Renegotiating with Air Canada

[Localizer]

Apparently when AC made the decision to transfer the 175's to SKR, ALPA brought the issue back to Teplitsky because they believed it violated the SJA. If you recall those 15 E175's were suppose to be Jazz 705's, but the argument was AC pilots would lose jobs without those a/c because AC was planning on shedding some other a/c (I believe some of the A319's) .. that never happened. Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

[Fanblade]

Apparently when AC made the decision to transfer the 175's to SKR, ALPA brought the issue back to Teplitsky because they believed it violated the SJA. If you recall those 15 E175's were suppose to be Jazz 705's, but the argument was AC pilots would lose jobs without those a/c because AC was planning on shedding some other a/c (I believe some of the A319's) .. that never happened. Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

Thanks Loc,

This is before my time and looks to have been removed from the FOS contract. There is a notwithstanding clause in article one but the LOC itself shows deleted. I'm going to assume that makes ACPA a bystander on this issue now.

Your last line uses the word transfer. Is that an error? AC doesn't have any SJ's left to transfer. I assume what you are saying is if AC were to acquire any SJ's Teplitsky would send them to Jazz.

Does this agreement have an expiry date? Or does it go on forever?

[Localizer]

The agreement was upheld in Feb 2013 .. I don't recall what constitutes a "small jet". I believe the agreement either has no expiration or forms part of the Jazz CPA.

[DBC]

Contractually to ACPA, "Small Jet Aircraft" are up to 55 seats or less. "Medium Jet Aircraft" are in excess of 55 but not more than 90 seats and CPA carriers can operate up to 60 of them at a max of 76 seats.

[Fanblade]

Thanks DBC. So it comes down to Teplitsky controlling the allocation of 90 seat jets with 76 seats in them. AC doesn't control where they go.

60 are allowed. 31 are operating currently. 29 more can operate, but if AC acquires them Teplitsky will give them to Jazz, the more expensive operator. AC likely wants them at Sky or GGN as part of their (cheaper) regional diversification strategy.

So there is a stalemate. You know I didn't realize just how convoluted this situation was.

If AC thinks they are trapped in a non competitive situation that they can't get the parties to address, it may force them to take a much more aggressive approach. Or just wait for the first opportunity to opt completely out of a CPA with Jazz. No wonder Chorus and AC's relationship is so strained.

This type of situation, if not addressed, won't end well.

[rudder]

Jump forward .. Teplitsky as I understand it wasn't impressed with the dealings (intentionally deceived him), but AC had already made the transfer to SKR, he let it go with the caveat any future transfers are to Jazz.

Where does is say that in his January 29, 2013 award?

[Localizer]

It doesn't ..

I heard that from an individual that was part of the process.

[Fanblade]

Rumour has it that ACPA has a TA with Air Canada that will allow a dramatic increase in the amount to 76 seat aircraft flown at the Regionals.

I wasn't given any specifics. Just reassured that all flying above 76 seats remains at mainline.

[Bajan Pilot]

Here we go with those rumours again.

[Fanblade]

Your right. There is no TA. We just got an email stating its getting close and details will be shared when able.

That's what happens when you post rumours. My bad

It appears a crucial “hurdle" was cleared. What ever that means

[hithere]

How is it that the ACPA membership gets email updates about negotiations that affect Jazz yet the Jazz pilots are completely in the dark? Despite our pleas for information the Jazz pilots are told that ALPA has signed non disclosure agreements that prevent them from divulging even the most basic information about the informal talks that are going on between AC/ACPA/JAZZ/ALPA. We were told that all parties signed the NDA. Yet ACPA continues to provide these email updates. I also saw the memo from the ACPA scope committee a while back that gave more information than I thought possible under a NDA. Also, The FOS already allowed for a significant increase in 76 seats and under flying at the regionals, so why was this considered a hurdle?

[Fanblade]

Hithere,

ACPA isn't involved in any talks or negotiations that involve ALPA Jazz or Chorus.

My guess is what falls out of the ACPA/AC negots, is centre to the Jazz/Chorus/AC negots. That would be your unions decision on how to deal with it.

I think the openness from ACPA is out of a TA1 repeat fear.

FWIW there was also a scope webinar which went even deeper. I missed it but watched it on the ACPA site after. It looks to me that the 29:100 ratio is problematic for AC. It showed AC could get only about 16 more 76 seat aircraft before running into the ratio.

[dukepoint]

How is it that the ACPA membership gets email updates about negotiations that affect Jazz yet the Jazz pilots are completely in the dark? Despite our pleas for information the Jazz pilots are told that ALPA has signed non disclosure agreements that prevent them from divulging even the most basic information about the informal talks that are going on between AC/ACPA/JAZZ/ALPA. We were told that all parties signed the NDA. Yet ACPA continues to provide these email updates. I also saw the memo from the ACPA scope committee a while back that gave more information than I thought possible under a NDA. Also, The FOS already allowed for a significant increase in 76 seats and under flying at the regionals, so why was this considered a hurdle?

To be frank.....all tier II flying, be it Chorus, Georgian or SR, was ACPA flying that was either negotiated away, arbitrated away, or lost through restructuring. The size of aircraft, and the number of aircraft at tier II is restricted by Article One in the Air Canada Pilots Association collective agreement....which means Air Canada pilots have a direct say in how many aircraft are at the regionals, how big the are, and how their aircraft are powered. ACPA is currently concluding Negots that could drastically alter the CPA ratio. In fact, rumour has it that the ratio restricting the size of the CPA providers may be dumped altogether. The result of this agreement will likely be a serious positive for the Regional carriers, as Calin has an interest in drastically increasing feed to the Mainline to support proposed Widebody growth.

The results of these negotiations should be known by the end of the week. Standby.


DP.

[snowcone]

Rumour has it that ACPA has a TA with Air Canada that will allow a dramatic increase in the amount to 76 seat aircraft flown at the Regionals.

I wasn't given any specifics. Just reassured that all flying above 76 seats remains at mainline.

But is that not for transborder feeder traffic. I thought they were looking at US regionals for that flying?

[teacher]

There is no money in domestic flying. CR knows that. The big money is in international. BUT to fill the planes going overseas AC needs a regional carrier. One that is stable, reliable and provides a top tier product that can do it cheaper than AC (and it's competitors). It's the way the industry has been going since deregulation. Ticket prices are not going up but costs from fuel to planes have gone up many times over.

I think we are going to see it soon with pluses for all parties involved. There will be some give and take but from a business prospective I think it will be a good deal. Isn't the best deal the one where nobody is happy?

[dukepoint]

With respect to "no one being happy" with the pending deal, I assure you that the ACPA Membership at large will be very happy. Since our contract or FOS arbitrated "agreement" is currently closed, we have zero obligation to sign anything that isn't a great deal. Most of us would happily wait till 2016.

The devil will be in the details, and we intend to scrutinize them very closely.

DP.

[Fanblade]

Rumour has it that ACPA has a TA with Air Canada that will allow a dramatic increase in the amount to 76 seat aircraft flown at the Regionals.

I wasn't given any specifics. Just reassured that all flying above 76 seats remains at mainline.

But is that not for transborder feeder traffic. I thought they were looking at US regionals for that flying?

I really have no idea where these aircraft may go.

The impression I am getting ( I stress impression) is that AC wants to up gauge it's entire regional network. Bye bye to the -8/100/300 and crj/100/200.

I have my doubts a US regional could be used in any substantial way because of the language laws applying to Air Canada. Out west I suppose. But out east? Doubt it.

[Fanblade]

[quote="teacher"]BUT to fill the planes going overseas AC needs a regional carrier. One that is stable, reliable and provides a top tier product that can do it cheaper than AC (and it's competitors). It's the way the industry has been going since deregulation[/quote]

I disagree. Initially the idea was to simply do the work cheaper than mainline. Comair and Eagle are good examples. Today the CPA providers must be cost competitive with other CPA providers.

The whole point behind AC's regional diversification strategy is to create an environment of competition for the work. The second competition enters the equation only one body will benefit. That is he who holds the purse strings. Everyone else loses.

[leftoftrack]

If it saves air canada $100 over 5 years they will continue to move flying to Sky Regional

[tdp19]

Your right. There is no TA. We just got an email stating its getting close and details will be shared when able.

That's what happens when you post rumours. My bad

It appears a crucial “hurdle" was cleared. What ever that means

It must have just happened this week then because I read a memo from Sept 17th, pretty much saying that talks fell apart primarily due to scope?

[dukepoint]

Talks are back on. They never stopped. Bit of posturing was all.

DP.

[Calinrobandfistyou]

What's the latest? Any updates?

[dukepoint]

The car has been ordered, and the "base price" agreed to.

Diamond Coat, undercoat, floor mats, mud flaps, bra, pine air freshener, and the box of melons......... to be negotiated.

May take a bit, especially the melon negots....... but the basics are covered.

DP.

[tdp19]

New TD for AC Pilots (10 Years)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... cmpid=rss1

[Calin Robandfistyou]

From a Jazz pilots point of view, what do you think of the proposed ACPA TA just released?

-Props now scoped to 80 seats
-Jets scoped to 76 seats
-EMJ staying at mainline
-no mention of flow thru

Only positive is the "potential" for growth, however I fear it will all be at Sky and Georgian.

Hopefully our ALPA boys can hammer out a flow thru soon. What would you want to see in a flow thru agreement?

Personally I'd like to see:
-up to 5 years of service brought over for pay/ vacation purposes
-keep your jazz seniority number for pass travel
-seniority numbers given to all jazz pilots regardless of whether or not they flow over so that we will be ahead of new hires off the street to mainline if we do decide to stay at Jazz a couple extra years, no rush to go ASAP. Same as What Encore has.