Jazz to Hire Pilots From Schools.

privateer · Post by **privateer** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:27 am

Looks like I'm not flying on Jazz anymore. Our only hope is that the union goes on strike or raises some serious shit!

Jeppesen · Post by **Jeppesen** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:35 am

Wow i didn't know the green eyed monster lives in avcanada.ca

A-Team · Post by **A-Team** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:39 pm

If Jazz is going to hire from schools... well I'm going back to school. How do you do that again?

A-Team · Post by **A-Team** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:43 pm

I could go back to dating college girls too...

"That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age." - Wooderson, Dazed and Confused

I guess that also applies to college girls

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:55 pm

I am hearing no upgrade or payincrease for 10 years for these guys. Can anyone confirm this?

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:08 pm

Rubberbiscuit wrote:I am hearing no upgrade or payincrease for 10 years for these guys. Can anyone confirm this?

I can't see that. They would fall under the same pilot CA that governs all the pilots. The union would blow a gasket, and rightly so!!!
I may be against this hiring decission, but I'm equally against a B scale, and thats what that would be.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:45 pm

Rubberbiscuit wrote:I am hearing no upgrade or payincrease for 10 years for these guys. Can anyone confirm this?

well seeing how they wont have the PIC requirements for the ATPL, unless the rules change these guys wont get upgraded period.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:19 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Rubberbiscuit wrote:I am hearing no upgrade or payincrease for 10 years for these guys. Can anyone confirm this?
well seeing how they wont have the PIC requirements for the ATPL, unless the rules change these guys wont get upgraded period.

For these guys to get their ATPL, it's called PIC under supervision - check your CARs for more info. They'll get their ATPL way before their seniority number comes up for upgrade.

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:35 pm

I thought you had to be sitting in the left seat for PIC under supervision to count. This would imply these guys would have to be able to hold a captains bid first but under the current rules they would not be eligable to bid the captains seat. Seems like it's perma FO for all the 250 hr wonders...

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:35 pm

Valhalla wrote:
C-GGGQ wrote:
Rubberbiscuit wrote:I am hearing no upgrade or payincrease for 10 years for these guys. Can anyone confirm this?
well seeing how they wont have the PIC requirements for the ATPL, unless the rules change these guys wont get upgraded period.
For these guys to get their ATPL, it's called PIC under supervision - check your CARs for more info. They'll get their ATPL way before their seniority number comes up for upgrade.

I know about the supervision thing, but you are only allowed 100 hours of supervised PIC, so unless these guys have minimum 150 PIC graduating from college they aren't going to get that 250 needed.

(4) Experience

An applicant shall have met the training requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane that is not restricted to daylight flying and completed a minimum of 1500 hours total flight time of which a minimum of 900 hours shall have been completed in aeroplanes. The total flight time shall include a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(a) 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes which shall include where applicable, a maximum of 100 hours pilot-in-command under supervision flight time completed in accordance with Section 421.11. The pilot-in-command and/or pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of 100 hours cross-country flight time of which a minimum of 25 hours shall have been by night;

(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;

(c) 100 additional hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command or 200 hours as co-pilot or any combination thereof, with flight time calculated in accordance with section 421.10. Flight time as pilot-in-command may be part of the 250 hours pilot-in-command flight time specified in paragraph (a); and
(amended 2005/12/01; previous version)

(d) 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been acquired in approved instrument ground trainers and a maximum of 35 hours may have been acquired in helicopters. Instrument ground time shall not be applied toward the total 1500 hour flight time requirement.[/b]

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:41 pm

edited cause I'm a mean bastard

_dwj_ · Post by **_dwj_** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:30 pm

Or they could just rent a 152 for 100 hours (or however many hours they need).

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:19 pm

_dwj_ wrote:Or they could just rent a 152 for 100 hours (or however many hours they need).

How are they going to afford to rent an airplane on a Jazz F/O salary?

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:34 pm

WTF pay so they can get upgraded? They should not have to do that. No company should put an employee in that situatuon. Gimme me a break. Even the Capt under sup. They would have to get a trg Capt to do that. (No required but I can't see many line Capt. allowing an inexperienced FO sit in the left seat.) Which means that would take a Trg Capt away from somethng else.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:38 pm

WTF pay so they can get upgraded? They should not have to do that. No company should put an employee in that situatuon

And why not?? I can see your argument if you were using it in a pay for ppc context, but licencing is a personal matter. If the minimum licence required for the job is an ATPL, then have it before you show up. Also, PIC under supervision isn't the same as PIC - there's a couple of guys on the West Coast who lost their float ratings over that..

All IMHO, of course..

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:24 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I thought you had to be sitting in the left seat for PIC under supervision to count.

No it can be done from the right seat.

421.11
(3) (b) the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time may be acquired in the co-pilot's seat provided the pilot-in-command functions described in clauses (i) and (ii) can be performed from the seat. Otherwise, the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of ten hours in the pilot-in-command seat. The pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include:
(i) with the exception of taxiing, at least all the flight functions of a pilot-in-command including flight planning, takeoff, landing, en route flying and approach; and
(ii) a minimum of one takeoff and one landing for each ten hours of flight time.

North Shore wrote:Also, PIC under supervision isn't the same as PIC - there's a couple of guys on the West Coast who lost their float ratings over that..

From a licensing standpoint it is for 100 hours when it really is PIC under supervision (ie. ops spec from TC or a large aeroplane-ops spec not needed). What those float guys were doing was NOT PIC under supervision...

421.11
(1) All air operators using large aeroplanes may institute programs of supervision to allow co-pilots to credit flight time as pilot-in-command time.

(2) Air operators using small aeroplanes and Air operators using helicopters may institute a program of supervision referred to in subsection (1) provided that they have received authorization to do so from the Minister based on the operator’s ability to institute such a program in a safe and effective manner.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:32 pm

Altiplano,

The point I was trying to make is that, as I'm sure you know, PIC takes on a whole different meaning when you are the guy in the seat making the decisions (and wearing the consequences), versus having another guy next to you who you can bounce ideas off, or who can take over if it really hits the fan..

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:34 pm

What those float guys were doing was NOT PIC under supervision...

Nope, they were riding along just to make sure the student didn't crash so they could sign out their float rating....

......It was a very common practice all over Canada and had been going on for years.

And ...no I never did it as I did not give sea plane ratings during that period of time...

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:36 pm

I understand starting RJ FO wages at some US regionals can be as low as 18K a year

I fear in a few years guys will be posting about the good old days when JAZZ paid 37 K to start

Gents there is no good news here.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:09 pm

Methinks several will get the type rating, and head off for greener pastures? Unless Jazz starts making them sign a bond...now, there's a whole new can of worms?

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:49 pm

NS
Don't get me wrong - I agree with you... the circumstance of being supervised is of course different. But it won't matter in the eyes of TC as far as 100 hours is concerned.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:05 am

Doc, just wait until they actually make you pay to join!

Alti, ok - I thought for a while we were on different pages there.

niko · Post by **niko** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:53 am

This is a program designed to give the senior captains' sons and daughters a head start. Most of these kids have way more than 250 hours when they arrive at Jazz. They have been flying daddy's plane and build up lots of hours even before they get into the college programs. These kids are good pilots and they know how to fly the plane. Good sticks but most have attitude problems.

quelquechoseaboire · Post by **quelquechoseaboire** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:05 pm

as far as I am concerned, and from what I've heard it is possible to train a monkey to fly an airplane. And some of the new pilote are much nicer then the old one... if you seen what I mean by that... so even if they don't have as much expericence in the cockpit then the old one... I'll train them in what is really important....

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:16 pm

niko....please don't give us "these kids are good sticks" crap....because that's what it is....CRAP!