A decent Canadian Purchase! (CC-117)

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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

CYOX wrote: Your analysis on take-off distance is not as relevant as landing distance. The C-17 can take a full load into a 5,000 foot gravel runway, the IL76 requires 7,000 feet of pavement. This comes in handy when faced with Tactical missions as aircraft leave a the Theater of Operations relatively empty (get in, get out).

The IL76 is a good aircraft and I maintain that it is good for certain projects, the AN-124 is a great machine as well as it has great legs and can carry a great volume. Both of these aircraft are great commercial aircraft. Just as the BC-17X will never be a great commercial aircraft, it does not have the legs or the capacity to compete in a commercial market.
Yes, the C-17 can land on a 5000 foot gravel runway although most regular gravel runways in the world would be damaged by the landing of a fully loaded C-17 (at 200 tonnes landing weight). That is one of the reasons the planned commercial version was to have an added center main landing gear.

I am not certain what chartered IL-76 require as runway but like I wrote before, it is not fair to compare the civilian specs of a commercial IL-76 to the military specs of a military C-17. The civilians have more safety buffers built into the figures and miltary IL-76 go into shorter runways (as civilian C-17s would need longer one if there was such a thing) The Russians have landed a IL-76 on a 4200 foot runway.

The IL-76 does not need pavement. It was built to land on soft runways and does so. Its PCN is much lower than a C-17s and even the wheel pressure can be modified in flight to suit the runway. Unlike the C-17, an IL-76 can land on most gravel runways without causing damage.

The published IL-76 take-off distance is 2160 meters (about the same as a C-17 at its gross weight) and the landing distance is 1400 meters so roughly 7000 feet and 4500 feet. These may be the military specs, I do not know.
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CYOX
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Post by CYOX »

yultoto wrote:
CYOX wrote: Your analysis on take-off distance is not as relevant as landing distance. The C-17 can take a full load into a 5,000 foot gravel runway, the IL76 requires 7,000 feet of pavement. This comes in handy when faced with Tactical missions as aircraft leave a the Theater of Operations relatively empty (get in, get out).

The IL76 is a good aircraft and I maintain that it is good for certain projects, the AN-124 is a great machine as well as it has great legs and can carry a great volume. Both of these aircraft are great commercial aircraft. Just as the BC-17X will never be a great commercial aircraft, it does not have the legs or the capacity to compete in a commercial market.
Yes, the C-17 can land on a 5000 foot gravel runway although most regular gravel runways in the world would be damaged by the landing of a fully loaded C-17 (at 200 tonnes landing weight). That is one of the reasons the planned commercial version was to have an added center main landing gear.

I am not certain what chartered IL-76 require as runway but like I wrote before, it is not fair to compare the civilian specs of a commercial IL-76 to the military specs of a military C-17. The civilians have more safety buffers built into the figures and miltary IL-76 go into shorter runways (as civilian C-17s would need longer one if there was such a thing) The Russians have landed a IL-76 on a 4200 foot runway.

The IL-76 does not need pavement. It was built to land on soft runways and does so. Its PCN is much lower than a C-17s and even the wheel pressure can be modified in flight to suit the runway. Unlike the C-17, an IL-76 can land on most gravel runways without causing damage.

The published IL-76 take-off distance is 2160 meters (about the same as a C-17 at its gross weight) and the landing distance is 1400 meters so roughly 7000 feet and 4500 feet. These may be the military specs, I do not know.
The numbers I use is for the BC-17X which is the commercial version. Your argument all along is that the CF should use the commercial version of the IL76.

There is not one IL76 operator that will operate the aircraft into a gravel runway, no anti skid.
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

CYOX wrote:There is not one IL76 operator that will operate the aircraft into a gravel runway, no anti skid.
I am not contesting your C-17 figures, since you quote a length of 5000 feet, which is what I was claiming all along. I contest those who say the C-17 can go to 900 meter runways....
I must also stress that the C-17's PCN exeeds the capabilities of most gravel runways in the world.

You are probably correct about the IL-76, but I dont make things up when I state them. I normally repeat only what I can document.

A friend of mine who used to fly in the Arctic told me once he saw an IL-76 on the ground in Resolute Bay, Nunavut. Its a 6500 foot gravel runway. Although I have no reason to doubt his word, I just called the CARS in Resolute Bay a few minutes ago (tel 867 252 3840) who confirmed it to me. It was around 1999 he said but that regulations prevent him from disclosing the aircraft registration or Company name over the phone like that. He did say that the aircraft had to stay on the ground longer than planned, waiting for more favorable winds. That could have been related to his load or runway surface conditions (in case of a reject)
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CYOX
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Post by CYOX »

yultoto wrote:
CYOX wrote:There is not one IL76 operator that will operate the aircraft into a gravel runway, no anti skid.
I am not contesting your C-17 figures, since you quote a length of 5000 feet, which is what I was claiming all along. I contest those who say the C-17 can go to 900 meter runways....
I must also stress that the C-17's PCN exeeds the capabilities of most gravel runways in the world.

You are probably correct about the IL-76, but I dont make things up when I state them. I normally repeat only what I can document.

A friend of mine who used to fly in the Arctic told me once he saw an IL-76 on the ground in Resolute Bay, Nunavut. Its a 6500 foot gravel runway. Although I have no reason to doubt his word, I just called the CARS in Resolute Bay a few minutes ago (tel 867 252 3840) who confirmed it to me. It was around 1999 he said but that regulations prevent him from disclosing the aircraft registration or Company name over the phone like that. He did say that the aircraft had to stay on the ground longer than planned, waiting for more favorable winds. That could have been related to his load or runway surface conditions (in case of a reject)
Yes, I will give you that one as the Il was up there supporting cold weather testing for Porsche. Although YRB is not your typical gravel runway as it is probably better than most paved runways for 8 months out of the year as it freezes cock stiff, they scrape it down just about to gravel. It leaves a nice pebble surface, excellent braking, smooth and hard. No loose gravel to speak of, those are conditions you are not going to find in Afghanistan, iraq or Sudan or in most places on the planet. Also he had a nice light load on and he still had to wait for a favourable wind, those are things that you cannot do when you are placed in a tactical environment.
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red-neck
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Post by red-neck »

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/200 ... 11128n.htm

According to Boeing they did it in the under 500m Club, but I know that was when meter's were substantially longer.


Boeing C-17 Globemaster III Claims 13 World Records
LONG BEACH, Calif., Nov. 28, 2001 -- The Boeing-U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III set 13 world records during flight testing at Edwards Air Force Base Tuesday, including resetting two of the 22 world records that it claimed during initial flight testing in 1992-994.
The records set Tuesday will be forwarded to the National Aeronautic Association for certification. When the newest records are confirmed, the C-17 will have set 33 world records in various categories.
The C-17 used for the record flight, P-71, was the first C-17 with the extended range fuel containment system. Eleven of the records were for maximum altitude with various payloads as the C-17 carried payloads up to 40,000 kg (88,200 pounds) to an altitude in excess of 43,800 feet. The other records were for maximum altitude in horizontal flight without a payload, and greatest payload to a height of 2,000 meters.
The previous 22 world records included payload-to-altitude and time-to-climb in additional categories, as well as greatest payload to a height of 2,000 meters in the short-takeoff-and-landing (under 500 meters) category.
[/b]The new records were set with assistance from the U.S. Air Force C-17 System Program Office at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio; the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., and the 412th Test Wing there. The C-17 used for the record flight was already at Edwards for various other flight tests.
The U.S. Air Force has taken delivery of 77 C-17s of the 120 on order. The C-17 fleet has amassed more than 300,000 flight hours since first flight in 1991. The United Kingdom Royal Air Force also operates four C-17s.[/quote]
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lucky37
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Post by lucky37 »

Looking good in Yellowknife...

Image

Image
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MikePilot2002
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Post by MikePilot2002 »

This also goes for wepons....C7(M16), C9 (M4) etc. They dont call them by the american names because they have been modifed. They arent even produced by the same manufacterer.
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WJflyer
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Post by WJflyer »

MikePilot2002 wrote:This also goes for wepons....C7(M16), C9 (M4) etc. They dont call them by the american names because they have been modifed. They arent even produced by the same manufacterer.
Well, they are now. Diemaco (the makers of these weapons) was bought by Colt Defence, and it is now named Colt Canada.
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

lucky37 wrote:Looking good in Yellowknife...
Wow, Yellowknife! A 7,500 foot asphalt runway. They're really living on the edge!

Imagine if the CF had purchased a Twin Otter because of its great great STOL performance, mentionned that great STOL performance at every Press release during that whole acquisition process, especailly when dismissing the competition, and then once puchased, only used the Twin Otter on long asphalt runways instead of doing with it what Twin Otters like to do "becase it was too risky to do otherwise" except in war time. When are we going to see a dirty C-177? Either the aircraft can do it or it can't, or like my military brother-in-law used to say, either sh*t or get off the can.

View the real thing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8wmZ6hhpg8

Or here:

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid= ... 2603205349

The above video was not shot at an unpaved runway prepared by engineers but in a field!
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Last edited by yultoto on Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
monkeyspankmasterflex
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Post by monkeyspankmasterflex »

Let it go man...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caGIQVGWR8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfI4gSz4RJk

Wonder if ours will ever go into Alert.
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

monkeyspankmasterflex wrote: Wonder if ours will ever go into Alert.
Heres another at Bradshaw, in Australia :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN_TrAL5kwI

A specially "made-for-C-17" dirt runway. I guess Canada will soon have to make one here in Canada so CF crews can get a little dust on their aircraft.

The Bradshaw field seen in this video was officially constructed as an airfield construction excercise to demonstrate the capabilities of military engineering crews to hack out an airstrip of the brush in record time, which is what they did.

The reality was that no existing Australian unsurfaced runway could accomodate a C-17 and one had to be made so that the Australians could practice getting their new C-17s dirty.
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SAR_YQQ
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Post by SAR_YQQ »

yultoto wrote: A specially "made-for-C-17" dirt runway. I guess Canada will soon have to make one here in Canada so CF crews can get a little dust on their aircraft.
Are you sure we don't have one already? Maybe the CF has already established an austere airstrip somewhere and just forgot to INFO you on the memo.

On that note - how sure are you that our CC-177s haven't already gotten their tires dirty? Do you really think that all of our operations across the world are open for public scrutiny? The CF doesn't release press releases about every movement of its aircraft/naval vessels/equipment. Don't expect a flood of information to come down the line about every Globemaster deployment. We'll let you know if you need to know about it.
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red-neck
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Post by red-neck »

I'll let you do the math for when Canada completed it's first missions and the Auzzies, if your looking for results!

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/downloa ... /index.htm

11 September 2007
RAAF C-17 aircraft ready for operational tasks

Air Force’s giant Boeing C-17A is now ready to perform operational tasks for Australia.

The C-17 Globemaster has successfully completed eight months of intensive Introduction-into-Service activities, and has achieved Initial Operating Capability (IOC).

“Air Force has introduced this strategic asset safely, efficiently and in a relatively short period,” Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Geoff Shepherd said.
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red-neck
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Post by red-neck »

Twin Otter - 12 500 lbs
CC-177 - 585 000 lbs

hmm face it toto were not in Kansas anymore with these comparison's
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

SAR_YQQ wrote: Are you sure we don't have one already? Maybe the CF has already established an austere airstrip somewhere and just forgot to INFO you on the memo.
Well actually I sort of received the memo:

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/8wing/ ... 38&id=1142

No mention is made here of the C-17 but look at the date: May 25 2006. Just when the C-17 SOR was being written in haste to prepare the C-17 ACAN. We need a special airstrip in Trenton for CC-130s after having operated the type there for over 40 years without it. Coincidence? Only if Santa Claus really exists. I am certain that if I was to obtain the engineering requirements for that airstrip under an Access to Information request, "C-17" would be all over it. But I won't bother. I already know...
Of course, the CF could not at the time admit they were in fact building a C-17 "austere airstrip" when Gordon O'Connor was still telling everyone that no decision had been made about purchasing the C-17.

But you missed the whole point of my post. There are hundreds of austere runways in Canada. Hundreds.

If one has to build specially-made austere airstrips to accommodate the C-17, and these are the only un-surfaced airstrips that can accommodate that aircraft, can they still be considered austere? One of the first C-17 pilots to land at Bradshaw, Australia, claimed it was the best un-surfaced runway he had ever seen, and I believe him.

So if these "austere" airstrips are not really austere but just perfectly engineered airstrips disguised as such by having no asphalt and concrete on top, can this aircraft still be considered one that can land on "austere" airstrips since it never does and never will do? (unless of course a grader and steam-roller are standing by at the landing zone to fix the huge ruts it will create when it does, which they do in remote Afghanistan but not in remote Canada)

This being said, I'll let you guys enjoy this "technical marvel" in peace from now on. I know my ideas are not popular but a popularity contest was not my goal. It was to try to open a few eyes to what is really going on here.

I love aircraft more than a lot of people on this Forum. It started with military aircraft. When I was 12, could recognize most WW-II aircraft. I have collections of military aircraft books. I grew up reading Buck-Danny, a comic series Anglos have never hear of.

http://www.aeroplanete.net/mot.php3?id_mot=6

As a kid, I spent three years overseas living on a US Army base. At 11, I could by sound tell the difference between a Cobra Helicopter and a UH-1. At 10 I hounded my father to take me see "Tora Tora Tora" (1971). I was an Air traffic controller for a few years. I soloed at age 19, 27 years ago, and dedicated my life to flying and aviation. I flew over 40 aircraft types and now have upwards of 12,000 hours. I love aircraft with passion, but my love and appreciation of aircraft is not clouded by prejudice or political reasons whose origins are in the Cold War, a Cold war that has been over for 16 years now
(At the outset of the Pacific war, the American thought the Mitsubishi "Zero" was a piece of sh#t and that Japanese pilots all wore think glasses and could not fly fighters. They also thought their "Brewster Buffalos" were the best fighters in the world until the japs proved them wrong when no Brewster pilot ever came home to tell about his encounters with the nimble "Zero")
I do not think an aircraft has to be "Kosher" to be flown by myself, let alone by CF personnel. Prejudice has no busines in aviation.

I am not against the military or spending money on the military. I had several close relatives in the military. Some went to war. On the contrary, I am for Canada's sovereignty and independence and by independence, I also mean indepedence from a disastrous US Foreign Policy. I am a federalist. I don't think Quebec deserves a bigger share of any contract like some accused me of, just because I am a francophone living in Quebec.

I am not Anti-American. I am againts the Neo-Con US Foreign Policy, which is not a reflection of what the American people or the United States stand for. Canada should in now way be associated with that foreign policy.

This idea that the US is "our friends" is true as a neighbour, as a trading partner, as fellow North Americans.

It is not true as when they are illegal agressors in Iraq to steal that country's oil. It is not true when they will be agressors in Iran. It is not true as agressors against Russia and we must distance ourselves from all that in no uncertain manner.

We should buy and operate what is required by a modern army and cannot be leased (like helicopter gunships, and electronic warfare capability) and stick to leasing what can be leased (like transport ships and transport aircraft that are seldom needed) or let NATO pool and buy and operate those seldom needed items.

The C-17 was an unnecessary Vanity purchase for the military.
It was playing lap poodle to Washington for the Conservative government.

Nothing more. This being said, enjoy the technology...
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Last edited by yultoto on Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
red-neck
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Post by red-neck »

Every acquisition needs a Devils Advocate, however they are only beneficial when used with factual information and a full understanding of the concepts in the environment, which they are to be used. Emotional arguments do not persuade individuals or strengthen your position.

According to your resume/experience I would assume that a better understanding of maintenance and fiscal responsibility in regards to equipment would of led you to the conclusion that taking a 1/2 million pound aircraft and routinely pounding the living crap out of it on a rough austere strip while increasing the risk of ingesting FOD into an expensive engine, would lead Australian commanders to have a very smooth austere strip so as not to compromise the integrity of the aircraft over a lifetime of training. The Touchdown and ground roll is an important part of training however they approach/set-up and crew co-ordination are would be more important for a 200 hour pilot for his/her sight picture when calculating the risk assessment for their commanders/project office.

I am perplexed as to why; your research is so flawed. If you are willing to take the time to call the FSS in YRB to prove that a certain aircraft has landed.

Why not have a beer, let your emotional responses subside. This is not personal attack rather a professional comment, to inform other's reading these posts to ensure that factual information is presented on an aircraft and not the foreign policy of an Allie.
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WJflyer
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Post by WJflyer »

The nature of our work today and that of working in coalitions is that we have to do some heavy lifting for our allies. For example, with our mission in Afghanistan, we have given 5 times as many lifts of American troops and 3 times as many lifts to American equipment compared to how many American lifts have been done for us, personnel and equipment wise. The nature of coalition warfare means each has to help each other, and since American air transport capabilities are stretched very thinly around the world, we pony up and help out. The Americans do appreciate our work, as well as our allies as we often give lifts for them as well.
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