2 has compelling operating costs, for those that want operating cost facts, rather than hyperbole, read the following link.
Page 52 you can see the seat and trip cost differential of all aircraft on long stage lengths. Also, note that these were pre certification numbers and the final certification resulted in about 2 percent lower fuel burn than originally projecte by Embraer....so shift the numbers in your head.
Regardless, you will get the picture. Yes the E1 would not be a great competitor in the market but the E195-E2 will knock the socks off all narrowbodies in the market. Even the MAX 8.....I would take almost the same seat cost as the Max 8 with way lower trip cost any day of the week. Less seats allows higher yield, and additional frequencies than competitors, further strenghtening yield. FACTS.
cjp wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:52 pmPorter isn't infallible, but loads on my flights have been excellent - near full mist days - with a number of them at capacity. Lots of content people. Yes there are the odd cancelations due to staffing, but that is being addressed as quickly as our management team can put together legal solutions . Aircraft wise deliveries are near on schedule and working well with our expansion. We certainly want to hit our next set of expansion goals but Porter leadership will likely be more certain of their ability to staff these next sectors before commiting fins to those routes.
Is it perfect? Certainly not, but we have the right people and team bringing this together. Customers are wonderful and very understanding when a hiccup presents itself. Can't ask for much more than that.
Porter is an excellent airline. Both the E2 and the Q operations. I’ve always said that if an aviation enthusiast designed and built an airline, Porter would be the result. The employees are dedicated, very engaged, it’s like they understand this may be their only shot and every passenger is important. Also, internally, I note they are a very safe airline with a healthy safety culture.
I flew YYZ-YVR in Porter Reserve and it was a very pleasant flight.
But …. emotions aside, the numbers just aren’t there. The unit costs of the E2 are significantly higher than a 737 Max. The only way Porter is going to succeed is if they are able to achieve a higher yield. Currently, they are using price to attract passengers, so that’s not happening. Hopefully, that is a short term plan to attract passengers and get them “used to” a better on board experience.
Looking at North American passengers though, no airline has been able to achieve a higher yield with a better on board experience. None. And there have been some pretty capable contenders offering a superb product.
It doesn’t bode well that during the Nieuport court case, Porter revealed that in its 15 year history, they’ve never generated an operating profit. Surviving on investor capital and shrewd real estate deals.
Still. I think most here are rooting for Porter. It’s a cool airline, very different from the rest.
Unit cost of the e2 is higher?
E2-195 is listed as 72.8M. 737 max 8 at 121.6M
Also, porter got a hefty discount buying them during the pandemic and as a launch customer with a big order.
They also made a killing on the sale-leaseback of said airplanes. Their wallet is just fine.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:59 am
Unit cost of the e2 is higher?
E2-195 is listed as 72.8M. 737 max 8 at 121.6M
Also, porter got a hefty discount buying them during the pandemic and as a launch customer with a big order.
They also made a killing on the sale-leaseback of said airplanes. Their wallet is just fine.
“Unit cost” is operating cost per mile divided by the number of seats. Often referred to as “seat/mile” cost. Capital cost is not normally included in seat/mile cost as it is used as a metric of airline efficiency.
But, you are correct, it is included in the total cost and yes, from what I understand, Porter got a very good deal on the aircraft. A factor of buying them during the pandemic and being the only airline in North America to purchase them.
As I said above, Porter is flying on investor capital and shrewd real estate deals. While selling/releasing the terminal at YTZ and selling/releasing the E2s reeks of burning the furniture to heat the house, it can not be disputed they did generate a lot of capital for Porter. As you state, their cash on hand (wallet) is just fine.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:59 am
Unit cost of the e2 is higher?
E2-195 is listed as 72.8M. 737 max 8 at 121.6M
Also, porter got a hefty discount buying them during the pandemic and as a launch customer with a big order.
They also made a killing on the sale-leaseback of said airplanes. Their wallet is just fine.
“Unit cost” is operating cost per mile divided by the number of seats. Often referred to as “seat/mile” cost. Capital cost is not normally included in seat/mile cost as it is used as a metric of airline efficiency.
But, you are correct, it is included in the total cost and yes, from what I understand, Porter got a very good deal on the aircraft. A factor of buying them during the pandemic and being the only airline in North America to purchase them.
As I said above, Porter is flying on investor capital and shrewd real estate deals. While selling/releasing the terminal at YTZ and selling/releasing the E2s reeks of burning the furniture to heat the house, it can not be disputed they did generate a lot of capital for Porter. As you state, their cash on hand (wallet) is just fine.
My apologies. I thought you meant price per aircraft. And you are correct. Porter mainly finds money through real estate deals and sale-leasebacks.
Not sure how sustainable this method is, it has its risks. For sure. But I mean….they’ve been doing it since 2006. Can’t be that bad.
They are now trying the design planes that have no middle seat. Porter already has those with the E2, with a unit cost very close the the much larger Max 8. No new design required!
Aviationanalysis234 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:05 pm
They are now trying the design planes that have no middle seat. Porter already has those with the E2, with a unit cost very close the the much larger Max 8. No new design required!
Great article. No one likes middle seats unless you’re a family of three and pop the kid in the middle. But yea, the feedback I’ve been getting is that people enjoy the freedom of the aisle, with the view of the window.
cjp wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:52 pmPorter isn't infallible, but loads on my flights have been excellent - near full mist days - with a number of them at capacity. Lots of content people. Yes there are the odd cancelations due to staffing, but that is being addressed as quickly as our management team can put together legal solutions . Aircraft wise deliveries are near on schedule and working well with our expansion. We certainly want to hit our next set of expansion goals but Porter leadership will likely be more certain of their ability to staff these next sectors before commiting fins to those routes.
Is it perfect? Certainly not, but we have the right people and team bringing this together. Customers are wonderful and very understanding when a hiccup presents itself. Can't ask for much more than that.
Porter is an excellent airline. Both the E2 and the Q operations. I’ve always said that if an aviation enthusiast designed and built an airline, Porter would be the result. The employees are dedicated, very engaged, it’s like they understand this may be their only shot and every passenger is important. Also, internally, I note they are a very safe airline with a healthy safety culture.
I flew YYZ-YVR in Porter Reserve and it was a very pleasant flight.
But …. emotions aside, the numbers just aren’t there. The unit costs of the E2 are significantly higher than a 737 Max. The only way Porter is going to succeed is if they are able to achieve a higher yield. Currently, they are using price to attract passengers, so that’s not happening. Hopefully, that is a short term plan to attract passengers and get them “used to” a better on board experience.
Looking at North American passengers though, no airline has been able to achieve a higher yield with a better on board experience. None. And there have been some pretty capable contenders offering a superb product.
It doesn’t bode well that during the Nieuport court case, Porter revealed that in its 15 year history, they’ve never generated an operating profit. Surviving on investor capital and shrewd real estate deals.
Still. I think most here are rooting for Porter. It’s a cool airline, very different from the rest.
Unit cost of the e2 is higher?
E2-195 is listed as 72.8M. 737 max 8 at 121.6M
Also, porter got a hefty discount buying them during the pandemic and as a launch customer with a big order.
They also made a killing on the sale-leaseback of said airplanes. Their wallet is just fine.
Typical large volume purchase price from Boeing is 50% off list price. Many MAX’s were sold with even larger discounts after the fiasco.
AC purportedly got 65% off list price for the original c series order.
AC purportedly got 65% off list price for the original c series order.
[/quote]
…of course they did…all because Porter HAD a big order for the C’s contingent on the YTZ runway being extended and jet ban ended. Trudeau got elected, killed the extension and the hometown/located in companies from Quebec (both BBD and Pratt&Whitney, the engine maker) were losing a huge order..at a time they had not many orders at all. The big red Liberal machine helped the big red airline (by stopping Porter) and the big red province needed help so..presto chango..a big new order suddenly was announced.
Timetoflyagain wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:06 am
…of course they did…all because Porter HAD a big order for the C’s contingent on the YTZ runway being extended and jet ban ended. Trudeau got elected, killed the extension and the hometown/located in companies from Quebec (both BBD and Pratt&Whitney, the engine maker) were losing a huge order..at a time they had not many orders at all. The big red Liberal machine helped the big red airline (by stopping Porter) and the big red province needed help so..presto chango..a big new order suddenly was announced.
While it’s easy to think politics are involved, you only have to look back in time to see that Air Canada has a very long history of resisting governmental pressure and buying the right aircraft for the job. In fact the last aircraft Air Canada was forced to buy where better choices existed, was the Canadair DC-4M North Star. (They wanted DC-6s).
But, looking today, clearly the CSeries/A220 is the perfect aircraft for Air Canada. They can’t get enough, quick enough. Looking at Porter though, the E2 fits them better. Not only could they be delivered much quicker, at a better price, but the 2x2 cabin configuration fits with their “boutique” image of a better Economy experience.
For the record, I ferried two new E190s from Brasil to Montreal and got to watch the financial transaction. It’s inappropriate for me to say the purchase price, but it was less than the price of a Triple engine.
Timetoflyagain wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:06 am
…of course they did…all because Porter HAD a big order for the C’s contingent on the YTZ runway being extended and jet ban ended. Trudeau got elected, killed the extension and the hometown/located in companies from Quebec (both BBD and Pratt&Whitney, the engine maker) were losing a huge order..at a time they had not many orders at all. The big red Liberal machine helped the big red airline (by stopping Porter) and the big red province needed help so..presto chango..a big new order suddenly was announced.
While it’s easy to think politics are involved, you only have to look back in time to see that Air Canada has a very long history of resisting governmental pressure and buying the right aircraft for the job. In fact the last aircraft Air Canada was forced to buy where better choices existed, was the Canadair DC-4M North Star. (They wanted DC-6s).
But, looking today, clearly the CSeries/A220 is the perfect aircraft for Air Canada. They can’t get enough, quick enough. Looking at Porter though, the E2 fits them better. Not only could they be delivered much quicker, at a better price, but the 2x2 cabin configuration fits with their “boutique” image of a better Economy experience.
For the record, I ferried two new E190s from Brasil to Montreal and got to watch the financial transaction. It’s inappropriate for me to say the purchase price, but it was less than the price of a Triple engine.
Sale-lease back… Airline buys from manufacturer. Sells to leasing companies, banks etc then agrees to keep aircraft and pay monthly “lease” fee. Airline gets $ from sale of aircraft to finance expansion that new aircraft will bring. Works incredibly well if airline sells aircraft for more than they purchased them for..(buy low, sell high). Leasing company gets guaranteed customer so doesn’t have to buy aircraft on spec and hope someone wants them, give them away at fire sale prices or default to manufacturer. (See Flair threads for multiple examples of this). Airline gets in trouble if they don’t have enough revenue to pay lease fees. Some agreements may also have a buyout clause so airline can repurchase aircraft down the road. I believe Porter did this with many Q400’s.
Can you please post a link to the article and quote the statement about Porter being unprofitable for its entire existence? I googled it, and I could not find any reference.
I too have been unable to reference this exact quote. You can find the case on Canlii.org . I’ve gone through (searching for “profit” and variations of it) it and as far as I can see they never said this. They did claim that the old agreement that required them to pay terminal fees based on using 172 slots created an unprofitable environment. They were bound to this arrangement for 5 years beginning at the sale of the terminal. They worked on changing the agreement at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020 (If you were at Porter you may remember the email from MD and offers of LOAs for the winter season)
I’ve seen articles from 2012 and mentions of 2007 and 2019 being profitable as well.
In the end it’s a private company and there will be so many financial smoke and mirrors that it’ll be impossible to get a read on it’s true financial status.
Can you please post a link to the article and quote the statement about Porter being unprofitable for its entire existence? I googled it, and I could not find any reference.
I too have been unable to reference this exact quote. You can find the case on Canlii.org . I’ve gone through (searching for “profit” and variations of it) it and as far as I can see they never said this. They did claim that the old agreement that required them to pay terminal fees based on using 172 slots created an unprofitable environment. They were bound to this arrangement for 5 years beginning at the sale of the terminal. They worked on changing the agreement at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020 (If you were at Porter you may remember the email from MD and offers of LOAs for the winter season)
I’ve seen articles from 2012 and mentions of 2007 and 2019 being profitable as well.
In the end it’s a private company and there will be so many financial smoke and mirrors that it’ll be impossible to get a read on it’s true financial status.
Expect ONEX to do an IPO on Westjet soon after an agreement is reached with its pilots. I will consider buying shares but only for a period of time, not a long-term hold, any airline for that matter. Expect Porter to also do an IPO in the next couple years. Instead of buying shares though, I will short their stock. I have seen the Porter song sheet many times before with other airlines. Too many questions, too many areas of concern, the sale/leasebacks are just one red flag. The best advice for younger pilots is to pick an airline that has a high probability of being around in 30 years. Don't be distracted by the staring salaries, rapid progression, a 'great' culture, etc, etc. Focus on your AI, don't chase your performance instruments.
Can you please post a link to the article and quote the statement about Porter being unprofitable for its entire existence? I googled it, and I could not find any reference.
I too have been unable to reference this exact quote. You can find the case on Canlii.org . I’ve gone through (searching for “profit” and variations of it) it and as far as I can see they never said this. They did claim that the old agreement that required them to pay terminal fees based on using 172 slots created an unprofitable environment. They were bound to this arrangement for 5 years beginning at the sale of the terminal. They worked on changing the agreement at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020 (If you were at Porter you may remember the email from MD and offers of LOAs for the winter season)
I’ve seen articles from 2012 and mentions of 2007 and 2019 being profitable as well.
In the end it’s a private company and there will be so many financial smoke and mirrors that it’ll be impossible to get a read on it’s true financial status.
Expect ONEX to do an IPO on Westjet soon after an agreement is reached with its pilots. I will consider buying shares but only for a period of time, not a long-term hold, any airline for that matter. Expect Porter to also do an IPO in the next couple years. Instead of buying shares though, I will short their stock. I have seen the Porter song sheet many times before with other airlines. Too many questions, too many areas of concern, the sale/leasebacks are just one red flag. The best advice for younger pilots is to pick an airline that has a high probability of being around in 30 years. Don't be distracted by the staring salaries, rapid progression, a 'great' culture, etc, etc. Focus on your AI, don't chase your performance instruments.
. Aircraft wise deliveries are near on schedule and working well with our expansion. We certainly want to hit our next set of expansion goals but Porter leadership will likely be more certain of their ability to staff these next sectors before commiting fins to those routes.
