Myths about firearms

[Rockie]

Buddy, you better take a stroll out to places like Slave Lake, Alberta and into the Okanagan Valey of BC and you'll find out all about natives with no power and living in squalor. The Natives there haven't relied on the "white eyes" for anything and they got more money than God........and they ain't sitting on top of oil or gas either.

Spent more time than you know in both thank you. I'm talking about Natives as a politically influencial group in this country. No one carries a bigger stick than them with all levels of government. I'm not commenting on whether that is right or wrong, just stating a fact.

[NWONT]

The only times I have seen polititions talk to natives is just before an election. Just like the rest of us in the north. Once the polls close they head back to southern Ont and all the promises turn into lies. We send our elected officials to carry our concerns to Ottawa and they are told to follow the party line or sit on the back bench. At least the natives have enough balls to put up a road block, get the media involved, and get noticed. The only thing politicians understand is confrontation and violence. That goes for every level of government. We could all take a lesson from the natives.

[hotspur666]

Buddy, you better take a stroll out to places like Slave Lake, Alberta and into the Okanagan Valey of BC and you'll find out all about natives with no power and living in squalor. The Natives there haven't relied on the "white eyes" for anything and they got more money than God........and they ain't sitting on top of oil or gas either.

Wealth is based on enterprising attitude and efforts and yes,
it's pretty comfortable in the reserve where I live...

Government subsidies are like oil wealth, it's more of a curse
if you lack the spirit, just look at Equator, Venezuela and Nigeria...the richest countries in the world and the poorest people...

[log sheet]

Hey everyone, very good discussion you've got going here. I can't say I totally disagree with the various opinions on the long gun registery. All were good points depending on your point of view! We as tax payers have suffered! On the other hand I guess the registery has given piece of mind to those who fear firearms.
Being a gun owner and a hunter I guess you know which way I'm going.
I have to have a Federal License to own a firearm, to purchase a firearm, to purchase ammunition. I have to have a provincial license to hunt in Ontario. It costs a lot of money to get outfitted for hunting. Not crazy about having to register my guns but I did. Bought a new shotgun last year and it got registered before I paid for it at the cash register thats the way it is now. If I want to hunt I have to follow the law so I will.
I believe this law will change eventually. Hunters don't give the anti gun people any more ammunition.
When people finally realize that it is not the gun that kills people or that carries out the armed robbery its the criminal behind the gun. The registery of guns will never change these crimes. As another point these criminals are probally not paying taxes!
Here in the bush hunting is my recreation in the bigger cities I have friends who like to play golf. Put a golf club in the hands of a criminal and it can become a leathal weapon.
Just my opinion

[SterlingSMG]

First of all, I'm not against the idea of a firearms registry, just how poorly it was implemented (perhaps I should say criminally because a billion dollars doesn't disappear...it's in someones bank account). Done properly no one should have a problem with registering a firearm since no one has a problem registering a motor vehicle.

This video is totally pointless and diverts attention away from what the real issue is, which is the proliferation of firearms. Not whether they are automatic or semi-automatic. As the man said, automatic weapons are already banned in the US and Canada. The problem down there is that you can buy any semi-automatic weapon after waiting a day from the local sports store or Walmart. There are more gun dealers in the States than there are gas stations (fact). And although guns aren't as easily sold in Canada, the people who wish to use them in criminal activity don't seem to have any problem getting them.

Well I will try firstly to give you a brief history lesson.
in 1689 the British parliament enshrined in the bill of rights the right to keep and bear Arms. this right is extended to all subjects and we in Canada have inherrited this said same right. No act since then has removed this right. and as part of the common law exsists today.
As for our French citizens as stated by prof. Lemieux "we Frenchmen have not had to ask permission to own a gun for 400 years and we are not going to start. Like it or not Guns are part of the fabric of Canadian life and always will be, like your car gun ownership is a right .but where the difference lay is that your licence is a priveldge.

as for semi autos, fullauto and pistols. well simply put -Why does a law abiding citizen need to justify his/her past times? Ah you might say but guns kill people ..well no they don't it is a criminal behind the trigger that kills people. The interest of people on this board is aviation right? did anybody question your motives? I mean after all you could fly your plane into a crowded shopping mall and kill people. ah but it is the pilot not the plane.
further how about cars? they kill people everyday but no one is moving to outlaw them. again a car requires a driver to make this happen no different than a gun.

Gun Registry only works if the bad guys register their guns. Which they would not do because then they would loose them. Just as a note there are
aprox 21 000 000 registered and unregistered firearms in normal everyday law abiding citizens hands according to the unregistered firearms association. so why are we not in the perverbial "war zone" or "Dodge City" Hollywood the news media and other forums have demonized guns
and gun ownership.


I submit to you it is a fear that fuels the belief that guns are evil. No inannimate object has ever gained the abillity to act on its own..It is "Evil intent" that turns a tool into a killing machine. which is true of anything be it cars, baseball bats, knives, hammers, or airplanes for that matter. How about men? would you have all men registered in a DNA bank to prevent rape?

I will leave self defence out and other philosophical arguments my post would go on for ever. but simpy say this Free gun ownership is the symbol of a healthy democracy. It has only been tyrants that have sought to see
the populous disarmed. In Nazis Germany guns were registered and the first ones disarmed were the Jews. So in closing consider this you cannot pick and choose which rights you want to stand up for. you must stand up and fight for the ones you disagree with most of all and fight the hardest for. For if you do not then who is to say your favoured rights are not next to go?

[SterlingSMG]

I would just like to pose a question. What is the big deal with registering your guns (if it was free). I think the comparison of registering cars is apt. Why is it ok for the government to know you have a car but they have no right to know you have a gun. That sounds a little paranoid to me. Please clarify.

I would think you of anyone would understand the danger. Have you learned nothing from history? Jews were the first ones disarmed in Hitlers Germany.

How did that work out?

[trey kule]

Sterling.

You are either a collector or an old fart like me. I spent literally thousands of hours with a sterling in my hand (we just called it an SMG).
Never liked the darn thing much....justification in this case for destroying a weapon (LOL) Your name brought back many memories.

[SterlingSMG]

Here is another thought.

Is it any business of a beaurocrat who I sleep with? is my financial affairs any of their business? I don't have to give this information to anyone for any other licence.

[SterlingSMG]

Sterling.

You are either a collector or an old fart like me. I spent literally thousands of hours with a sterling in my hand (we just called it an SMG).
Never liked the darn thing much....justification in this case for destroying a weapon (LOL) Your name brought back many memories.

indeed I must be an old fart like you...and yes spent a good deal of time with one. mostly range,,I still have the manual for the SMG. I added the sterling to lengthen tha handle mostly


their fathers were'nt called "the plumbers nightmare" for nothing

[SterlingSMG]

rockie
There is one thing you have said that I can agree with . We do have a PR problem. that is largely due to the fact that we are mostly ordinary citizens
just wanting to persue our hobby and sport. a proverbial david V a perverbial Goliath... you cannot read a paper anywhere, where a crime has been commited with a firearm where the news report isn't sensationalized
secondly the lead in the Gun control camp is Wendy Cukier a Ryerson prof who is an expert in communications. who is again using fear to motivate the public against gun owners.


the biggest problem with the legislation is thus It supposes intent. which is fundamentaly adverse to the notion of fundamental justice and places reverse onus upon a gun owner. go to the cfc website and take a look at the application they ask some invasive questions. and ask yourself if you would want a bureaucrat knowing these things. and ask yourself would you answere these questions if it were on the driver app or pilots app....


and finaly a question ,,,

I see on this website you have to fighter craft rolling. Would you like to fly a fighter?

[Rockie]

rockie
There is one thing you have said that I can agree with . We do have a PR problem. that is largely due to the fact that we are mostly ordinary citizens
just wanting to persue our hobby and sport. a proverbial david V a perverbial Goliath... you cannot read a paper anywhere, where a crime has been commited with a firearm where the news report isn't sensationalized
secondly the lead in the Gun control camp is Wendy Cukier a Ryerson prof who is an expert in communications. who is again using fear to motivate the public against gun owners.


the biggest problem with the legislation is thus It supposes intent. which is fundamentaly adverse to the notion of fundamental justice and places reverse onus upon a gun owner. go to the cfc website and take a look at the application they ask some invasive questions. and ask yourself if you would want a bureaucrat knowing these things. and ask yourself would you answere these questions if it were on the driver app or pilots app....


and finaly a question ,,,

I see on this website you have to fighter craft rolling. Would you like to fly a fighter?

First of all, unlike a few of the people here I have not lost my cool at all despite some rather pointed personal barbs. But I'm about to change that if I hear one more person liken Canada with Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq or any other ridiculous and offensive comparison like that. You guys want to be taken seriously then get a grip and stop being so dramatic.

Your rights as firearms owners in the BNA act have (and I can only take your word for it) not been revoked. OK. But that is a far cry from being enshrined in our constitution like it is in the United States. It does not trump the current will of society, who through the government will find a way to take away all but the most inoffensive firearms you have if they feel it is in their best interests. This is what you as firearms owners are dealing with. You said it yourself SterlingSMG: "I submit to you it is a fear that fuels the belief that guns are evil." You are absolutely right sir, and this is what I've been trying to get you people to realize. You are going to fail by arguing your rights, you have to fight the fear because this is a political battle being fought in the Public Relations arena.

In other words...I hate to say it...don't use logic. You can't fight the fear of flying by quoting statistics no matter how accurate they are. You can't fight Canadian society's fear and loathing of guns by saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people". You have to make society comfortable with you having your guns, and a really good start to that would be by being fully supportive of the gun registry because you have nothing to hide. Like the Conservative party has had to do, you need to put your more vocal, blunt, slightly less articulate and politically insensitive members on the back benches away from microphones if you're going to succeed. You have to sway public opinion so the public will take the pressure off the government to do something about your guns. There is a savvy, right way to do that and a very wrong way to do that. The choice is yours.


I didn't understand the first part of your question SterlingSMG but I am in fact ex-military and a former CF-18 pilot, so I'm not totally ignorant about weapons, or defending my country and freedom as some have suggested.

[LH]

Sterling ------I've heard that statement before and I'll ask the same of you as I have of the others.Where, in all of the Canadian Acts, Laws and Statutes is the "Right to bear Arms" written. It's not in the British North America Act and it's not in the Canadian Bill of Rights. It definitely wasn't included in the Statute Westminister that gave us all Canadian citizenship in 1947. Please don't tell us about something from Britain in the 1600's because unless it's written in Canadian Law, then it don't mean "diddley" over here.

If, and just IF, you can supply the Canadian Act or Statute that guarantees such Rights and the Sections and SubSections, I'll personally forward them on to someone with much more expertise in Constutional Law than either you or I..........a noted Canadian expert.......Mr. Brian Schultz of the University of Manitoba. IF they can be found then it makes absolutely no difference what any of the presiding governments say otherwise.........they ALSO will have to obey that law. Please don't make mention anymore about British Laws and Acts, be they true or not, because all we have left of that association is the Queen........and she RULES......she doesn't GOVERN.

[spooky]

Anyone just tuning in, the topic of this forum is:

Some people want to keep their guns, and others want to take them away.

A side issue, Liberanos want to piss our taxpayer dollars away. Some of us would like to use it for something besides buying a bunch of computers, hiring a lot of keypunch operators, and listing firearms data so that hackers can find what firearms they are shopping for.
They can get all they want in the US, but some prefer to shop Canadian, especially if the price is right, as in free for the taking.

Then you have the Lieberals (the spokesmen for the Liberanos) who will tell you that the intent of the registry is not to confiscate, hoping you will not remember this little chat when Paul Martin talks of banning and seizing various categories of firearms.

Now for those law-abiding citizens who did register their firearms, they will need a licence to keep them. When they apply they will have to include the consent of everyone they bunked with.

If all this goes well, you will still have to keep those firearms. Don't piss anyone off or they will report you as a hothead and the Liberano enforcement squad will disarm you on hearsay.

And don't ever delay renewing your licence, because that will also get the attention of the squad and you'll never see the guns again.

There's more, lots more, like locking up the firearms. But where is the key? If you sleep in the nude, it had better be up your ass because you must have the key secured upon your body to remain legal.

So much hassle that didn't exist until Rock decided to create some paranoia among the voters. The easiest place to plant that paranoia is urban Canada, and what a breeding ground that is.

But some of you will ask, this is Canada, there must be a way around this ridiculous charade.

Cheer up, there is.

You can apply for the Aboriginal Exemption, since Abos are peaceful, non-violent people, but you must be Indian and if you weren't born into this fortunate race, then there is still one way out.

Just ignore this paper hanging bureaucracy, and should they take your boom-boom away, there are lots more just south of the border. If you speak the proper lingo and have a few dollars to spare, the Natives can bring you whatever you need through the reserves that span the border.

This is how the Liberanos propose to keep us safe. The assumption is that there is a cop just a minute away, that you can call on your cellphone because there is a tower just a mile away right up to Nunavut, and your saviours are much faster than the quickest bear or cougar.

Now you're up to speed and can jump in any time and contribute.

[spooky]

For those who have heard enough of the crowd that compares gun registration to automobile registration, let's follow up on that comparison.

Let's say that guns and autos are comparable and so let's apply gun standards to car standards.

First off, all cars will be restricted to 6 cylinders or less, no modifications allowed.

In order to own an automobile, you first have to apply for a driver's licence.

To receive a driver's licence, you will need the approval of everyone that you have cohabited with, if any say "no way", you will not get your licence and will have to surrender all your vehicles which will be destroyed.

Natives will not need to register their vehicles and the law cannot deprive them of said vehicles if they need them to go to Walmart to purchase food.

Should you forget to renew your licence or your plates, your automobiles will be confiscated until you pass another competency test which will be held in 4 evening sessions at a location 80 miles from your residence and should you miss any session, you will be allowed to apply again in one year.

Should anyone complain about you driving erratically, your licence will be revoked and all vehicles seized and destroyed.

Upon your death, all vehicles that you own will be destroyed. They cannot be passed along to your kin.

Any vehicles with 8 cylinders or above 200 cubic inches are classified as restricted and will require special clearance from the RCMP. Clearance will not be granted unless you are a made member of the Liberanos.

Is that comparison enough?

[CD]

Sounds plausible... Besides, I've heard that Segway's are the future!

[spooky]

Are they any good on gravel and do you need your spouse's okay to own one?

[Rockie]

Rockie,

I've read your posts and they all seem to say the same thing.

"It's no big deal to register so just do it". You're right, it is no big deal, and I for one am quite happy to do it. However, it IS a problem if the gov't plans to take the guns away. They have indicated in writing that this is their cause.

This is the root of the problem, and you're sidestepping it. No one here cares about doing paperwork, we're PILOTS after all. We care about what that paperwork may do to us when the gov't decides to outlaw semi autos or handguns or whatever they want. You can pretty much see the motivation since the Libs set it up, and now they plan to use it.

I don't agree with the "put up and shut up" attitude. Do you really think that someone in Ottawa who doesn't know a thing about you will always, without a doubt, be acting in YOUR best interests?

If TC came to the door tomorrow asking you to hand over your license would you "put up and shut up"? I would hope you would put up a fight for what's rightfully yours.

That's critical thinking, and that's what pilots do!

Nothing personal intended Rocky, just throwin' another log on the fire!

A couple examples for you folks. This is what I call a good, coherent argument that properly spells out what your concerns are as gun owners. It also leaves open the possibility for compromise that the government and you can work with to ensure your real concerns are addressed. Show that you're happy to register your firearms, but that you want some framework in place that will ensure they won't be confiscated unless there is a real, not percieved, threat to society. Skipper is calm, articulate and I think any government would be pleased to negotiate with someone like him.

[Rockie]

Anyone just tuning in, the topic of this forum is:

Some people want to keep their guns, and others want to take them away.

A side issue, Liberanos want to piss our taxpayer dollars away. Some of us would like to use it for something besides buying a bunch of computers, hiring a lot of keypunch operators, and listing firearms data so that hackers can find what firearms they are shopping for.
They can get all they want in the US, but some prefer to shop Canadian, especially if the price is right, as in free for the taking.

Then you have the Lieberals (the spokesmen for the Liberanos) who will tell you that the intent of the registry is not to confiscate, hoping you will not remember this little chat when Paul Martin talks of banning and seizing various categories of firearms.

Now for those law-abiding citizens who did register their firearms, they will need a licence to keep them. When they apply they will have to include the consent of everyone they bunked with.

If all this goes well, you will still have to keep those firearms. Don't piss anyone off or they will report you as a hothead and the Liberano enforcement squad will disarm you on hearsay.

And don't ever delay renewing your licence, because that will also get the attention of the squad and you'll never see the guns again.

There's more, lots more, like locking up the firearms. But where is the key? If you sleep in the nude, it had better be up your ass because you must have the key secured upon your body to remain legal.

So much hassle that didn't exist until Rock decided to create some paranoia among the voters. The easiest place to plant that paranoia is urban Canada, and what a breeding ground that is.

But some of you will ask, this is Canada, there must be a way around this ridiculous charade.

Cheer up, there is.

You can apply for the Aboriginal Exemption, since Abos are peaceful, non-violent people, but you must be Indian and if you weren't born into this fortunate race, then there is still one way out.

Just ignore this paper hanging bureaucracy, and should they take your boom-boom away, there are lots more just south of the border. If you speak the proper lingo and have a few dollars to spare, the Natives can bring you whatever you need through the reserves that span the border.

This is how the Liberanos propose to keep us safe. The assumption is that there is a cop just a minute away, that you can call on your cellphone because there is a tower just a mile away right up to Nunavut, and your saviours are much faster than the quickest bear or cougar.

Now you're up to speed and can jump in any time and contribute.

This is not a good example.

[spooky]

And which item do you disagree with?

[Rockie]

And which item do you disagree with?

It's not that I disagree with you, it's that you haven't stated your position in a way that doesn't make you seem like the hothead you mentioned in your post. If I were Joe Public, and actually I am, I'm not interested in hearing rants and certainly won't be convinced by one. If I were a government official looking for input from the firearms community on proposed legislation I wouldn't consider speaking to you. I would want to speak to someone who can see both sides of the issue and take the same responsible approach to the matter that I had to.

So while ranting and complaining makes people feel better, and believe me I have my days too, it is not constructive and won't get you anywhere.

[spooky]

Bruce Montague has been stating his position politely and has been doing this for over 3 years and $300,000.
Ranting and raving doesn't cost anything.

[Rockie]

Bruce Montague has been stating his position politely and has been doing this for over 3 years and $300,000.
Ranting and raving doesn't cost anything.

You're absolutely right about that. And I don't deny it feels good sometimes too.

[trey kule]

LH wrote:

Please don't tell us about something from Britain in the 1600's because unless it's written in Canadian Law, then it don't mean "diddley" over here.

Actually, LH, it does mean "didley" over here when push comes to shove.

Perhaps you should learn a little bit about canadian legal history and our laws before making such a statement.

[spooky]

OK Trey, we've been through this before but the history escapes me.
Could you refresh our memories?

[LH]

trey kule --------then "educate me" sir. I was part of that legal system you mention. Your statement is very "timely" because I've returned to University over the last two winters and one of the subjects I'm taking at this moment is "Canadian Constitutional Law". Please share with me and the masses here how anything legislated in the Houses of Parliament in Britain makes it law in ANY part of Canadian jurisprudence in Canada, whether it has to do with firearms or garbage collection. One other thing by the way.........if you might also be privy to the part of Canadian Law that guarantees Canadians the RIGHT to bear arms, I wonder would you be so kind as to direct me to where that might be found?