Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

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flyinNM
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by flyinNM »

Firtly - this is coming from a US perspective, but a Fixed Wing, SPIFR program. Programs here are all models, this one is all are employees of same (aviation) company - but vendor type operations exist (hospital contracts with an aviation company for aviation services as well as aviation company contracts with hospital to supply nurses and paramedics)

Tried to do some research on Canadian models since not familiar with how things are up there but seems very much the same. Some are same company (STARS, ORNGE in the RW world, Air Mikisew, Keewatin Air, Alberta Air Charters etc in the FW world), most look like medical contracting aviation (BCAS, Aeromedical, Medic North, Saskatchewan and Manitoba government, Yukon EMS etc) and a bunch I can't figure out (most of the central and eastern part of the country...)

But in many ways they are similar to my (unfamiliar) eye. So if an 'accident chain breaking' method can be implemented and mostly seems to work here it should be possible for it to work in Canada as well...

If I was planning on continuing the flight and the nurse (or any other passenger) said that the flight was canceled due to flight safety, there would be a huge problem. This is where every pilot reading this thread is getting their feathers up.
I guess all I can say is that sort of problem, where pilots worry that the nurse or paramedic will make a "flight safety" statement to management and possibly get you in trouble even though you were totally correct (or worse, go running to the FAA right away) is exactly what the policy is supposed to prevent.

By making it a company SOP that if anyone calls it off then it is scrubbed, no questions asked, no justification required, there is no need for any forms or incident reports or meetings where anyone has to explain themselves over a single incident.

That said, the safety committee (with management, aviation, medical, maintenance, admin and management reps) WILL look for developing patterns. Usually this is quarterly or less frequently if there are few reports to look at. That will also protect the pilots.

Say a particular nurse always scrubs - those trips only will be looked at. If the CP agrees the Wx was OK guess who will be sent on a training session or counselled? Also prevents personality conflicts being escalated into job action in the same manner. Names that appear together often get flagged and both are privately interviewed to see why they continually appear on the same cancellations. More often than not - it is the medical crew member who gets further attention.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Cat Driver »

I would be leery of flying with the guy who has the FAA on speed dial.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by bezerker »

Examples please of how SLF (people in the back) can contribute to flight safety.....

I still can't think of any (and apparantly, nor can anyone else).

This is just an ego thing I believe (for the nurses). When a paying passenger (nurse) wants to change the flight, it will be done at the discretion of the Flight Crew, end of story.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Cougar »

I can see both sides of this discussion -- unfortunately.

I work where we function as a team -- yeah, I know that word is overused, but we truly exist as two people doing one job. As PIC, I know that NO MATTER what, I have the final word as to what goes in the aircraft. That doesn't mean I am not going to listen closely and carefully, and with respect, to the guy in my right seat. The experience of that person varies from old salt of 20+ years, to the brand new green kid who's sweating like a bastard.

I say unfortunately above, though, because I have (in the last few years) seen more than one instance of a NEW PILOT pulling some bonehead move, then strutting around in a big balloon of bullshit, declaring they were "PIC", to cover up their messes. I KNOW I can get the true story from the non-pilot crewperson who was with them; the only person destroying the authority of PIC in these situations is the (so-called) (IDIOT) PIC himself.

So.... I don't think we can dismiss either side of this completely. It's a VERY important discussion to keep open -- every new guy I get, we sit and talk about this very subject. I have NEVER had them try to shut me down, perhaps because they know I do respect them, and listen.

Besides, my derriere is in there, too.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Jastapilot »

This thread is a perfect example why you should use the QUOTE function when arguing with someone... it holds them accountable, and prevents them from going back and deleting everything.

this forum tip was brought to you by the PDWTF foundation(Pilots Decide When To Fly). Thank you for your cooperation.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Hot Fuel »

Is there an echo in here...seven pages and all I keep hearing... You can argue your points all you want, I'm not listening. My diplomas mean I'm smarter than everybody else on this site, I'm a pilot so you can't tell me anything about aviation and my penis is larger than my ego....its huge.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Cougar »

If there's a penis in my airplane, you musta brought it with ya....


:lol:
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Brint »

This is totally an ego thing and a lame attempt to feel important. "Ya, I sit in an airplane all the time, so I know all about flying, Let's discuss a routine mission to death to all sound important!"

Like it has been said, a medevac is no different than any other flight. I did a charter last night, it is a wonder I arrived home safe with no medics on board to discuss the flight with. :roll:

For the record, I'm proud of the relationship I have with our medics. We comminicate openly and professionally, I tell them anything they need to know (possible turb, a low and over to check the runway, etc), they tell me what I may need to know. Every one does their job and we go home.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by CD »

sky's the limit wrote:
skysix wrote:
What are the pro's and con's of having a defined (written) policy that encourages (ie: no immediate consequences) all members of a team (pilots and medcrew) to have the ability to terminate/decline a flight at any time for any reason. Colloquially referred to as the "One to say NO rule" or the "51% rule"

Would it clarify the discussion to paste an example of such a policy from an aviation company that uses it?
No problem, it has been somewhat entertaining.

To take the quote above and answer your question: When it comes to flying the airplane or helicopter, you are NOT part of the crew. There needs to be no new "policy that encourages all members of the crew to have the ability to terminate/decline a flight" - it ALREADY exists, the only part you and your cohort can't accept is that you are not part of said "crew." Nor should you be. Despite Skymedic's protests.

This does not preclude co-operation between pilots and Medics, this does not preclude the safe operation of the aircraft, and once again (and for the last time), there are several issues/topics that are being confused here on both sides of this debate.

Regards,

stl
Hey stl...

Just to clarify my point from a few pages ago and add to your post above, the type of operation I was thinking about is F/W where the air operator employs the crew for the aircraft (PIC, FO, CMA) and the passengers are the patient and any additional medical personel required. So in some operations, one of the folks in the back actually is a member of the crew. At the company that I was familiar with, all of the crew members worked well together and respected each other's roles. The operator's cabin medical attendants received the applicable training required by the aviation regulations and the company also conducted joint ground training with all of their crew members. There was never any question regarding the authority of the PIC -- however, the crew resource management was also effective at the company so I don't recall ever hearing about the sorts of issues being brought up here.

With so many different jursidictions in Canada employing different operational requirements, its no wonder that there has been some "misunderstanding" between forum members. Of course, our environment is also quite different from the US and I feel that the problems plaguing the industry down there do not really exist up here (notwithstanding some of the energetic responses elicited in this thread :wink: ).

Anyway, hope that the preparations for your cross-Pacific adventure are well in hand.
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Re: ORNGE...say you didn't...

Post by square »

CuriousBystander wrote:Now there seems to be a great deal of medic bashing in this thread - it's pretty distressing to me as a flight paramedic. I am thankful that in my flight program here in Canada we enjoy a great relationship with our pilots. I would not want to work with many of the posters here though - we would just not get along. Wether you want to admit it or not, I need some input in how the aircraft is going to be flown. Period. Full stop.

Cabin pressure is the most important area where we need to have open dialogue. If I request a specific cabin and you can not provide it, then we have to talk about it, and I need to know about it before we depart.

I am not so interested personally in being in the "go/no go" loop because I trust my PIC/FO's. They have given me no reason not too. And I know they trust me to keep them in the loop re: infectious, psych, or other noteworthy patients. That's CRM - like it or not. And I know that if I did have an issue re: airmanship that my concerns would be heard and handled.
That's perfect! This guy has just described the relative "utopia" of what should be going on. You tell the pilots what conditions you require for your patient and your pilots tell you if the flight is going to happen. The only problem I have with your post is that you think we are medic bashing, which is way off base from what I've read of this thread.

People are only getting a little annoyed at some of the medics on this thread that are trying to be backseat drivers. They know some of the terminology sure, but they do not know the regulations, they do not know what the conditions have to be up to for a safe flight and they do not seem to think the pilots know how to fly safely any better than they do, because they could "just say no" to every mission they have any fuzzy concern about.

I've heard a lot of misguided concerns so far in this thread and they're the reason we don't want medics calling off flights that are there to help the people that need it.

Someone blamed a crash on the fact that a pilot tookoff in 300' ceilings. Well, the majority of MEDEVAC flights are flown IFR, which are the same regulations that every airline flies by. And that means you require 1/2 SM visibility for takeoff, and that's it. You could have a ceiling at five feet but if the visibility reaches half a mile (considerably less than that is required at an airport with runway centerline lighting) your airline flight will takeoff immediately. Every time. There is no safety hazard.

Then a crash was blamed on the fact that a Westwind Jet didn't take on full fuel, while concerns were raised about flying overweight... Well taking on full fuel will dramatically reduce an aircraft's payload but for some reason the flight medic in question was not concerned about full fuel putting the flight overweight.

And then ".. running" comes up in just about every other post. .. running is flying under the clouds.. which in other words is called flying VFR. Every single student pilot, the large majority of private pilots and every air operator in Canada who is flying float planes and single-engine land planes fly under these dangerous VFR rules because it is the easiest possible way to fly. When I went to flight school we all happily went flying through the mountain valleys, before we had our licences, "under the level of the mountains" despite our abject fear because it's a very basic skill. Now if you're pilot starts getting down in the few hundreds with reduced visibility, sure that's more challenging flying but talking about a guy who's at 11,000' as a ".. ." is just being uninformed.

The pilots who have "parked it in" have done so because they have either had too many system failures to handle, or they have flown below the legal minimums, or they have made a mistake that they didn't notice. And those that do will never tell you any of these things before you jump onboard, which is what makes the idea of everyone going through the motions and including you in the details of our preflights a bit silly. I mean the weather could be 5/8 SM and 100' overcast at our point of departure, hovering at minimums at our destination with known icing en-route and the flight is perfectly safe in a well-equipped aircraft with plenty of fuel that has good weather at the alternate. But explaining all of that would be kind of tedious and I doubt most medics and passengers care to know all the details of how safe they are and why they are safe. They don't know what's required or what the concerns are, and they don't need to.

If you are uncomfortable with the legal minimums and requirements your concerns should be addressed to Transport Canada so they can change the laws or to your governing body so they can increase the pilot experience, aircraft equipment or minimum weather requirements for their contracts with air operators.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by maxalt »

I thought I'd add my two bits. Someone may be watching.
I did years of Medevacs, and in the beginning I made all the mistakes many others did, trying to hard to keep what I percieved to be the right thing. These forums weren't available in those days. Communicating what we know to others is the best way to prevent future errors.
After the Air Ambulance system (in Ontario) got really going and everyone with a plane wanted to be in on it the pressure to go got pretty intense for pilots. If you didn't, someone else definitely would and medcom was happy to have it that way. After a few spectacular crashes things changed. Medcom would still send anyone that would go but they increased the standards. We realised to stay in the game we had to be the best at it. No errors, include everyone.
I was clear with everyone that going out in the middle of the nite into less than perfect conditions was a team event, everyone has input, if the medics had something to say speak up. They never interfered with my decision making process, they offered what they had and if I could use it in my decision I would, same as I would from a mechanic or FSS, ATC or anywhere else I could get information that could help.
I spent a lot of days and nights flying around northern Ontario, sometimes landing, sometimes not. I always tried to give them some idea of what the chance of success would be, but I didn't put myself or anyone else at risk, I've even landed only to reject the patient because they were a risk to us. Not what the medic wanted but we are responsible for more than just the patient.
Our responsibility is to take into account all the information available, wherever it comes from, and make a decision.
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Re: ORNGE...say you didn't...

Post by skymedic »

square wrote:
CuriousBystander wrote:Now there seems to be a great deal of medic bashing in this thread - it's pretty distressing to me as a flight paramedic. I am thankful that in my flight program here in Canada we enjoy a great relationship with our pilots. I would not want to work with many of the posters here though - we would just not get along. Wether you want to admit it or not, I need some input in how the aircraft is going to be flown. Period. Full stop.

Cabin pressure is the most important area where we need to have open dialogue. If I request a specific cabin and you can not provide it, then we have to talk about it, and I need to know about it before we depart.

I am not so interested personally in being in the "go/no go" loop because I trust my PIC/FO's. They have given me no reason not too. And I know they trust me to keep them in the loop re: infectious, psych, or other noteworthy patients. That's CRM - like it or not. And I know that if I did have an issue re: airmanship that my concerns would be heard and handled.
That's perfect! This guy has just described the relative "utopia" of what should be going on. You tell the pilots what conditions you require for your patient and your pilots tell you if the flight is going to happen. The only problem I have with your post is that you think we are medic bashing, which is way off base from what I've read of this thread.

People are only getting a little annoyed at some of the medics on this thread that are trying to be backseat drivers. TThey know some of the terminology sure, but they do not know the regulations, they do not know what the conditions have to be up to for a safe flight and they do not seem to think the pilots know how to fly safely any better than they do, because they could "just say no" to every mission they have any fuzzy concern about.

I've heard a lot of misguided concerns so far in this thread and they're the reason we don't want medics calling off flights that are there to help the people that need it.

Someone blamed a crash on the fact that a pilot tookoff in 300' ceilings. Well, the majority of MEDEVAC flights are flown IFR, which are the same regulations that every airline flies by. And that means you require 1/2 SM visibility for takeoff, and that's it. You could have a ceiling at five feet but if the visibility reaches half a mile (considerably less than that is required at an airport with runway centerline lighting) your airline flight will takeoff immediately. Every time. There is no safety hazard.

Then a crash was blamed on the fact that a Westwind Jet didn't take on full fuel, while concerns were raised about flying overweight... Well taking on full fuel will dramatically reduce an aircraft's payload but for some reason the flight medic in question was not concerned about full fuel putting the flight overweight.

And then ".. running" comes up in just about every other post. .. running is flying under the clouds.. which in other words is called flying VFR. Every single student pilot, the large majority of private pilots and every air operator in Canada who is flying float planes and single-engine land planes fly under these dangerous VFR rules because it is the easiest possible way to fly. When I went to flight school we all happily went flying through the mountain valleys, before we had our licences, "under the level of the mountains" despite our abject fear because it's a very basic skill. Now if you're pilot starts getting down in the few hundreds with reduced visibility, sure that's more challenging flying but talking about a guy who's at 11,000' as a ".. ." is just being uninformed.

The pilots who have "parked it in" have done so because they have either had too many system failures to handle, or they have flown below the legal minimums, or they have made a mistake that they didn't notice. And those that do will never tell you any of these things before you jump onboard, which is what makes the idea of everyone going through the motions and including you in the details of our preflights a bit silly. I mean the weather could be 5/8 SM and 100' overcast at our point of departure, hovering at minimums at our destination with known icing en-route and the flight is perfectly safe in a well-equipped aircraft with plenty of fuel that has good weather at the alternate. But explaining all of that would be kind of tedious and I doubt most medics and passengers care to know all the details of how safe they are and why they are safe. They don't know what's required or what the concerns are, and they don't need to.

If you are uncomfortable with the legal minimums and requirements your concerns should be addressed to Transport Canada so they can change the laws or to your governing body so they can increase the pilot experience, aircraft equipment or minimum weather requirements for their contracts with air operators.

As a rebuttal to your statements above.

1. As both a FW pilot and flight paramedic, I know the FAR's and AIM ( regulations in the US) just as well as you do, probably better in fact since I am an avid reader. So, please stop with the blanket statements that all medics are idiots and cannot possibly know something about aviation as well as you.

2. .. Running in RW HEMS in the USA is a HUGE problem, yes it technically means below the clouds, however, when the ceiling is 1500ft and decreasing, your flying 500 below, with terrain that rises up to 2000 in the area, that becomes problematic.....I certainly never stated flying at 110 was .. running unless your flying into Aspen. I think most people who were discussing .. running were gearing it towards RW HEMS in the USA.

3. >90% of the " RW Medevac " flights are flown VFR, NOT IFR.....Again, FW is a completely different animal.


Again, as someone who can speak intelligently and from experience on both sides of the coin, the medical crews just want to go home safely, end of story...Unfortunately, in the USA, that has been difficult to do in the last few years. One can extrapolate with ease why there is so much trepidation coming from the medical crew side. We just want to make an informed decision as to whether or not we even get on the aircraft to begin with...Very Simple Concept.....

Respectfully,
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Flybaby »

skymedic you would seem to be the exception and not the rule. The same way as if the pilot was also a medic, he or she could give intelligent advice for treatment. But since most, if not almost all the time crew in my experience are not duel qualified, the medical crew should handle medical decisions and the flight crew should handle the flight decisions.
But that is the opinion of an Canadian Fixed wing driver, and I do admit that I know very little of the US Fling wing system and the problems that have plague them.
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Last edited by Flybaby on Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Doc »

I know this is a complicated issue. Who is really in charge of what? Here's a simple "rule of thumb". You climb on the aircraft, and buckle your seat belt. If there is a window right in front of you, a set of throttles within easy reach of your right hand, you are the captain. If there is a whole bunch of medical paraphernalia in front of you, and all around you, chances are excellent you are a paramedic. In this case, you will have no say, or vote in anything to do with the flight, except medical issues...period. Don't even consider telling me how to run the ship.....or get out and walk. Simple enough for you? I don't care if you have an MD from Johns Hopkins, you are NOT the pilot.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Hot Fuel »

As both a FW pilot and flight paramedic, I know the FAR's and AIM ( regulations in the US) just as well as you do, probably better in fact since I am an avid reader.
:roll:

Man are you full of yourself...You should get another degree and go into chiropractics, with a head as swollen as yours you are destined for neck and back problems.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Doc »

Hot Fuel wrote:
As both a FW pilot and flight paramedic, I know the FAR's and AIM ( regulations in the US) just as well as you do, probably better in fact since I am an avid reader.
:roll:

Man are you full of yourself...You should get another degree and go into chiropractics, with a head as swollen as yours you are destined for neck and back problems.
I got to tell you skymedic, Hot Fuel and I don't agree on everything, but when we do, we're usually correct. I wouldn't even take you for an airplane ride on a sunny day with your ego. The airplane would be too heavy to taxi!
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by square »

You know actually, it occurs to me that transporting a patient from a hospital to an airport onto an aircraft just to fly around for an hours, do the missed approach and end up at the wrong airport.. could be bad for the patient. Is that true? What's the medical risk involved there? I guess it's a potential reason why the weather conditions are relevant to the medical crew. If you don't make it in, the patient's just getting carried around in airports and airplanes all night.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by skymedic »

Doc wrote:I know this is a complicated issue. Who is really in charge of what? Here's a simple "rule of thumb". You climb on the aircraft, and buckle your seat belt. If there is a window right in front of you, a set of throttles within easy reach of your right hand, you are the captain. If there is a whole bunch of medical paraphernalia in front of you, and all around you, chances are excellent you are a paramedic. In this case, you will have no say, or vote in anything to do with the flight, except medical issues...period. Don't even consider telling me how to run the ship.....or get out and walk. Simple enough for you? I don't care if you have an MD from Johns Hopkins, you are NOT the pilot.

DOC,

As usual, you are missing the bigger picture here....Let me try to break this down a little simpler for you......

1. Nobody is trying to tell you how to fly the plane, or what approach to make IFR...

2. The medical crew has trepidation regarding weather because so many have been parked into the ground as a result of poor weather decisions...

3. The medical crew only wants to know the weather for 2 reasons....
a. To determine if they are even going to step foot on the aircraft with you.
b. Is there any potential weather at the destination site which would force us to the alternate, thereby potentially having major negative consequences for the patient.....


Did i make that simple enough for you? Seriously........Drop the EGO at the door.

Cheers.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by skymedic »

square wrote:You know actually, it occurs to me that transporting a patient from a hospital to an airport onto an aircraft just to fly around for an hours, do the missed approach and end up at the wrong airport.. could be bad for the patient. Is that true? What's the medical risk involved there? I guess it's a potential reason why the weather conditions are relevant to the medical crew. If you don't make it in, the patient's just getting carried around in airports and airplanes all night.


SQUARE,

FINALLY, Someone with a freaking clue and can clearly think outside the checklist.........

You hit the nail on the head....ABSOLUTELY, this could have malignant consequences for the patient.....

For Example,
We board a King Air 200 from KRQE (Window Rock, AZ) for KABQ. We have a critical trauma patient, bilateral chest tubes, Intubated on a ventilator, Blood hanging along with fluids and vasopressors to keep his cardiac output going.....Snowing in Window Rock upon departure, Weather in KABQ at minimums....weather in route at KABQ 10 min out goes to below minimums due to thunderstorms / dust storms / lightning at the airport, now we have to satellite phone back to Window Rock for a new patient destination....We hold outside of KABQ for 25 mins until a call back, our alternative now are Phoenix or backtrack to Flagstaff. Our patient is quickly sucking up O2 due to his ventilator demands, and his BP is marginal despite blood and pressors.. Now, the patient has an additional 60 + min flight to get to an Operating Room and a Surgeon. All due to thinking we could land at KABQ at minimums.......

Now, you boys and girls tell me....Your family is this patient. What would you have done different? I rest my case....

Respectfully,
JW
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by rigpiggy »

Well, mostly we only transport stable patients, or so critical they are going to die if they don't get to YXD,YVR,YXE,YWG,YTH,YYZ,YUL,YQM, or YHZ anyway. There aren't many trauma centers outside of those places, you have what 5 times that in California itself. AS far as whether or not we go well there are only 3 options when they ask if we'll make it.

1. No Problem ie MVFR or better,
2. 50/50 ie 500/2>200-1/2
3. back to the barn, put on the coffee.

As my Wife would say, I am not well insured enough. So I had better not Die, or She'll kill me.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by bezerker »

skymedic, you have rested sweet f' all.

You have just explained how little you understand about weather and flying IFR in marginal weather. I could have posted an example where the customer wanted to divert because he though it was marginal and then the wx cleared up and every plane landed there for the next few hours (and the patients family wants to know why we diverted, wasted hours, and the patient died)

Just what the last poster said. If we think we may not get in, we tell you there is a chance we may not get in (just like every other customer). You then tell us what you want to do and go back to worrying about the stuff in the back.

Either way, your example had absolutely nothing to do with flight safety, or nurses deciding flight safety. Just pilots keeping the passengers informed so that they can get them where they want to go.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by Flybaby »

For Example,
We board a King Air 200 from KRQE (Window Rock, AZ) for KABQ. We have a critical trauma patient, bilateral chest tubes, Intubated on a ventilator, Blood hanging along with fluids and vasopressors to keep his cardiac output going.....Snowing in Window Rock upon departure, Weather in KABQ at minimums....weather in route at KABQ 10 min out goes to below minimums due to thunderstorms / dust storms / lightning at the airport, now we have to satellite phone back to Window Rock for a new patient destination....We hold outside of KABQ for 25 mins until a call back, our alternative now are Phoenix or backtrack to Flagstaff. Our patient is quickly sucking up O2 due to his ventilator demands, and his BP is marginal despite blood and pressors.. Now, the patient has an additional 60 + min flight to get to an Operating Room and a Surgeon. All due to thinking we could land at KABQ at minimums.......

Now, you boys and girls tell me....Your family is this patient. What would you have done different? I rest my case....

Respectfully,
JW
I don't know how your system works, but in mine, I would advise central dispatch of the likelihood of success, and available alternates and they would decide whether or not or not to send the patient.
The example you have brought up has nothing to do with flying it has to due with patient management. If the patient is not stable enough to survive the trip if we miss, the question arises if the patient should have been accepted in the first place. Maybe they would be better off in a lower care facility. Bottom line is this is not the argument, medical takes care of medical calls, like whether to accept the patient. And Flight, takes care of flight calls like whether it is safe to go.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by square »

Oh that makes sense.

Never done a medevac so this is all new to me.
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by skymedic »

bezerker wrote:skymedic, you have rested sweet f' all.

You have just explained how little you understand about weather and flying IFR in marginal weather. I could have posted an example where the customer wanted to divert because he though it was marginal and then the wx cleared up and every plane landed there for the next few hours (and the patients family wants to know why we diverted, wasted hours, and the patient died)

Just what the last poster said. If we think we may not get in, we tell you there is a chance we may not get in (just like every other customer). You then tell us what you want to do and go back to worrying about the stuff in the back.

Either way, your example had absolutely nothing to do with flight safety, or nurses deciding flight safety. Just pilots keeping the passengers informed so that they can get them where they want to go.

Dude,

Did you even bother to READ the entire post? My god man......... I was NOT trying to show anything about FLIGHT SAFETY......I was giving an example on how poor decision making can lead to an adverse outcome for a patient. I NEVER said anything about the flight being done unsafe.......PLEASE, if you do anything else....READ and COMPREHEND before opening mouth and inserting foot again.....It is one thing to let people think you are an idiot, it is wholly different to open your mouth and remove all doubt.....FYI the KABQ TAF clearly called for the weather to be at or below minimums before we took off from Window Rock....Although, that tidbit of info was not passed along to the medical crew.....Had I known this little bit of information, I would have said NO to KABQ and tried to find a bed in PhX or FLG BEFORE we took off, instead of 10 min out from ABQ in a holding pattern with a critical patient.....

Furthermore, I have landed FW Medevac flights many times at minimums, however, this particular flight the pilots swore up and down they would have no problem getting into ABQ based on " THEIR" weather information.....So, that is why we journeyed on to KABQ.....I had every confidence the flight would be done safely or I would have refused to even leave quarters...Simple as that....

Cheers..
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Re: Pax Input (Medevac) - Split from ORNGE thread

Post by skymedic »

Flybaby wrote:
For Example,
We board a King Air 200 from KRQE (Window Rock, AZ) for KABQ. We have a critical trauma patient, bilateral chest tubes, Intubated on a ventilator, Blood hanging along with fluids and vasopressors to keep his cardiac output going.....Snowing in Window Rock upon departure, Weather in KABQ at minimums....weather in route at KABQ 10 min out goes to below minimums due to thunderstorms / dust storms / lightning at the airport, now we have to satellite phone back to Window Rock for a new patient destination....We hold outside of KABQ for 25 mins until a call back, our alternative now are Phoenix or backtrack to Flagstaff. Our patient is quickly sucking up O2 due to his ventilator demands, and his BP is marginal despite blood and pressors.. Now, the patient has an additional 60 + min flight to get to an Operating Room and a Surgeon. All due to thinking we could land at KABQ at minimums.......

Now, you boys and girls tell me....Your family is this patient. What would you have done different? I rest my case....

Respectfully,
JW
I don't know how your system works, but in mine, I would advise central dispatch of the likelihood of success, and available alternates and they would decide whether or not or not to send the patient.
The example you have brought up has nothing to do with flying it has to due with patient management. If the patient is not stable enough to survive the trip if we miss, the question arises if the patient should have been accepted in the first place. Maybe they would be better off in a lower care facility. Bottom line is this is not the argument, medical takes care of medical calls, like whether to accept the patient. And Flight, takes care of flight calls like whether it is safe to go.

Fly,
Normally I would agree with you, however, the Navajo Reservation and the Indian Health System hospitals are, well.....let's say a little bit above Haiti right now......There are zero services for critical patients, much less severely injured trauma patients who need a Trauma Surgeon. This requires flying the patient no matter what the diagnosis or prognosis. My entire issue was not about whether or not I thought the pilots could fly the plane safely and land, my issue was can we LAND at all because of weather...Ended up we couldnt, and just wasted a bunch of precious resources flying around in circles to try to keep this patient alive long enough to get him into a Surgeon.....When we finally landed in KPHX, we took him in straight into the Operating Room. Only 2.5hrs longer than what should have taken if we had know about the forecasted ABQ weather upon arrival time......

Respectfully,
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