F-35 looking more like white elephant

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shitdisturber
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by shitdisturber »

Hedley wrote:Are they the same ones that promoted Russ Williams?
I'm really getting tired of that idiotic statement. Obviously Williams should have been weeded out a long time ago because as we all know, people like him wander around with signs hanging from their necks saying "I'm a psychopath, lock up your wives and daughters". :roll: Obviously the rapes and murders are all my fault; when he reported to 412 squadron in 94, I could have dropped something heavy on his head from the balcony in the hangar since he was so obviously dangerous. Just like it was your father's fault that Cold Lake sucked when I was posted there, he should have predicted my arrival and made it a better place.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Hedley »

Uh, it was a "yes" or "no" question, actually, not an essay question.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Moose47 »

<<<Frosti said "Russians don't invade our airspace, they are always within the international boundaries. Please don't suggest that there is a threat of Russian fighters coming over the Arctic Ocean to start a fight,"

No they just drift in on ice islands. This happened on more than one occasion. On the 22nd of September 1974, two Canadian Forces CF-5's from 434 'Bluenose' Squadron carried out a recce of Soviet Ice Island NP-22 (drifting ice island) in Canadian territory. The Russians had a major camp there and were supported by An-2's and Mi-8 helicopters. Perhaps not as dramatic as a MiG 25 but still operating in Canadian airspace nonetheless without consent of the government.

The 'Bluenosers' were back up north again in April 1977 after the Russians drifted into Canadian territorial waters. This time there were at least 8 An-2's and a number of helicopters supporting the operation. Defence Minister Barney Danson flew over the Russians and dropped a container with the message in it saying "Welcome to Canada". Go figure!

Cheers...Chris
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Darkwing Duck »

Hedley wrote: The romper boys keep saying over and over again that we need to have blind faith in the air force generals, who never make a mistake. Ok. I really don't want to go there, but if you insist, we will. Two words: Russ Williams. The same air force generals that repeatedly promoted that psychopath and made him base commander at Trenton, now want us to have blind faith in their perfect judgement as to how we spend billions and billions of taxpayer dollars?! :shock:
A little behind the eight ball here on the topic, just reading through a few things so if this has been addressed already my apologies. Headly, while I agree with you most times Russ Williams' wife did not even know he was doing what he was doing. How do you expect the Generals to know this? Also I worked with the Luftwaffe during Maple Flag when they brought in thier MiG-29s. These POS were the last to launch and the 1st to return for each hop because the range was non existant. Also the amount of man hours the ground crew put into the maintenance of those pigs was by far longer and more intense then any of the other aircraft on that flight line. Now of course those were the 29's, not sure what the newer stuff is like but my guess is the apple does not fall far from the tree.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Hedley »

the amount of man hours the ground crew put into the maintenance of those pigs was by far longer and more intense then any of the other aircraft on that flight line
I can't speak for the MiG, but my experience living with two L39's has been the complete opposite. Brilliant engineering for simple, low maintenance, compared to it's western counterparts. You probably won't have any respect for his opinion, but when I issued my (ex-RCAF CF-104 test pilot) father his L39 type rating, after completion of his ground school he exclaimed, "What an sophisticated airplane! But all that for only 4000 lbs of thrust?!" Yes, but that's one reason why it is so incredibly reliable.

As far as Sukhoi goes, their SU-26 and SU-29 generally spank everyone at the World Aerobatic Contest. Admitted that's a bit distant from the SU-27, but I don't know of any aerobatic pilots that wouldn't be eternally grateful if you gave them an SU-26 or SU-29.

I am sure the Russians have their lemons too, but to tar them all with a bigoted "they're all Russian junk" is competely untrue. It distresses me that the Canadian military appears to universally treat potential adversaries with such total, parochial contempt. Reminds me of how the USA got their @sses handed to them in the skies over North Vietnam.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Rockie »

Hedley wrote:Ok. I think people are starting to admit that technically, we could take a Russian
airframe& engines, and fit it with Western avionics, etc and have a heluva aircraft
at a great price per airframe for the poor, long-suffering taxpayer who is looking
at one mother of a deficit.

But it ain't gonna happen because of the politics and cultural biases.
It seems I was wrong about NATO countries using the Mig29. I guess I'm behind the times and don't consider former east block countries as a real military part of NATO since they weren't when I was in.

When I was in NATO one of the things we had to do regularly was fly our airplanes to other NATO nation airbases to exercise and test their ability to support, arm and launch our aircraft. All NATO Central European bases were required to support other nation's aircraft, and in fact doing so was part of the NATO TacEval certification. It didn't always go so well despite many years of experience with those airplanes.

The Mig 29 and acceptance of Russian equipped former east bloc nations into NATO puts a bit of a wrench into that. While supporting and arming the Mig might be easy in Poland or Lithuania (in fact much easier than supporting a CF-18), it is not so in Denmark or Great Britain. Former east bloc countries already have the knowledge and infrastructure to support those aircraft while western countries don't, and as Hedley points out they are much cheaper which actually makes them the only real practical choice for those countries that don't have a lot of money to spend on their own defense (remember the USSR isn't paying for it anymore).

A western country like Canada cannot equip with Migs for the opposite reason Poland can. We don't have the knowledge or infrastructure to support the airplane, and none of our NATO partners except the former east bloc countries have the ability to support the Mig. While having a logistical support and supply train dependent on Russia is acceptable to former east bloc nations for various reasons, mostly budgetary, it is not acceptable for a western NATO country. This is pure military practicality, an airplane is no good if your spare parts and weapons tap gets turned off by Russia for any reason. Politics are only part of the equation.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by CSk3RampBOY »

frosti wrote:
CSk3RampBOY wrote:What I don't understand is, how can we possibly patrol the arctic with the F35???? Single engine and less range, or at least that's what they advertise.
What is wrong with "patrolling" the arctic with one engine? How many cases have you heard of our CF-18's lose an engine while "patrolling". Less range compared to what? The F35 has more internal fuel capacity than our CF-18's fully jugged up.

Just to clear something up, we don't send fighters up north to patrol a.k.a, fly around for nothing. NORAD is there for a reason, when it sees a threat they will alert the proper fighter base installations.
How can the F35 intercept the new Su35 BM when the Russians continue to invade our airspace? Its a long way to the arctic from Cold Lake.

The Pak Fa or T50, may be a few years away from joining the Air Force. But this baby is a real threat!
Russians don't invade our airspace, they are always within the international boundaries. Please don't suggest that there is a threat of Russian fighters coming over the Arctic Ocean to start a fight, I'm not going to explain why that is such a ridiculous idea. There are military installations much further north for fighters to operate out of besides Cold Lake, anyone with access to Google Earth can figure out what they are.
I wonder how many F16s have been lost to bird strikes? Can you put the F35 in that same category? What about in a combat scenario, where the only engines gets shot up over the north? The F35 carries more fuel, but does it have the same range? IS the F35 a proven and reliable design? Look at the F22 program, the aircraft was just plagued with critical failures. There's even a case where the F22 almost got lost over the Pacific one the way to Gaum when its navigation system crashed. The F35, as with most new programs, will have their issues. Why can't we go with a proven design?

So you claim that the reason the armed forces opted for the F35 was based on the opinions of the experts. :roll: C'Mon, you and I know that a large of part of the decision making is purely political and economic. The benefits of purchasing the F35 is great for Canadian industries. Did the experts look at all the facts? Boeing complained last year that the Canadian forces ignored the Stealth properties of the Super Hornet.

Your missing the point! What's the purpose of the military installations in the north, when the jets spend almost all their time in Cold Lake/Bagotville. The F35s are most likely still going to have to take a journey up north.

The Russians are not out to bomb cities anymore, they're out for the natural resources in the north. To this day, they don't recognize much of our territory in the north belonging to Canada, as a sovereign state. Over the past year, i've read two Moscow pravda articles regarding the Canadian northern borders as being, "disputed".
So if NORAD dispatches F35s to the north to intercept another Bear, how effective will the F35 be? What if the Russians start taking a more aggressive role and start escorting the Bears with two SU35BMs.

If the Russians are not invading our airspace, they are surely coming close on a regular basis! How do you explain this?

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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Rockie »

CSk3RampBOY wrote:So you claim that the reason the armed forces opted for the F35 was based on the opinions of the experts. C'Mon, you and I know that a large of part of the decision making is purely political and economic.
Canadian military history is replete with examples of political interference changing the stated military requirements of an equipment purchase. Anybody remember ship borne helicopters?

Single engine + high arctic - SAR capability = BAD
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by CSk3RampBOY »

Rockie wrote:
CSk3RampBOY wrote:So you claim that the reason the armed forces opted for the F35 was based on the opinions of the experts. C'Mon, you and I know that a large of part of the decision making is purely political and economic.
Canadian military history is replete with examples of political interference changing the stated military requirements of an equipment purchase. Anybody remember ship borne helicopters?

Single engine + high arctic - SAR capability = BAD
Exactly!
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by 2R »

Usama Bin Ladens brother owns a biotech company in Baltimore.It is within commuting distance from Fort Deitrich.
The F-35 is no match for the weapons that such a Lab can make.Do not tell the UMMericans as they think the lab is a civilian project ,that is no threrat to them.
I remember the debate at the old Avro Factory when they rolled out the CF-18 .Many of those present thought it was already redundant.A fighter that is SLOW can only pull nine g's going up against missiles that can fly at mach nine and pull 50 gs.And that was before the newer target acquisition capabilties of the next gen missiles.
Being stealthy is only a small part of staying aloft in any fur ball where the ground can fire death at mach nine towarrds the fighters.
The factory that day was filled with old men who would lie ,so young men could die(to paraphrase Kipling)
Everyone was proud at Mcdonnel Douglas in Toronto that day about the Canadian contribution towards the new fighter.
In those days the cost of killing an enemy soldier was put at 53 cents using conventional weapons ,13 cents using nuclear weapons ,and eight cents using chemical and biologicals in the European theatre.
The cost of killing one Taliban must be at least twenty bucks by now,the true costs are hidden.
Biologicals are the cheapest and most nasty form of warfare and will be the future of warfare according to a report at the time written by the same people who trained the wests biggest enemy.
The Bin laden family that also owns the very means to deliver a prion protein based slow poison that by the time anyone noticed the first case of poisoning the entire population would be so weakened that nobody would be fit enough to fly these expensive new toys.The Bin Laden family is the largest purveyor of sesame seeds to the USA from the Sudan.
The F-35 is no match against a determined enemy.Destroying another countries airforce or their army or navy is a meaningless capability against an enemy that hides amongst a civilian population.
The money would be better spent on food security.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Expat »

Moose47 wrote:<<<Frosti said "Russians don't invade our airspace, they are always within the international boundaries. Please don't suggest that there is a threat of Russian fighters coming over the Arctic Ocean to start a fight,"

No they just drift in on ice islands. This happened on more than one occasion. On the 22nd of September 1974, two Canadian Forces CF-5's from 434 'Bluenose' Squadron carried out a recce of Soviet Ice Island NP-22 (drifting ice island) in Canadian territory. The Russians had a major camp there and were supported by An-2's and Mi-8 helicopters. Perhaps not as dramatic as a MiG 25 but still operating in Canadian airspace nonetheless without consent of the government.

The 'Bluenosers' were back up north again in April 1977 after the Russians drifted into Canadian territorial waters. This time there were at least 8 An-2's and a number of helicopters supporting the operation. Defence Minister Barney Danson flew over the Russians and dropped a container with the message in it saying "Welcome to Canada". Go figure!

Cheers...Chris

These were Soviets, not Russians...
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Expat »

And the Russians now are allies...well...almost... :smt040

The wild card is south of the 49th... :shock:
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by trampbike »

Hedley wrote:Uh, it was a "yes" or "no" question, actually, not an essay question.
But you do realise attacking someone or a group of people is not an argument right?
Pointing the occasional flaws (especially when the said flaws are not even related to the debate subject) of a person or a group brings nothing to a debate.

On the other hand, attacking their positions and ideas with rational arguments is a good and valid way to debate about something. You are intelligent and knowledgeable. I'm pretty sure you can put it to good use in such debate.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by cdnpilot77 »

trampbike wrote:
Hedley wrote:Uh, it was a "yes" or "no" question, actually, not an essay question.
But you do realise attacking someone or a group of people is not an argument right?
Pointing the occasional flaws (especially when the said flaws are not even related to the debate subject) of a person or a group brings nothing to a debate.

On the other hand, attacking their positions and ideas with rational arguments is a good and valid way to debate about something. You are intelligent and knowledgeable. I'm pretty sure you can put it to good use in such debate.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Expat »

More oil on the fire...

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/ ... story.html


Canadian military can't refuel controversial fighter jet in mid-air



The Defence Department listed air-to-air refuelling as a mandatory capability for any new fighter aircraft Canada purchases, prompting some aerospace industry executives to privately question why this critical feature was ignored for the F-35 purchase. The refuelling is needed if the jets are going to cover long distances.




Canada wants to purchase the same type of F-35 being ordered by the U.S. air force. However, the F-35 being built for the U.S. navy carries the equipment needed to be refuelled by tankers such as the ones operated by the Canadian Forces.


"The airplane design can accommodate both refuelling systems," explained Burbage. "Canada has asked us to look at putting the navy refuelling system in the airplane and the air force refuelling system is already in it."



In it? The plane is not built yet??? :shock:
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Beefitarian »

Expat wrote:In it? The plane is not built yet??? :shock:
Well... technically that's true. But.. They pointed at the picture of the one with the airforce style system in the catalog.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Expat »

Beefitarian wrote:
Expat wrote:In it? The plane is not built yet??? :shock:
Well... technically that's true. But.. They pointed at the picture of the one with the airforce style system in the catalog.

What a bunch of incompetent generals...
They are as bad as the politicians... :smt040
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Expat »

Even worse...


The government has suggested the jets are required to defend Canada's Arctic from Russian warplanes as well as to take part in overseas missions...

...The plane is mainly designed for attacking targets on the ground as opposed to being an air-to-air fighter aircraft. That has prompted some critics to question the purchase since the main role for the planes is to patrol the country's airspace in a sovereignty protection mission.
I guess we want to attack the Russkies on the ground, when they stop for ice fishing... :smt040

What a load this is...
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Post by Beefitarian »

In a lot of ways I just hope they get on it. I'm confident they'll get ripped off regardless of what they buy. It's the American way.

Could we re-start the Arrow for the money they're going to spend?

The Bombardier Arrow.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Mrs.Robinson »

I love it, Conservative competence at it's best. We don't need a competitive bid, we will just buy the one we can't refuel. 16 billion $ BS, I call 32 billion $ and more after all the F U's.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Brewguy »

Expat wrote:And the Russians now are allies...well...almost... :smt040

The wild card is south of the 49th... :shock:
"The Russians, they're our allies!"
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by AuxBatOn »

Few Points:

1- The F-35A is indeed flying and built. It's actually in LRIP5 IIRC. So it would be "adding" the Navy probe and drogue system.

2- This is not news. It's been known for quite some time and solutions have been analysed

3- They can add the Probe and Droge and have both types of refueling system.

4- Building our own aircraft sounds great, but it would cost a lot more than 9B$ and would take much more than 6-7 years. No, the CF-105 would not be suitable.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by modi13 »


Rick Mercer is definitely a Harper-loving, sycophantic, brainwashed Conservative sheep. :rolleyes:
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by ICEDUDE »

AuxBatOn wrote:2- This is not news. It's been known for quite some time and solutions have been analysed

3- They can add the Probe and Droge and have both types of refueling system.
Exactly...I guess it is news to others on here, but there are senior personnel who are involved with procurement of new equipment. The PM doesn't get the specs from the kid at Future Shop who just sold you your microwave, camera and TV.

Among those who are involved with the procurement of new jets would include fighter pilots, who are quite familiar with the fact that we would require the probe and drogue system. I wouldn't be surprised if other countries interested in the F35 were to request a similar setup if they sign on.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by winds_in_flight_wtf »

modi13 wrote:
Rick Mercer is definitely a Harper-loving, sycophantic, brainwashed Conservative sheep. :rolleyes:
Maybe he just wants the best tools for the men and women who go to sleep at night knowing there is a risk of a mortar shell landing in their bunk? Someone trolling on avcanada (yourself) , obviously does not have this worry. I think you are the liberal loving- sycophantic, brainwashed - anal retentive bottom feeder who looks to run his mouth at any chance possible. Go stick your head in the snow.
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