F-35 looking more like white elephant

[Shadowfax]

Hey Modi13 - the intranet now includes AUDIO!

You should buy some speakers and actually LISTEN to what Rick said - and then GOOGLE Paul Martin. Do some simple math and you might just figure out WHEN this was recorded....or you could just keep on keepin on the bandwagon.

[fish4life]

lol ya clearly from 2003 when he said "and in 10 years when it's the year 2013"

[modi13]

Clearly none of you have a sense of humour.

Maybe he just wants the best tools for the men and women who go to sleep at night knowing there is a risk of a mortar shell landing in their bunk? Someone trolling on avcanada (yourself) , obviously does not have this worry. I think you are the liberal loving- sycophantic, brainwashed - anal retentive bottom feeder who looks to run his mouth at any chance possible. Go stick your head in the snow.

May I ask why you feel the need to attack me without knowing anything about me? I used to be in one of those bunks worried about a mortar shell landing in my bunk, and I still have several friends in that position. Bite me, dildo.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

With a mouth like that I find your claim highly unlikely. There was also nothing humorous about your post with regards to R.Mcer . He was funny - your response is degrading. I do not need to know anything further about you to come to the conclusion that you're an internet troll who maybe on occasion plays army games at C.F.B Borden and sleeps in a hootch once a month. Make sure you don't @#$! up your declaration! Wouldnt want you taking a blank round home as front line proof

[Beefitarian]

I remember before I went on the internet thinking, "Wow that's great we'll be able to communicate with everyone!" Now I know it's sort of like "everyone" has had half a bottle of rye 15 minutes before the debate started.

modi 13 was trying to make light of the idea that it's too expensive to properly equip our military. Maybe he just wants the best tools for the men and women who go to sleep at night knowing there is a risk of a mortar shell landing in their bunk?


Sorry to interupt, go get 'im!

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

I remember before I went on the internet thinking, "Wow that's great we'll be able to communicate with everyone!" Now I know it's sort of like "everyone" has had half a bottle of rye 15 minutes before the debate started.

modi 13 was trying to make light of the idea that it's too expensive to properly equip our military. Maybe he just wants the best tools for the men and women who go to sleep at night knowing there is a risk of a mortar shell landing in their bunk?


Sorry to interupt, go get 'im!

"""""""""""""""""Rick Mercer is definitely a Harper-loving, sycophantic, brainwashed Conservative sheep. """""""""""""""

That was his statement. For those of us browsing the forums - and witnessing both stances, how is any human able to decipher if any part of that was a joke? There was no hint of it being a joke. On the contrary I think his stance as proven otherwise.

I do not think it is too expensive to arm our military. I think people just need to grow a backbone and stop taking what they have for granted. Maybe we need another worldwide conflict to educate the ignorant? I have witnessed firsthand abuse and nonsense directed at our military, and quite honestly enough is enough. What do people recommend? Dissolve the CF? Who gives a shit about our country obviously, I mean….every other country in the world is just like Canada! We should honestly take to our classrooms and learn from the peace which has occupied nearly every country on earth! From this day forth mankind will know of nothing but aggression or war! Just dissolve the cf. We simply can’t ………..afford it. Jack Layton, the floor is yours.
So in layman terms, it comes down to justifying the spending? Where is it written that we must be under imminent threat, rather being bombarded by shouting ex-soviet communists with bloodshot demon eyes in order to justify a new jet purchase? Like I said in other threads, if Harper had purchased Eurofighters, Rafale’s, F-15s, Super Rhinos, etc. he would be getting gang banged by the same people for not moving forward with the F-35 as it ……..provides Canadians with jobs! There is no win win here. I hope they buy more of the god damn things and push many to the next box on their shit disturb list. I cannot in good conscience send any man or woman, to do a job which may cost them their lives, and give them shit all to perform that role. To me, that is incorrect.

[modi13]

No hint of a joke? Are you kidding? Not even the emoticon at the end of the sentence indicating irony? It looks much like this: . Besides, if you think anyone is serious when they call Rick Mercer a Conservative, you're clearly mentally deficient, and if you read back a few pages you'll see I'm all for the purchase of the F-35.
Normally I refrain from insults and attempt to be as polite as possible, but I don't let jackasses who know nothing about me question what I did in the military. I spent three years as a member of the Canadian Forces, in the regular force ie full time, not the reserves, and most of the people I trained with are still members, including several who are presently in Afghanistan. How long did you serve your country, numbnuts?

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

First and foremost, let me award you the Medal of Honor for your 3 years of service. Please let me award you the Victoria Cross for knowing members of the Canadian Forces who have /are serving in Afghanistan. You are unique. Please in turn honor me with a 21 gun salute (4 years here) and continuing. Now that we have that sorted…
Let’s try and explain this so you can comprehend it (I know this may be quite difficult for you as you love to add little rude remarks to get your ego off, but that’s fine I’ll play along)

You came back to defend yourself when a few others misinterpreted what you said. One ridiculous little icon with eyeballs doing figure 8s highlights nothing and is open for interpretation. Forgive us all for not knowing you. Please understand when I say “I really have no desire to”, very few people bring dildos into civilized conversation. There are many interesting, and beyond ridiculous things stated in these forums. You couldn’t clarify it obviously; you had to go into mental case mode, which of course proves your superiority. As for believing what is written on Avcanada (your accusation of being mentally deficient, assuming that I believe R.M. is a conservative (which contradicts your lecture about me not knowing you because now you are telling me who I am) Well, let’s just say you need to be more direct.

Bottom line – cut needless social spending! Purchase about 300 rhinos + JSFs, let the media get over it and were golden. It’s been a confrontational pleasure.

[North Shore]

Gentlemen, relax a little, please. Even 15 year-olds trolling from their parents' basements deserve civility....

[Big Pistons Forever]

F 35 debate is a symptom of the bigger issue. Military forces do two things, Defend the homeland from Military threats and support the national security objectives of the nations foreign policy. Canada does not have any meaningful military threats against the homeland so the main function of the Canadian Forces is to support the nations foreign policy. The problem is we do not have a rational, consistent and well articulated foreign policy. We should buy military equipment that best supports the National Security interests of Canada and Canadians. This is hard to do if you don't have well defined and well understood criteria for defining those interests. If we had the test then whether the F35 was the right aircraft could discussed intelligently. At the moment it seems we will spend in the region of 21 Billion dollars to buy the aircraft and then figure out the concept of operations on how we will use it after we get it, and despite our "partner" status in the F35 program we have no guarantees on the amount of significant industrial benefits that will flow to Canadian aerospace companies.

I find it very unfortunate as a Canadian and also as a member of the CF Reserve forces that there is so little interest in discussing the foundation issues of "why do we have a military" and "what do we want it to do ?" There is an election coming up so I think every time one of the politicians knocks at your door ask him/her the question :

"What are the National Security interests of Canada and what is your party doing to address them ?"

[ktcanuck]

F 35 debate is a symptom of the bigger issue. Military forces do two things, Defend the homeland from Military threats and support the national security objectives of the nations foreign policy. Canada does not have any meaningful military threats against the homeland so the main function of the Canadian Forces is to support the nations foreign policy. The problem is we do not have a rational, consistent and well articulated foreign policy. We should buy military equipment that best supports the National Security interests of Canada and Canadians. This is hard to do if you don't have well defined and well understood criteria for defining those interests. If we had the test then whether the F35 was the right aircraft could discussed intelligently. At the moment it seems we will spend in the region of 21 Billion dollars to buy the aircraft and then figure out the concept of operations on how we will use it after we get it, and despite our "partner" status in the F35 program we have no guarantees on the amount of significant industrial benefits that will flow to Canadian aerospace companies.

I find it very unfortunate as a Canadian and also as a member of the CF Reserve forces that there is so little interest in discussing the foundation issues of "why do we have a military" and "what do we want it to do ?" There is an election coming up so I think every time one of the politicians knocks at your door ask him/her the question :

"What are the National Security interests of Canada and what is your party doing to address them ?"

Amen.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

awesome post Very informative . A view point I have never really looked from

[Expat]

Talk about starving you people, in order to afford useless weapons:

Egypt has the largest air force in the Arab world, with over 550 airplanes, more than half of which are of Western origin. Unlike the U.S. military where all services fly aircraft, in Egypt, only the EAF flies aircraft. Not only does the EAF operate U.S. aircraft, but also French, Czechoslovak, Russian, Chinese, and Egyptian aircraft. Some items of U.S. equipment, SH-3 and CH-47, were manufactured underlicense in England and Italy. The U.S. supports only a portion of the total EAF inventory. Managing the logistics support for any one service is a difficult task, combining three U.S. Services as well as seven other countries under both Foreign Military Sales (FMS) and Commercial Contracts.

As of 1989, the Egyptian air force had more than 500 combat aircraft and 30,000 personnel, of which 10,000 were conscripts. Its front-rank fighters consisted of sixty-seven multimission F-16 A/Cs and thirty-three F-4Es from the United States, as well as sixteen Mirage 2000s from France. A large inventory of older MiG aircraft (some of which were Chinese versions assembled in Egypt) backed up the more modern fighters. The air force had fitted many of the MiGs with advanced Western electronics, including radars, jamming equipment, and Sidewinder and Matra air-to-air missiles. The Air Defense Force exercised operational control of about 135 MiG interceptors, although their aircraft and personnel remained part of the air force. Egypt also planned to exchange crude oil for fifty Pucara light ground-attack fighters from Argentina. The air force operated seventy-two combat helicopters and a number of electronic-monitoring, maritime-patrol, reconnaissance, and earlywarning aircraft. Some of these aircraft were capable of detecting low-flying targets at great distances.

What was the need for such stuff, after they made peace with Israel???

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Talk about starving you people, in order to afford useless weapons:

Egypt has the largest air force in the Arab world, with over 550 airplanes, more than half of which are of Western origin. Unlike the U.S. military where all services fly aircraft, in Egypt, only the EAF flies aircraft. Not only does the EAF operate U.S. aircraft, but also French, Czechoslovak, Russian, Chinese, and Egyptian aircraft. Some items of U.S. equipment, SH-3 and CH-47, were manufactured underlicense in England and Italy. The U.S. supports only a portion of the total EAF inventory. Managing the logistics support for any one service is a difficult task, combining three U.S. Services as well as seven other countries under both Foreign Military Sales (FMS) and Commercial Contracts.

As of 1989, the Egyptian air force had more than 500 combat aircraft and 30,000 personnel, of which 10,000 were conscripts. Its front-rank fighters consisted of sixty-seven multimission F-16 A/Cs and thirty-three F-4Es from the United States, as well as sixteen Mirage 2000s from France. A large inventory of older MiG aircraft (some of which were Chinese versions assembled in Egypt) backed up the more modern fighters. The air force had fitted many of the MiGs with advanced Western electronics, including radars, jamming equipment, and Sidewinder and Matra air-to-air missiles. The Air Defense Force exercised operational control of about 135 MiG interceptors, although their aircraft and personnel remained part of the air force. Egypt also planned to exchange crude oil for fifty Pucara light ground-attack fighters from Argentina. The air force operated seventy-two combat helicopters and a number of electronic-monitoring, maritime-patrol, reconnaissance, and earlywarning aircraft. Some of these aircraft were capable of detecting low-flying targets at great distances.

What was the need for such stuff, after they made peace with Israel???

Yet Canadians think they have it bad with the purchase of 65 new jets ( replacing 80+ which are 30 years old. )

[cdnpilot77]

I don't think it is a question of whether we need new jets or not...its a question of why all the secrecy and lack of competitive bids or following a tendering process like every other government contract.

[AuxBatOn]

We need to look at our future threats as well. Not only our current threats. That's if you want to take a proper decision.

I don't think it is a question of whether we need new jets or not...its a question of why all the secrecy and lack of competitive bids or following a tendering process like every other government contract.

Some of our requirements are secret. No way around. Not everybody can know everything. Loose lips sink ships they said? These secret requirements drove the need for a 5th Generation multi-role fighter. The only one on the market right now is the F-35. No need to hold a competition since there is no competition. It's as simple as that. Forget the conspiracy theories about the government trying to screw its people by buying 65 jets for whatever reason. There is a legitimate requirement for a 5th Generation fighter.

[trampbike]

The "secret requirements" might look a bit bogus to many people. They will see it as a way for the government and military to justify everything (it's impossible to argue since the answer will always be "it's classified, trust us, we need this and that").

Now, assuming it really is in Canada's best interest to keep the requirements secret, how should the government and military "sell" the F-35 to the population?
I don't think they are doing a very good job so far by only talking about industrial benefits (sure seems to work fine in Québec though). Every other reasons they give are "begging the question" arguments. "We need the F-35 to protect Canada's territory" they say. This is one of the reasons why we need fighters, it does not explain why the F35 is the best choice.
I am all for the F35 purchase, yet pretty much every government arguments for it did not convince me.

What do you think AuxBatOn? What would be a good way to promote the F35 without the need to declassify the requirements?

[Hedley]

There is a legitimate requirement for a 5th Generation fighter

ok, get F-22's then. Everyone talks non-stop about our tight, seamless military integration with the USA, so why not get a good 5th gen fighter instead of an also-ran?

I figure when cost is no object - we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars per unit, you might as well get the best.

Oh, the USA won't sell us F-22's? Gosh, I guess we weren't really in as tight with them, as everyone would like us to believe. So, time to look around at alternatives.

[ICEDUDE]

ok, get F-22's then. Everyone talks non-stop about our tight, seamless military integration with the USA, so why not get a good 5th gen fighter instead of an also-ran?

Considering the F-35 will be used in USAF, USMC and USN... that would make our interoperability more seamless than if we could get our hands on the F-22.

Plus 65 rather than 20.

[Hedley]

that would make our interoperability more seamless than if we could get our hands on the F-22

Ok, I buy your rhetoric. By the same reasoning, the USAF should get rid of it's F-22's - so give them to us

[ICEDUDE]

Ok, I buy your rhetoric. By the same reasoning, the USAF should get rid of it's F-22's - so give them to us

I'm fine with that too... and if they just "give" them too us people would stop bitchin'!

[Beefitarian]

I'm fine with that too... and if they just "give" them too us people would stop bitchin'!

Never, there's allways something wrong. "I wanted them to be a lighter grey."

[AuxBatOn]

ok, get F-22's then.

It doesn't respond to our needs. We need a self-escort fighter capable of Air-to-Air. While the F-22 is excellent at A-A, it has very, very limited A/G capabilities. In a lot of aspects, the F-35 is going to be superior to the F-35.

Everyone talks non-stop about our tight, seamless military integration with the USA, so why not get a good 5th gen fighter instead of an also-ran?

We are tight with them. Thrust me. But it's in their best interest to keep some secrets. Just like we do with them. They don't know everything about us.

So, time to look around at alternatives.

There are no alternatives.

[kevind]

I'm fine with that too... and if they just "give" them too us people would stop bitchin'!

Never, there's allways something wrong. "I wanted them to be a lighter grey."

the canopy is not painted on the bottom to confused the bad guys

[oldncold]

well consider this by 2050 the planets population is expected to reach 9or 10 billion ,and nothing starts wars than a population who has no food or ariable land . so canada has both food and land combined with 20% worlds fresh water / oil reserves/ uranium/ . etc etc. someone will want what we got and may not be so nice in paying for it. the way to defend this to pay down national debt so your foreign poilcy is not tied to you enemies wallets and give the people on the pointy the best tools to bloody some bodys nose for being so silly to even try. Oh by the way lest we forget, you should read the 1812 speech by I believe thomas jefferson that stated canada is destined to be ours (meaning the usa) we should just go get it sooner rather than later.

If you tune into the rants on fox every once in a while, that sentiment has not changed much.in 200 yrs ergo buy the best train hard . actually i would prefer we bought 250 of them f35's . nothing says stay out of my back yard more than having well trained dogs with sharp teeth in multiple numbers . grufff....