It is imminent.......be ready.

[daedalusx]

First year pay is always quite a bit lower even at the major American carriers.

I expect 95-105/hr first year flat pay then formula pay (125-130) 2nd year. NB will probably be WJ scale +15 to 20%

The big wins will be on reserve rules, lifestyle improvement, commuting policy, training on days on vs days off.

I’d sure be happy to be proven wrong but when you still have people picking up VO at this point …

[dontcallmeshirley]

Let's reset everyone's expectations.

LOL.

I think you meant that for management. Reset your expectations, ALPA is not ACPA.

Have you seen ALPA's deals recently?

The WJAMEC agreed to a contract that was "industry standard" so that they wouldn't scare AC pilots away because of a strike. The WENMEC agreed to a contract that was "industry standard" and send out a threatening email to pilots to push them to accept it.

Air Canada pilots will get a better contract, but based on my experiences, I highly doubt that you will get what you think you will get.

[cdnavater]

Let's reset everyone's expectations.

LOL.

I think you meant that for management. Reset your expectations, ALPA is not ACPA.

Have you seen ALPA's deals recently?

The WJAMEC agreed to a contract that was "industry standard" so that they wouldn't scare AC pilots away because of a strike. The WENMEC agreed to a contract that was "industry standard" and send out a threatening email to pilots to push them to accept it.

Air Canada pilots will get a better contract, but based on my experiences, I highly doubt that you will get what you think you will get.

You know that the WJAMEC and WENMEC are WJ and Encore Pilots who made their decisions based on the information they had, their decisions would be informed by many factors, ALPA but one of those, ALPA input is generally economic in nature, they would not dictate terms or tell them to accept anything.
The current environment at AC is mostly unity and pissed off junior pilots, I don’t see them caving and I reiterate ALPA is a resource they don’t dictate, if that were the case I would assume they would have told the Flair MEC to smarten the F up!

[jpilot77]

Let's reset everyone's expectations. This new contract will be better than the previous one, but it will not be ground breaking for Canada.

You're going to get a contract that you can read and understand without the help of a lawyer. Your starting rates are going to be flat rate and starting salary in the $75,000 to $85,000 per year range.

Air Canada is having little problem hiring and therefore have little incentive to beat the competition.

Little problem hiring? Well they’ve been lowering the minimum time requirements and have brought in sim evals. That speaks to the starting pay.

[thepoors]

Air Canada is having little problem hiring and therefore have little incentive to beat the competition.

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

[thepoors]

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

[flyingcanuck]

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

so are you? you just made up the 30% offer bullshit. You have no idea what was offered.

[thepoors]

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

so are you? you just made up the 30% offer bullshit. You have no idea what was offered.

How would you know what I know

[flyingcanuck]

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

so are you? you just made up the 30% offer bullshit. You have no idea what was offered.

How would you know what I know

thats the point, youre calling someone out for spreading mis information, while simultaneously spreading misinformation with no proof behind an anonymous account.

[thepoors]

so are you? you just made up the 30% offer bullshit. You have no idea what was offered.

How would you know what I know

thats the point, youre calling someone out for spreading mis information, while simultaneously spreading misinformation with no proof behind an anonymous account.

Okay pal. How exactly would you expect me to provide proof?

There's a difference between leaked info and pure conjecture. Keep defending these spineless morons. See how far that gets us.

[Canadaflyer46]

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

On behalf of the many WJ pilots I work with who are proudly wearing your red lanyard, kindly go f*ck yourself. Hope this post ages well when you get your Delta wages and we’ll revisit it.

[Bingo Fuel]

Way too much "inside baseball" here.

Investors have said in quarterly earnings calls that they expect the raise to be in the vicinity of 30 to 40%. I imagine that's the total raise over 4 years.

There is absolutely no way that AC pilots will accept that, and the disparity is massive. We'll see what happens when the MEC decides that there is something worth putting on the table for a vote.

[thepoors]

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

On behalf of the many WJ pilots I work with who are proudly wearing your red lanyard, kindly go f*ck yourself. Hope this post ages well when you get your Delta wages and we’ll revisit it.

Looking forward to it.

Wearing a lanyard is nice and all, but doesn't mean much now when you had the chance to change things for the better and did nothing but toe the line and maintain the status quo of awful pilot wawcon in this country.

Not sure why you're getting mad at me, you should be angry with your own pilot group. Your MEC backed down from a strike at the key moment and presented you with a pile of shit contract which you proceeded to give a resounding yes vote to, like the good little WJ "owners" you are.

[goingnowherefast]

AC is not WJ. Only in the sense that AC has a stronger bargaining position.
C-suite salary raise comparisons
US airline comparisons
Historical comparisons

WJA negots was also trying to put the cat back in the bag that was Swoop and scope protection. That took up a ton of negotiating capital that AC negots committee doesn't have to expend.

Did WJA sign a crap deal? I suppose that's the opinion of some. Considering all the big ticket items like scope, I'm reasonably impressed with what happened there. Now it's AC negots committee's turn to pattern bargain and leapfrog WJA again.

WEN also has a reasonable contract considering their management is slowly shrinking the airline and selling off their fleet. Sure, the rates matched Porter's, but all the smaller language in the contract adds significant value. How many yr.1 captains are at WEN? VERY few. How many yr.1 captains are at POE? Every single upgrade. There's a lot more money value in a contract than just the rates. Which rates apply, and where one starts is important too.

Please stop disparaging each other's contracts. It's not helpful. Support the ones who are currently at the table, and hope they leapfrog you by a wide margin. Then you can go to your company and turn up the pressure. That's actually quite productive.

[cdnavater]

The company already tried making a 30% offer (which would put starting pay in the ballpark of what your "expectations" are) and the MEC shot it down. They've proven they aren't going to present garbage like that to the membership. WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

You're misinformed and spreading defeatist bullshit, for what reason?

On behalf of the many WJ pilots I work with who are proudly wearing your red lanyard, kindly go f*ck yourself. Hope this post ages well when you get your Delta wages and we’ll revisit it.

Looking forward to it.

Wearing a lanyard is nice and all, but doesn't mean much now when you had the chance to change things for the better and did nothing but toe the line and maintain the status quo of awful pilot wawcon in this country.

Not sure why you're getting mad at me, you should be angry with your own pilot group. Your MEC backed down from a strike at the key moment and presented you with a pile of shit contract which you proceeded to give a resounding yes vote to, like the good little WJ "owners" you are.

Poors, I have been super critical of WJ pilots in the past, however they are not the same group that started the company. Those guys brought down the wages based on a roll of the dice, sure they made money on stock but the old adage of how to make a million in aviation is to start with 2 million could have easily happened. Canada is full of examples of startups not making it so, they fucked over every other pilot by accepting 55/hr to fly a 737 in the left seat. The years to follow of course, there were many “owners” I have many stories to tell about those days.
Fast forward to today, they are ALPA, they do NOT work with management to get er done and most certainly not cucks and losers, I have respect for the current WJ pilots, exception to the 5% rule, they hand their hands tied with arbitration handing Swoop over to WJ, up to 50 fins, going from memory, so that was a huge amount of bargaining capital to deal with and guaranteed it was monetized to the fullest extent.
You as an Air Canada pilot should be able to empathize with arbitration forcing unwanted shit sandwich down your throats, what followed was a 10 year deal that prevented you making any real gains and thereby hindering others from pattern bargaining, glass houses and all maybe let that sink in for a bit.
I have a great amount of excitement and hope you guys and gals will get er down but keep your eye on the ball and don’t disparage other pilots who will be standing beside you at the picket line!
Good luck,

[joefo]

Lol right...that's why they've had to cancel half the PIT classes they had planned since April.

What's your agenda here? If you want to lick boots there's better places to do that.

Licking boots? Does it sound like I am trying to impress someone?

I'm giving this forum the benefit of my recent experience. My experience is not necessarily going to be your experience, but I saw and felt what you are seeing and feeling now and it lead to disappointment and resentment.

All I am saying is anticipate the chance of getting shafted and being told to be happy about it by your union.

Max, the Encore contract is as good as it was going to get given the little leverage Encore has. Don’t come here “setting expectations” just because you’re still upset about DH’s inside the block when it was a positive for 80% of the pilot group. AC is not WestJet or Encore.

[crystalpizza]

I fully expect that anything that is not at the absolute bare minimum, 2003 rates adjusted for inflation, WITH massive QOL improvements included, is not going to see the light of day as a TA let alone be ratified. If it’s QOL items the company is hanging on then they will have to fork out a lot more money yet.

[altiplano]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

[thepoors]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

Look man I get it, maybe that's over the line. But at some point we need to draw a line - or we end up making the same mistakes. I don't think it's unreasonable to say the WJ contract is junk and they settled big time. There needs to be acknowledgement and acceptance of that.

Making these distinctions is necessary (at the risk of upsetting a few people) or we are setting ourselves up to be "satisfied" with more mediocrity as well. We need to put an end these patterns.

[Man_in_the_sky]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

This is absolutly this guy’s opinion only. This does not reflect at all how we think.

[702pipeliner]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

Comments like his are confirmation to what a lot of people think that air canada pilots believe about his position. Let's be real he's not the only one.

Makes me happy to be saying peace out to the industry in Canada and go to greener pastures.

Good luck boys hopefully you can pull something out of this. Hate for it to be all for naught and comments like his echo for years to come.

[propfeather]

Look man I get it, maybe that's over the line. But at some point we need to draw a line - or we end up making the same mistakes. I don't think it's unreasonable to say the WJ contract is junk and they settled big time. There needs to be acknowledgement and acceptance of that.

Making these distinctions is necessary (at the risk of upsetting a few people) or we are setting ourselves up to be "satisfied" with more mediocrity as well. We need to put an end these patterns.

You could say this without throwing insults at fellow pilots. We're all on the same team here.

[altiplano]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

Look man I get it, maybe that's over the line. But at some point we need to draw a line - or we end up making the same mistakes. I don't think it's unreasonable to say the WJ contract is junk and they settled big time. There needs to be acknowledgement and acceptance of that.

Making these distinctions is necessary (at the risk of upsetting a few people) or we are setting ourselves up to be "satisfied" with more mediocrity as well. We need to put an end these patterns.

I don't think you do get it.

Statements like that hurt us all and reflect poorly on the rest of us.

The fact is that we have WJ volunteers working with our guys and backing up our guys right now. What are you doing to advance our cause?

It's also a fact that most of the WJ contract is better than AC's today. Pay, scheduling, reserve, vacation... they got rid of their LCC in one cycle and we've let one of the worst airlines in the world that is rouge drag our wawcon down for over 12 years now. We barely voted No the first time ('11) and after getting it shoved down out throats we've voted yes for it 3 times ('14, '17, '21). Talk about weak cucks. 87 year running mature airline pilot contact that I wouldn't wipe my ass with.

What WJ achieved they did it in spite of us. 20 years ACPA has been throwing down shit sandwiches on this profession in this country and we kept stroking and eating it up. Take a look in the mirror and especially take a look in the rear view on where we're coming from before you start tossing stones.

Was money left behind at WJ? I don't know, but they made big fucking gains. Now after we finally grow a set and top them big time this year they are going to beat us again in '26. Then we'll top them again in '27.

Get with the fucking program. There's no room on this train for attitudes like yours.

Progress takes solidarity and respect across company boundaries. We push and lift each other.

[altiplano]

WJ are a bunch of cucks and losers - and our MEC has made it very clear we are not WJ.

That's way out of line. Damaging and divisive comments like that hurt what we're trying to achieve.

Comments like his are confirmation to what a lot of people think that air canada pilots believe about his position. Let's be real he's not the only one.

Makes me happy to be saying peace out to the industry in Canada and go to greener pastures.

Good luck boys hopefully you can pull something out of this. Hate for it to be all for naught and comments like his echo for years to come.

Maybe he's a shill... or 5% rule maybe... him, Captain Kirk, Microphone Mckay... It isn't typical at all. But hell, I know guys at every airline that hate every other airline. Fuckem.

Fact is the seat I am in. the seat you are in, is only because the other airline didn't call first... That's a fact.

Colour of stripes on our shoulders doesn't matter, the common enemy is at the board room table making backroom deals and plans to suppress your value. Pay attention.