Flow through to AC

[Fanblade]

AC will continue to not fill classes until flat pay is abolished or minimized to one year (but still much higher). Looking at the terrible take home wages at WJ for newer FOs all AC needs to do is offer $80-90/hr to start and we'd likely drain the bottom end of their 737 FO roster.

If AC thought strategically they could lay a significant blow to their direct competitors overnight. Instead I feel like they're too worried about letting ACPA get a big win.

The same can be said for ANY airline in the country. The first one to significantly raise their wages and become a desirable employer will seriously impact all completion!

It honestly boggles my mind that AC hasn't jumped at the opportunity yet. 900 vacancies and I'm sure the Oct bid will be even more. Perhaps that's why it was delayed? If they're talking with ACPA right now why show a massive bid with even more vacancies while you're probably trying to get more concessions. Not that that we have anything left to give away at this point.

The bid this time of year at AC is planning for next summer. It is based on whatever marketing has planned.

My bet is the bid isn't out because what marketing put forward can't be crewed.

[200Above]

The same can be said for ANY airline in the country. The first one to significantly raise their wages and become a desirable employer will seriously impact all completion!

It honestly boggles my mind that AC hasn't jumped at the opportunity yet. 900 vacancies and I'm sure the Oct bid will be even more. Perhaps that's why it was delayed? If they're talking with ACPA right now why show a massive bid with even more vacancies while you're probably trying to get more concessions. Not that that we have anything left to give away at this point.

The bid this time of year at AC is planning for next summer. It is based on whatever marketing has planned.

My bet is the bid isn't out because what marketing put forward can't be crewed.

Idono. With the increasing calls for a worldwide recession...I'm pessimistic about the requirements on the first Tuesday of October.

[canadian_aviator_4]

AC could fill all GS with jazz pilots. I don’t think they have a crewing issue in the short term, however doing so would affect their regional operations: No way they could possibly replace not only the pilots but experience level that is set on leaving Jazz ASAP. That is where their crewing problem is immediate…possibly a glimpse into the future where Air Canada may be in a few years: Poor work conditions making crewing extremely difficult.

[JoeyBarton]

It honestly boggles my mind that AC hasn't jumped at the opportunity yet. 900 vacancies and I'm sure the Oct bid will be even more. Perhaps that's why it was delayed? If they're talking with ACPA right now why show a massive bid with even more vacancies while you're probably trying to get more concessions. Not that that we have anything left to give away at this point.

The bid this time of year at AC is planning for next summer. It is based on whatever marketing has planned.

My bet is the bid isn't out because what marketing put forward can't be crewed.

Idono. With the increasing calls for a worldwide recession...I'm pessimistic about the requirements on the first Tuesday of October.

Exactly. Also limited possible growth in both yyz and yul due to airport limitations..

[Nick678]

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

[negative_g]

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

It is frustrating for people who went to Jazz for the carrot. But flows are inherently bad for WAWCON anyways, all it does is fix AC's problem of hiring and in exchange the airline they take from gets substandard wages. If Jazz had to actually compete on merit for pilots, wages would be higher. And then frankly less people would probably leave. If I made 150k at Jazz I likely wouldn't have left for AC. And AC doesn't want that, because then that puts upward pressure on AC's wages, especially their starting wages. At the end of the day there will always be a large amount of pilots taken from Jazz, flow or no flow. Always has been always will be.

[canadian_aviator_4]

The only reason why anyone would stay at jazz is ac. The union has dropped the ball, along with the senior pilot group, where they have sacrificed all junior pilots wage and work conditions for their own well being. It’s hard to trust in the union, when it’s in their best interest to push for items further worsening conditions for anyone junior.

Furthermore, it’s a company like most other airlines, that try to ensure members are unaware of items in the contract to use it against the pilot group as they see fit.

Morale is extremely low, and it will only keep dropping. I honestly am counting the hours to leave…..if jazz didn’t have the AC carrot I would have been gone quite a while ago.

Think before considering jazz. So many better options out there.

However, I challenge them to prove me wrong. It would be in everyone’s best favour.

[kiaszceski]

However, I challenge them to prove me wrong. It would be in everyone’s best favour.

I challenge you

[flyingcanuck]

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

What was short sighted was signing a 17 year deal because it brings "stability".

[cdnavater]

The only reason why anyone would stay at jazz is ac. The union has dropped the ball, along with the senior pilot group, where they have sacrificed all junior pilots wage and work conditions for their own well being. It’s hard to trust in the union, when it’s in their best interest to push for items further worsening conditions for anyone junior.

Furthermore, it’s a company like most other airlines, that try to ensure members are unaware of items in the contract to use it against the pilot group as they see fit.

Morale is extremely low, and it will only keep dropping. I honestly am counting the hours to leave…..if jazz didn’t have the AC carrot I would have been gone quite a while ago.

Think before considering jazz. So many better options out there.

However, I challenge them to prove me wrong. It would be in everyone’s best favour.

I believe you are a disgruntled Jazz pilot, I’m sorry you feel this way, that the senior pilots sold you out!
You were not here, when the selling occurred and had a choice, that being said see below about other pilots selling their souls to the detriment of the senior Jazz pilots. If you and others stopped applying this would’ve been fixed ages ago.
There is a very long history that you seem ignorant to, or just plain don’t give a flying @#$! about and likely couldn’t care less if we all had to start over somewhere else because AC starved Jazz to non existence, as long as you didn’t have to suffer for it. If it’s the latter, @#$! you and your fucken self entitlement. Go work somewhere else where you are a valued employee, I challenge you to find that.

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

Depends, does it seem shorted to sign a long term deal allowing Jazz to capture back all the flying that was lost to SR and GGN, who undercut us to do that work.
Now, we are the only Regional for AC and in a position to perhaps capitalize on the lack of qualified Captains, if only people would stop applying we could begin to show that there is a shortage.
Getting rid of the flow would be the first positive steps towards that, without the flow pilots will go elsewhere and we will indeed be in a shortage situation.

[canadian_aviator_4]

The only reason why anyone would stay at jazz is ac. The union has dropped the ball, along with the senior pilot group, where they have sacrificed all junior pilots wage and work conditions for their own well being. It’s hard to trust in the union, when it’s in their best interest to push for items further worsening conditions for anyone junior.

Furthermore, it’s a company like most other airlines, that try to ensure members are unaware of items in the contract to use it against the pilot group as they see fit.

Morale is extremely low, and it will only keep dropping. I honestly am counting the hours to leave…..if jazz didn’t have the AC carrot I would have been gone quite a while ago.

Think before considering jazz. So many better options out there.

However, I challenge them to prove me wrong. It would be in everyone’s best favour.

I believe you are a disgruntled Jazz pilot, I’m sorry you feel this way, that the senior pilots sold you out!
You were not here, when the selling occurred and had a choice, that being said see below about other pilots selling their souls to the detriment of the senior Jazz pilots. If you and others stopped applying this would’ve been fixed ages ago.
There is a very long history that you seem ignorant to, or just plain don’t give a flying @#$! about and likely couldn’t care less if we all had to start over somewhere else because AC starved Jazz to non existence, as long as you didn’t have to suffer for it. If it’s the latter, @#$! you and your fucken self entitlement. Go work somewhere else where you are a valued employee, I challenge you to find that.

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

Depends, does it seem shorted to sign a long term deal allowing Jazz to capture back all the flying that was lost to SR and GGN, who undercut us to do that work.
Now, we are the only Regional for AC and in a position to perhaps capitalize on the lack of qualified Captains, if only people would stop applying we could begin to show that there is a shortage.
Getting rid of the flow would be the first positive steps towards that, without the flow pilots will go elsewhere and we will indeed be in a shortage situation.

You sound like a senior pilot that has a mentality of ‘I suffered so should you’. This attitude you have is the problem with aviation in the first place in Canada. What should happen is an effort to improve things for all, such as in the case for both those that want a career at Jazz- improved pay while for those wanting to go to AC- improved flow: Understanding and working to address everyone’s issues, instead of only some, will make a more positive industry and allow people of different goals to work together, instead of being divided. Resulting in a more productive negotiating group.

[swervin]

Air Canada Express Pilot portal closed for now.

[cdnavater]

The only reason why anyone would stay at jazz is ac. The union has dropped the ball, along with the senior pilot group, where they have sacrificed all junior pilots wage and work conditions for their own well being. It’s hard to trust in the union, when it’s in their best interest to push for items further worsening conditions for anyone junior.

Furthermore, it’s a company like most other airlines, that try to ensure members are unaware of items in the contract to use it against the pilot group as they see fit.

Morale is extremely low, and it will only keep dropping. I honestly am counting the hours to leave…..if jazz didn’t have the AC carrot I would have been gone quite a while ago.

Think before considering jazz. So many better options out there.

However, I challenge them to prove me wrong. It would be in everyone’s best favour.

I believe you are a disgruntled Jazz pilot, I’m sorry you feel this way, that the senior pilots sold you out!
You were not here, when the selling occurred and had a choice, that being said see below about other pilots selling their souls to the detriment of the senior Jazz pilots. If you and others stopped applying this would’ve been fixed ages ago.
There is a very long history that you seem ignorant to, or just plain don’t give a flying @#$! about and likely couldn’t care less if we all had to start over somewhere else because AC starved Jazz to non existence, as long as you didn’t have to suffer for it. If it’s the latter, @#$! you and your fucken self entitlement. Go work somewhere else where you are a valued employee, I challenge you to find that.

Judging by the tone of the survey the MEC is looking at getting rid of flow and seeing what pilots want instead. Doesn’t this seem short sighted? Jazz will never come close to AC wages by design and therefore further reduce the amount of applicants to Jazz. Screws over everyone who came to Jazz for flow as well.

Depends, does it seem shorted to sign a long term deal allowing Jazz to capture back all the flying that was lost to SR and GGN, who undercut us to do that work.
Now, we are the only Regional for AC and in a position to perhaps capitalize on the lack of qualified Captains, if only people would stop applying we could begin to show that there is a shortage.
Getting rid of the flow would be the first positive steps towards that, without the flow pilots will go elsewhere and we will indeed be in a shortage situation.

You sound like a senior pilot that has a mentality of ‘I suffered so should you’. This attitude you have is the problem with aviation in the first place in Canada. What should happen is an effort to improve things for all, such as in the case for both those that want a career at Jazz- improved pay while for those wanting to go to AC- improved flow: Understanding and working to address everyone’s issues, instead of only some, will make a more positive industry and allow people of different goals to work together, instead of being divided. Resulting in a more productive negotiating group.

Senior, yes but no I don’t believe others should suffer. For those on property now, I would not support the loss of flow for anything other than at least a 50% raise at the bottom and lowering to 20% at the top, at a minimum. My survey said as much and I also said if this is not possible than status quo until pilots stop applying.
I did not make you suffer, you chose your path like I chose my path, we did not negotiate a lower pay scale for anyone who was not already here, since then the only improvements went to those who came after, ideally no one would have and we wouldn’t be having this exchange.
If you want to improve the industry, don’t accept the shit pay in exchange for a chance at AC, go to somewhere else and send a message that it’s not enough.
I did it when I was young enough to start over, I also voted to strike in 2010, and here we are being blamed for your life choices, you act like you had no choice but to accept it, nobody forced you.
Let me be clear, YOUR choice to come to Jazz has had a negative effect on the industry, not mine to protect what I had

[negative_g]

The only reason that 17 year deal passed was the 60% flow. To take it away now must cost them an arm an a leg and nothing less.

[rudder]

Air Canada Express Pilot portal closed for now.

AC and ACPA have an LOA that will apparently touch on flow. Portal closed while vote underway.

Perhaps JAZ MEC has more info?

[a2btrail]

Air Canada Express Pilot portal closed for now.

A Memo a short while ago was sent out by our VP of Flight Operations:

"Jazz Aviation has been informed that Air Canada and Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) have reached agreement on an LOA that will now go to ratification. It is Jazz’s understanding that this agreement upholds Air Canada’s commitment to offer 60% of its pilot job offers to pilots on the Jazz System Seniority List.

Please note that Air Canada has closed the Air Canada Express Pilot Career Portal in the interim. I appreciate your continued professionalism while the ratification process takes place."

Stay Safe,

SL

[swervin]

I'm curious if the Tier II comment on page 3 of the MOA is referring to Jazz or someone else..

[RockSalty]

I'm curious if the Tier II comment on page 3 of the MOA is referring to Jazz or someone else..

If it’s talking about codeshare it’s probably going to be someone else

[rudder]

ACPA Tentative Agreement

Yesterday the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) announced that they reached a tentative agreement (TA) with Air Canada. It will be put to Air Canada Pilots for ratification closing October 11. The ACPA communication to their members is attached for your information.

A provision of the TA allows for Air Canada to “hire” Jazz Pilots but return them to Jazz on LOA. The JAZ MEC was not approached to facilitate this, and our Collective Agreement does not provide for members to simultaneously transition to Air Canada yet remain at Jazz with rights and privileges as if they never left.

Absent an agreement between all stakeholders on how this provision can be implemented, ratification of their agreement will be a circumvention of established bargaining rights between us (ALPA) and our employer (Jazz).

We will communicate as soon as new information becomes available.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC

[negative_g]

I like it. Leave it to a real union to not pull punches. I fully support the JAZZ MEC on this. This deal is crashing and burning pretty rapidly among AC pilots.

[Loon-A-Tic]

ACPA Tentative Agreement

Yesterday the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) announced that they reached a tentative agreement (TA) with Air Canada. It will be put to Air Canada Pilots for ratification closing October 11. The ACPA communication to their members is attached for your information.

A provision of the TA allows for Air Canada to “hire” Jazz Pilots but return them to Jazz on LOA. The JAZ MEC was not approached to facilitate this, and our Collective Agreement does not provide for members to simultaneously transition to Air Canada yet remain at Jazz with rights and privileges as if they never left.

Absent an agreement between all stakeholders on how this provision can be implemented, ratification of their agreement will be a circumvention of established bargaining rights between us (ALPA) and our employer (Jazz).

We will communicate as soon as new information becomes available.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC

So exactly how does a completely separate Union, ACPA and two management groups have the right to go around the Jazz pilots ALPA MEC with this "concession" and violate their collective agreement with Jazz

[rudder]

So exactly how does a completely separate Union, ACPA and two management groups have the right to go around the Jazz pilots ALPA MEC with this "concession" and violate their collective agreement with Jazz

Welcome to the last 25 years of labour relations at Jazz and AC.

Until the 4 parties start to work on multilateral solutions, this type of dysfunction will continue to be the norm.

[PostmasterGeneral]

So exactly how does a completely separate Union, ACPA and two management groups have the right to go around the Jazz pilots ALPA MEC with this "concession" and violate their collective agreement with Jazz

They don’t care.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Any "former" Jazz pilot who's "idling" on an AC AOL at Jazz should be scheduled at the bottom of the seniority list. They are now an AC pilot, with an AC seniority. They do not hold a Jazz seniority number any longer for scheduling purposes or equipment.

As the saying goes; you can't have your cake and eat it.

[flyingcanuck]

Any "former" Jazz pilot who's "idling" on an AC AOL at Jazz should be scheduled at the bottom of the seniority list. They are now an AC pilot, with an AC seniority. They do not hold a Jazz seniority number any longer for scheduling purposes or equipment.

As the saying goes; you can't have your cake and eat it.

If I were in that position I wouldn't want to stay at Jazz then