College of Pilots

[confuzed]

Wouldn't the discipline be removal from the college? You're not in it now, so what are you so afraid of?

Well, depending how engrained the college were to become in the industry it could be a VERY big deal. If the college were to gain the ability of revoking the use of one's license, then it affects the livelihood of trying to work. That's my point though beef, is until all that is laid on the table then I would not be on board. Who is this review board to say what I did was or was not correct? There is just too much armchair quarterbacking going on now as it is, would this now exacerbate it? If there are other venues that are still in place and there is a differing opinion, who has the final say? If the college thinks I need disciplinary action but another regulating body is also there that disagrees what then?

As a couple of other people have mentioned, there are just too many what ifs and not enough concrete information really. Someone mentioned cost....by who, the members? If there is a cost by the members, then does this not wade into the union territory?

[Beefitarian]

Well, depending how engrained the college were to become in the industry it could be a VERY big deal.

Only if it becomes something very valuable to the employers. That will take decades.

[Prairie Chicken]

All of that would be fine, but one of the few things that have been clearly stated is that the college intends to enforce an unknown code of conduct and have the power of oversight in the entire industry. So to simply say, if you don’t like it don’t join, is not a valid response to an opposing point of view, since at some point that minority intends to have authority over those that didn’t choose to participate initially.

This is something I too would like clarification on. Beefitarian seems to have the same question.

I really don't see TC delegating any sort of disciplinary action to another entity, and I would not want to see that. I can see the College having the authority to review the actions of their members with an ultimate threat of expulsion from the College. I can think of some other scenarios which might involve input from the College to TC for action by TC. I'd like to hear what your group envisions though Tom.

PS, Doc, the only thing wrong with ladies' underwear is how much the good stuff costs!

[slam525i]

1. Without powers to affect your CPL, the "College" has no teeth, and therefore irrelevant.

2. If in some remarkably unlikely future that the "College" does obtain the right to affect licensing, I'm going to dig up my old PTR and train for a CPL, just so I can sue the "College".

(I have no interest in a CPL, but I deeply sympathize with the economic hardship and work environment difficulties of the many who are in the industry. It is a simple economics problem stemming from an over-supply because we all love flying. No, I don't have a solution, but whatever your solution is, it should not affect my rights.)

[Cat Driver]

2. If in some remarkably unlikely future that the "College" does obtain the right to affect licensing, I'm going to dig up my old PTR and train for a CPL, just so I can sue the "College".

Why sit around and wait for a college of pilots to sue a college Slam 525i, become a doctor and sue the college of physicians and surgeons when they go after you for malpractice or become a lawyer and sue the law society when they come after you for malpractice.

[Beefitarian]

The negativity keeps rocking. Maybe they don't want "teeth".

What if the "College" does affect CPLs, as in someone with a CPL and College membership is considered valuable because the membership proves they're interested in being the best CPL they can be and it shows?

What if once the more desireable employers hire a couple of them they like them so much they start hiring the other ones ahead of the rest of the CPL herd who can then continue to come on here and complain. "Don't even bother sending those guys a resume. They're one of the best places to work but only hire College members."

Maybe they are not interested in the "Power to take away licenses." maybe they want employers to know their members are the best pilots available. Human resource manager phoning after seeing a resume, "I notice you have the right amount of hours and you're a member of the College. When can you start?"

Don't worry anyone who doesn't want to work hard enough to gain membership can still go get a job at the places that just want a guy willing to take a "full load" for less wages because those places won't be interested in working with the College to improve things for both sides. "Sure those college of pilot guys are the best but we're not paying wages like that."

[Cat Driver]

I'm happy to see you have it figured out beef.

[Beefitarian]

Eventually if I kept posting my nonsense, just by luck I had to get something right.

[confuzed]

That's where it becomes a pipe dream beef...as much as I hate to say it. Companies will never shell out the money to hire "college" members knowing full well that there always will be someone who will do it cheaper. Until you change the mindset of EVERY fresh pilot looking to gain experience, the idea will never work....someone will always be willing to work for less, and the college will be unable to stop them.

The only way around this from what I see is to make EVERY pilot flying commercially join the college, but that will never happen. I'd love to see the industry change for the better, but this race to the bottom that started years ago is continuing with no real end in sight......that is until the demand surpasses the supply. When any joe blow with the $$ can go out and get a pilot license to live the dream, the supply will always outnumber the demand.

[Doc]

Pilots are dying because companies keep sending them out when they should stay home. Pilots are still pushing weather due in a large part to company culture. Passengers are dying on northern runways after crews shoot non-existant approaches. These are examples of poor company attitude and culture in the extreme.
These are all "working conditions".....a subject the "college" refuses to address. It's a Union matter.
Lets work together to SAVE LIVES here kids! Screw warm and fuzzy! Some really important changes NEED to be made. And, it won't be through a "college".
Lets call a Spade, a Spade here. Only Transport Canada has the teeth to make changes in cases like this. A "college" is a toothless pipe dream.
Lets all SMARTEN UP!!

I'm sitting at home, enjoying a glass of Merlot, counting my blessings. I don't work for Gong Show of a company that pushes pilots into the kind of crap that happened today. I'm toasting the lives of people that should not have died. I have a burning desire to jump into my GMC, drive to Winnipeg and kick the living crap out of whoever is in charge over there. That would be conduct unbecoming of a "professional" member of the "college", but frankly, we have far bigger fish to fry. We really need to get these companies out of the business. Passengers have every right to expect that we will deliver them safely to their destinations. Failing that, bring them home safely. I can't see a "college" making a difference here. What we really need is to be safe. Not warm and fuzzy....safe.

[confuzed]

^ + 1. Couldn't have said it better myself Doc.

[Doc]

Forget the "college" of Pilots......Form a committee to black ball some of these maggot companies (Keystone etc.) and I'm on board! I'm actually pretty serious here. There seem to be a never ending supply of companies who flaunt human life in the name of profit. One only needs to look back over the last several years to see this is an up and coming trend. We could hit them at the grass roots level. Advise student pilots and CPL students that if they work for these companies, not only are they taking their lives in their hands but also risking not being hired by other companies. If you have certain companies on your resume, we'll toss it right into the big round can.
Pull your heads out of you asses. We don't need to sanction and discipline pilots. We need to shut down some of the operators out there.

[Beefitarian]

You're right Doc, it is "a union matter." The College is an attempt an uniting pilots that want those things adressed but live in a time when "Union" is a bad word because everyone thinks it's a place for lazy people to get job security. You have to get together somehow to blackball those companies.

Don't worry about the owners of them companies. There's allways someone that "has a mortgage, can't get that first break, needs the money" or what ever other excuse out there for working for them when they change their name and put out the hiring ad.

[Cat Driver]

Until the courts start putting the company managers and owners in jail when they can be found culpable in these accidents nothing will change except the dates that these accidents keep happening.

[Beefitarian]

And that won't happen because all the laws are set up to place the blame square on the PIC's shoulders. Right?

[flyinthebug]

Until the courts start putting the company managers and owners in jail when they can be found culpable in these accidents nothing will change except the dates that these accidents keep happening.

Instead they throw the pilot in jail...who is a victim of his company culture.
They give the owner his AOC back, and he kills 4 more people a couple yrs later.
Pretty scary id say.

Fly safe all.

[cncpc]

Forget the "college" of Pilots......Form a committee to black ball some of these maggot companies (Keystone etc.) and I'm on board! I'm actually pretty serious here. There seem to be a never ending supply of companies who flaunt human life in the name of profit. One only needs to look back over the last several years to see this is an up and coming trend. We could hit them at the grass roots level. Advise student pilots and CPL students that if they work for these companies, not only are they taking their lives in their hands but also risking not being hired by other companies. If you have certain companies on your resume, we'll toss it right into the big round can.
Pull your heads out of you asses. We don't need to sanction and discipline pilots. We need to shut down some of the operators out there.

Exactly.

It is possible to do. It doesn't need a College to do it, but it can be done through market forces and communications from an authorative source to the public about dangerous operators.

If a pilot was fired for refusing to do a trip in ice and with a dodgy prop deice, then that is of interest to at least one national media organization that I have connections into. If anyone knows where that pilot can be contacted, please contact me by PM.

[Cat Driver]

When something this senseless happens it is nice to see everyone on the sme page trying to do something to stop it.

We have something in place to stop these operations, it is called the law.

T.C. Has no intrest in upholding it so why don't we get together in our regions and sit down and find. Way to mke the industry safer.......like bring complaints directly to the RCMP who can enforce federal law.

[Prairie Chicken]

If a pilot was fired for refusing to do a trip in ice and with a dodgy prop deice, then that is of interest to at least one national media organization that I have connections into.

Nice idea cncp, but you'd have to get the pilot to lay his name on the (public) line, then the media would likely need further named substantiation, then you'd end up with a small news piece on page 8 which the public would ignor.

Back to the College topic. I think the Keystone accident is precisely why Tom et al believe a College is necessary. I support all efforts to put an end to this sort of bloodshed.

Edited, twice, to stay on topic & refrain from straying to the Keystone topic.

[trey kule]

Well, Mr. Chicken, as you have wondered off the topic path, I will use that as justification to do the same

From a previous post

who is a victim of his company culture

Pilot's are not victims. They are part of the gang. I think in the world of CRM and PDM and alphabet soup, that is referred to as resignation..It is just an excuse. Pilots need to get that through their heads.

Back to topic....198 posts..Not very many supporting the idea. If the target demographic is roughly 30% of licensed pilots, and this thread is at all representative, I think you have a tough task to get that 30% to cough up any money, and join

I have to be honest, I really dont see what the reason d'etre of the college is, other than to be an additional sales organization for the insurance and coffee cup/hat people.. The impression I have is that you want to start an organization and then look for a cause.


Now I have to run and get busy. I understand there is an operator in Manitoba that may be soon looking for a new Ops manager and I want to get the old resume polished up and submitted before the rest...

[slam525i]

I'm interested in how many of you have written to TC directly to address your concerns. All the safety related issues that have been listed here are within the realm of TC's jurisdiction.

I'm also curious as to how many of you have "blown the whistle", found yourself fired, filed a complaint with the Ministry of Labour, and did not get some sort of satisfactory resolution.

I know TC isn't perfect, but it's the right way to deal with these issues.

Cat, I wouldn't sue the "College of Pilots" because I violated their rules. I'd sue them if they could interfere with my ability to obtain a CPL. In a just world, the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons would be abolished as well; why do you think there's a shortage of Doctors in Canada? Have you any idea how many of my students have been aspiring "pre-meds"? All of these Colleges aim to limit number of people licensed to practice, thus creating an artificial shortage in supply. This protectionist approach disgusts me, whether it's in medicine or in aviation. I can't sue the RCPSC because they're part of Canada's legislation but a College of Pilots is not. I hope that with our modern sense of fairness and jurisprudence, a College of Pilots will be unable to obtain the same legal standing.

That said, I really like Beef's scenario, and ideally that would be how things work. However, with cut-throat cost-cutting and less-than-scrupulous operators, I don't see it happening.

[Doc]

Now I have to run and get busy. I understand there is an operator in Manitoba that may be soon looking for a new Ops manager and I want to get the old resume polished up and submitted before the rest...

Jesus mate, the Titanic is looking for a new Captain as well.....

[Doc]

I like a more direct approach--but that would be seriously illegal and Doc & I would likely get thrown in gaol (I'm assuming he'd like my vigilante ideas).
wasn't there a warrant exercised with a major seach & resulting OC suspension a year or two ago?

I'll bring the pitch forks, you bring the torches! Lets get 'em!

That warrant business was for a different operator just down the ramp. Don't quote me, but I think it was mostly paper work problems. Something about deferred snags not being in the logs?

[Cat Driver]

I'm interested in how many of you have written to TC directly to address your concerns. All the safety related issues that have been listed here are within the realm of TC's jurisdiction.

I have, results? Nothing.

I'm also curious as to how many of you have "blown the whistle", found yourself fired, filed a complaint with the Ministry of Labour, and did not get some sort of satisfactory resolution.

I have, results? Nothing.

I know TC isn't perfect, but it's the right way to deal with these issues.

It can not possibly be the right way to deal with these issues if there are no positive results from doing so.

My reward for trying to correct a wrong with TCCA was they blacklisted me in the industry and I had to leave Canada to earn a living in aviation.........best thing that ever happened in my career and I would rather work in Nigeria than Canada in aviation.

[slam525i]

My reward for trying to correct a wrong with TCCA was they blacklisted me in the industry and I had to leave Canada to earn a living in aviation.........best thing that ever happened in my career and I would rather work in Nigeria than Canada in aviation.

I'm really genuinely sorry and disappointed to hear that. I guess the next level up would have been to sue the employer directly for wrongful dismissal, although I understand that can be a financial sink-hole without guaranteed results. I still think the best way to deal with these problems would be to make it an issue that TC cannot ignore, possibly by raising public awareness.

Please understand, I really am in support of commercial pilots, especially those working for smaller operators without the protection of unions, even if I am not one of you. I just don't see how this "College" can work.