Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[rigpiggy]

Professional Engineers built the Titanic, An Amateur built the Ark

Cat sometimes it's better to be Lucky than Good

[Flaperons]

Now, that's a respectable enough resume. How is it you've learned no humility in all that time? Listen to Cat, he may be an old windbag, but at least he has a touch of humility in his old bones.

[BTD]

100% oxygen caused the velcro to burn. The Oxygen wasn't the ignition point.

The review board noted a silver-plated copper wire running through an environmental control unit near the command module pilot's couch which had become stripped of its Teflon insulation and abraded by repeated opening and closing of a small access door. This weak point in the wiring also ran near a junction in an ethylene glycol/water cooling line which was known to be prone to leaks. The electrolysis of ethylene glycol solution with the silver anode was a notable hazard which could cause a violent exothermic reaction, igniting the ethylene glycol mixture in the CM's corrosive test atmosphere of pure, high-pressure oxygen.[8][9]

Though it was never officially located as to the ignition source. But the implication is it was a design flaw.

The design of the hatch opening inward into a pressurized craft could be considered oversight. Even though they were trying to avoid the problem of the 2nd Mercury flight. Oh by the way there is another design flaw for you. Won't link that one though. I'm straying to far!

[Strega]

Professional Engineers built the Titanic, An Amateur built the Ark

Cat sometimes it's better to be Lucky than Good

thats a good one.

[Strega]

100% oxygen caused the velcro to burn. The Oxygen wasn't the ignition point.

The review board noted a silver-plated ... or].[8][9] Thought it was never officially located as to the ignition source. But the implication is it was a design flaw.

The design of the hatch opening inward into a pressurized craft could be considered oversight. Even though they were trying to avoid the problem of the 2nd Mercury flight. Oh by the way there is another design flaw for you. Won't link that one though. I'm straying to far!

BS BS and more BS,,

High pressure oxygen at around 4PSIA!

Wiki is such a joke.

[Strega]

Part of the reason I might come across as an ass, is simply because I have seen friends die making what some here refer to as "mistakes"

How many here have seen a crash and people die in person? I must say it is a terrible thing so see.

[BTD]

Again BS,

How useful would the escape hatch be in orbit or the trip to the moon?

Could have it been designed better? sure, but this was not the primary objective.

Seeing as how they did egress training for such problems I'd say it was a pretty big objective. The role of the hatch was to enter and exit on the ground and on occasionally complete an EVA as on 9, 15,16,17. Using it as a means to escape seems pretty relevant during the design phase.

Anyway, that is straying a little too far to be productive.

[AuxBatOn]

Well, the LEARNED from that accident that having a way to open the hatch from the inside can save lives. And they did modify it. The engineers screwed up. They made a mistake in their design and some people paid the ultimate price for their mistakes. Unlike you, they did not call people stupid, they looked at their mistake, found a way to make it better and changed their design.

You knwo Strega, you seem like someone that is very proud of what you do (this thread, pretending you don't make mistake and people that make them are stupid and the "Engineer vs Engineer" thread, where the Engineer title is worth gold to you). That's fine, as long as your ego doesn't make you dangerous. Right now, I'm puzzled by the fact that you didn't crash one or two airplanes yet.

Cat: I guess we have different definitions of incidents! And incident for me is an occurence where there was a potential for an accident. For example, this morning, after start, our airplane needed a leak check. So, the Ground Crew openes the Hydraulic Panel on the right side of the fuselage before we strapped in. We did our ancilleries check and usually, the ground crew checks for leaks when the flaps are up and closes the panel. He went right ahead and gave us the flaps half signal. He forgot the leack check. We caught it and signaled him that he forgot it. He did it, closed the panel and everything else wasn unevenfull. There was a potential for a take off with an opened panel. We filed a flight safety incident report. That way, our incident will hopefully prevent some in the future.

AuxBatOn

[BTD]

I've seen 2 separate accidents where the pilot was killed. I agree with you it is terrible and I hope that I don't have to see it again.

The second part in that quote you highlighted was mine. Not supposed to be inside the quote. The PSI in the cabin for the test was not 4. It was over 16 to simulate the positive pressure of spaceflight. The spacecraft, however, did not just explode because it was 100% pure oxygen. There was an ignition source.

BTD

[C23flyer]

Part of the reason I might come across as an ass, is simply because I have seen friends die making what some here refer to as "mistakes"

I suspected as much..

[AuxBatOn]

Part of the reason I might come across as an ass, is simply because I have seen friends die making what some here refer to as "mistakes"

How many here have seen a crash and people die in person? I must say it is a terrible thing so see.

I did see a crash. Not too long ago actually. It was because of guess what, en ENGINEERING FLAW!!! LP Turbine Blade departed the fix, ceased the engine. Guys had an ejection seat, thank God.

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

I've seen 2 separate accidents where the pilot was killed. I agree with you it is terrible and I hope that I don't have to see it again.

The second part in that quote you highlighted was mine. Not supposed to be inside the quote. The PSI in the cabin for the test was not 4. It was over 16 to simulate the positive pressure of spaceflight. The spacecraft, however, did not just explode because it was 100% pure oxygen. There was an ignition source.

BTD

yes it was, this is why 100% oxy was used. I dont recall exactly, but I seem to recall if the human body is subjected to 3 or so atmospheres of pure oxygen, it becomes toxic. Any scuba divers here? This is explained in the PADI manual

[Strega]

Part of the reason I might come across as an ass, is simply because I have seen friends die making what some here refer to as "mistakes"

How many here have seen a crash and people die in person? I must say it is a terrible thing so see.

I did see a crash. Not too long ago actually. It was because of guess what, en ENGINEERING FLAW!!! LP Turbine Blade departed the fix, ceased the engine. Guys had an ejection seat, thank God.

AuxBatOn

Perhaps it was an installation flaw, or a production flaw, or a QC flaw......

[BTD]

One last thing.

10. FINDING:

Deficiencies existed in Command Module design, workmanship and quality control, such as:

* Components of the Environmental Control System installed in Command Module 012 had a history of many removals and of technical difficulties including regulator failures, line failures and Environmental Control Unit failures. The design and installation features of the Environmental Control Unit makes removal or repair difficult.
* Coolant leakage at solder joints has been a chronic problem.
* The coolant is both corrosive and combustible.
* Deficiencies in design, manufacture, installation, rework and quality control existed in the electrical wiring.
* No vibration test was made of a complete flight-configured spacecraft.
* Spacecraft design and operating procedures currently require the disconnecting of electrical connections while powered.
* No design features for fire protection were incorporated.

http://history.nasa.gov/Apollo204/find.html
http://history.nasa.gov/Apollo204/content.html

There is your official report.

BTD

[AuxBatOn]

You can ask P&W. New design, supposed to be really good. Put the engine in the airplane, well before time, cracks form, no inspection required for an other while (aren't inspections prescribed by engineers?), next thing you know, you have a 20 M$ airplane in a smoking hole in the ground and 2 shaken pilots.

BTD: Strega doensn't read accident reports. He's above accidents.

AuxBatOn

[BTD]

I've seen 2 separate accidents where the pilot was killed. I agree with you it is terrible and I hope that I don't have to see it again.

The second part in that quote you highlighted was mine. Not supposed to be inside the quote. The PSI in the cabin for the test was not 4. It was over 16 to simulate the positive pressure of spaceflight. The spacecraft, however, did not just explode because it was 100% pure oxygen. There was an ignition source.

BTD

yes it was, this is why 100% oxy was used.

No it wasn't. Unless you are referring to a differential pressure. In which case it would have been around 2.

FINDING:

* The Command Module contained many types and classes of combustible material in areas contiguous to possible ignition sources.
* The test was conducted with a 16.7 pounds per square inch absolute, 100-percent oxygen atmosphere.

[Strega]

Ok my bad,

Im certain there was reasoning behind this particular test well beyond the scope of this forum.

[old metal]

No one is immune from making mistakes.

I wish I was arrogant enough to say that nothing bad will ever happen while i'm in control of an aircraft, being in a deluded world such as that would be wonderfully simple, as would be the person making such a statement.

[BTD]

Ok my bad,

Im certain there was reasoning behind this particular test well beyond the scope of this forum.

No doubt there was reasoning for the test. The issue is that mistakes were made at all levels. By people with PHDs, Test Pilot experience etc. If these people are not above being human. It is hard to believe that others are as well.

Gear may not be the thing that you forget, and I hope that you don't ever miss anything that is life threating. But I'll bet that you have forgot items in the past, and if you can't apply the same logic to forgetting the gear, then you don't know what to look out for and you have to work on foresight.

BTD

[Cat Driver]

Cat: I guess we have different definitions of incidents! And incident for me is an occurence where there was a potential for an accident.

Like I said AuxBaton I have had so many close calls I wouldn't want to start telling you about them for fear you would not be able to sleep at night.

Incident.....something that does not render the airplane unservicable.

Accident.....smashing the thing up to the point you can't fly it again.

Disaster.....coming home after a long contract away from home and servicing the wife then the next day to your horror the thing starts to hurt when you piss and its dripping.

[AuxBatOn]

Cat: I guess we have different definitions of incidents! And incident for me is an occurence where there was a potential for an accident.

Like I said AuxBaton I have had so many close calls I wouldn't want to start telling you about them for fear you would not be able to sleep at night.

Incident.....something that does not render the airplane unservicable.

Accident.....smashing the thing up to the point you can't fly it again.

Disaster.....coming home after a long contract away from home and servicing the wife then the next day to your horror the thing starts to hurt when you piss and its dripping.

[Cat Driver]

[BTD]

yes it was, this is why 100% oxy was used. I dont recall exactly, but I seem to recall if the human body is subjected to 3 or so atmospheres of pure oxygen, it becomes toxic. Any scuba divers here? This is explained in the PADI manual

The reason 100% O2 was used is because it saved weight and was simpler than a system that combined it with Nitrogen. The day of the test the atmosphere would have been slightly above 1 (at 16.7psi absolute). In space it would have been around 5PSI or 33% of 1 atmosphere, if I recall correctly. Not toxic at those levels.

BTD

PS. Don't egg me on or all keep talking spaceflight all night.

[golden hawk]

Seneca college MUST be a phenomenal place, so much so that one gear up landing in a Baron results in an in depth analysis of the 1967 Apollo 1 fire.

[Flaperons]

Interesting, isn't it?

By the way; Strega, when you say "my bad", does that mean you acknowledge that you made a mistake?