The Air Canada OTS thread

[alkaseltzer]

Saying No, and more often ? You guys are a pair of idiots. While flat pay is a problem, a career at Air Canada is a solution for over 4500 pilots and likely 6000 plus in the coming years.

Give your head a shake guys, saying No to AC at a time like this is likely the dumbest thing anyone who has been offered the opportunity could do.

Good riddance. We don't want you.

100%!!!!

[Crewbunk]

The point is the only way to CHANGE it is more and more ppl say NO! An unfortunate and bitter pill to swallow.

You are correct, it’s supply and demand. Right now Air Canada is having absolutely no trouble filling its new hire classes. As long as that continues, things will not change.

Things may change in the future, though. But in the mean time, the 1000 or so pilots they hired between now and then, will be that much further up the chain.

[DanWEC]

Saying No, and more often ? You guys are a pair of idiots.

Come again now?

[Admiral Benson]

Not many people are willing to martyr their whole career just so they can say they stuck it to the man and said no to AC. If your under 35 that decision means your wiling to leave millions of dollars on the table over the course of your career.

Everyone knows that flat pay sucks, but everyone also knows that this industry is usually two steps forward, one step back for the first decade of everyone's career. I'm also sure everyone was told at some point to "stay light" (financially speaking) until your settled in the location where you want to hang your hat.

The labour pool is full of people under the age of 35, that are in the first decade of their flying career, that have remained financially unburdened, and want to fly for AC. That is why flat pay exists. Because the economics allow it to exist.

[Ash Ketchum]

Not many people are willing to martyr their whole career just so they can say they stuck it to the man and said no to AC. If your under 35 that decision means your wiling to leave millions of dollars on the table over the course of your career.

Everyone knows that flat pay sucks, but everyone also knows that this industry is usually two steps forward, one step back for the first decade of everyone's career. I'm also sure everyone was told at some point to "stay light" (financially speaking) until your settled in the location where you want to hang your hat.

The labour pool is full of people under the age of 35, that are in the first decade of their flying career, that have remained financially unburdened, and want to fly for AC. That is why flat pay exists. Because the economics allow it to exist.

Exactly, AC is a private business like any other and shareholder profits are paramount. From a business perspective AC has no reason to change flat pay as long as they keep the ground school seats full which they have been doing. I don't really see that changing unless the US opens up for Canadian pilots.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am curious as to the math leading to the conclusion that a pilot would be leaving behind millions saying no to AC. That's a fairly bold analysis.

I think it's a lot closer than most would be willing to admit. For someone hired who is entitled to a DB pension and will hold left on a WB for at least 10 years, yes there will be a decent difference, but for a lot of the last batch of current hires over 30, they will likely never see the left seat of a WB for enough time to build up their DC package, if at all.

The ones that got hired in 2017-2019 in their 20s from Jazz will be in the best position possible to take advantage of their lengthy AC career, but the average career earnings IIRC is still slightly under 200k/annum - as the bulk earnings are weighted in the mid-high 100s for the first 15-20 years. Certainly very very respectable, but not enough to definitively say that someone is leaving millions behind saying no to AC.

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

Now if AC lops of flat pay, and pilots are starting north of 100 and then within 12 months onto formula, that's a different story.

[Admiral Benson]

The math is specific to my situation of course, and ultimately it depends on the pay ceiling of your previous operator.

But I was hired at 28. In my case, modifying flat pay moves the needle of my career earnings an insignificant amount because I can do 37 years at AC.

4 years of flat pay is less than 10% of my career.

from the pay ceiling of my previous operator it would be millions of dollars left on the table in my situation, but obviously everyones situation is unique.

[Alkasultzer]

First off. Thank you Gary for being the tie break to let the pilot group vote. I hoped you would be the MEC chair that would have the foresight to see that this type of decision belongs to the group and not the MEC. It could not have been an easy decision, good on you.

Secondly, I'm a yes vote. I agree with the masses, there could have been more to make this an easier decision. But here we are and seeing through the first 48 hours of negative echo chambers, I see a lot of good for our group.

Why I'm a yes, I believe in the growth plan coming for summer 2023 and I want to see more WB CA and FO jobs. I want to see the flat pay reduced to 2 years, and the year 13/14 is another permanent gain I'm happy to see.

I'm a believer that when the company grows, we all win. 2019 was one of my best years at AC and had it not been for 2020 and covid I can only imagine the point my career would be at.

By voting Yes, We allow the bargaining for 2023/2024 to start at this new point and do not need to spend bargaining capital getting this back on the table in 2 years.

The training effeciencies the company gains are wins for us and it gives Jazz the room needed to recover from the Covid debacle the federal government put us all in.

I believe that there is no second swing at this, if we vote no there will be no second chance and it's the new hires that suffer. They have suffered enough over the past 3 years.

I believe in Murray bringing us a fair offer, he's a pilots VP and I trust him.

I do not think we lose any leverage for 2023 and 2024. I think our position is stronger in 2023 negots by voting yes and we show the execs that we believe in the plan and expect their plan to bring profits in 2023. We will share in those profits and demand the wage increases when we have true leverage.

If they fail to do those things, and fail to deliver, at that point saying no makes sense to me.

100% agree with the 20% who agree with you!!

[schnitzel2k3]

The math is specific to my situation of course, and ultimately it depends on the pay ceiling of your previous operator.

But I was hired at 28. In my case, modifying flat pay moves the needle of my career earnings an insignificant amount because I can do 37 years at AC.

4 years of flat pay is less than 10% of my career.

from the pay ceiling of my previous operator it would be millions of dollars left on the table in my situation, but obviously everyones situation is unique.

Thank you for clarifying - that does make more sense. You will be in a great position going forward.

The math for a lot of pilots in their mid 30s and onwards is less clear, which was my situation having already been in the industry at that point for nearly 10 years when I got the call.

[LifeAt90Kts]

I am one of those decently paid 705 captains that recently took the leap to AC. It was an incredibly difficult decision for every reason you guys have been discussing above.

I will preface all of this by saying that flat pay is an abomination and needs to go, a decade ago. When I did the math though it still ended up a net benefit, in my particular situation. And no I don’t live in my moms basement in the centre of the universe, I have a mortgage and all those adult responsibilities.

Unfortunately I didn’t have a crystal ball so when I did the math I had to make conservative assumptions about inflation, upgrade times, etc. I’m in my early 30’s and don’t plan on working past 60 (earlier if I can swing it).

When I laid it all out on my spreadsheet the move to AC earned me an extra 6 million if I work all the way to my planned retirement age. Depending on how I worked the variables it was 6-8 million but like I said, I used the most conservative variables in my decision making.

Wealth begets wealth. So that extra 6 mil in capital to work with could mean less working years and a more secure retirement.

Other factors. I was maxing out my CARs limits to make all that money, and that isn’t sustainable in the long term. I’ll be making less, but working less too. The first year I upgrade, I’ll beat my best year up north but I also might see my own bed once or twice. Better benefits are attractive as I get older too.

Could there be a recession? Sure. But I got laid off from my supposedly secure northern gig too so nothing is guaranteed. I also don’t know how quick AC would be to trigger layoffs after seeing how expensive that actually is.

Everyone’s circumstance is different, AC is not the be all end all. If you want to go to AC now is the time. If you want to keep doing what you’re doing, all the power to ya.

[schnitzel2k3]

What was the rough payscale you were working with at your previous 705?

An extra 6 million is significantly more than I found when I ran my calculations a few years back.

What did you find was the biggest addition to your net wealth estimate?

[LifeAt90Kts]

When I left it was ~$100k base, ~$140k working almost every legal hour.

[schnitzel2k3]

When I left it was ~$100k base, ~$140k working almost every legal hour.

Rog, yeah, that would be a big difference. If you're maxing out around 100k on normal duty hours, no question AC would be a big career financial upgrade.

Let's all hope AC figures its worth investing in flightcrew salaries and starts to compete for talent. Everyone wins at that point.

[Jester123]

Asking for a friend, what fleet type is upgrade the quickest at AC with a YYZ or YUL base?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Asking for a friend, what fleet type is upgrade the quickest at AC with a YYZ or YUL base?

Probably rouge 319.

[Curiousflyer]

When I laid it all out on my spreadsheet the move to AC earned me an extra 6 million if I work all the way to my planned retirement age. Depending on how I worked the variables it was 6-8 million but like I said, I used the most conservative variables in my decision making.

I think it’s worth noting that your $6-$8 million “extra” is based in 2050 dollars? and not income tax adjusted. I’m guessing here as your evaluation is ridiculous.

In todays dollars, adjusted for income tax, you could do 35 years at AC as a Narrowbody Captain and not even take home $5 million.

[bob99]

Asking for a friend, what fleet type is upgrade the quickest at AC with a YYZ or YUL base?

From the last equipment bid, the most junior captain spots, in order, were UL 220, UL 319, VR 37, YZ 220. Generally though I’d expect the 220 to remain the most junior.

[tata324]

Hi there, I'll like some heads up from anyone that can. I did the interview in late November and the gents mentioned it should take 4-6 weeks to hear back from them. I haven't heard back and it's my fourth week, just curious if I should be worried or if no news is good news. i also didn't get a request for a background check either.

[GeoffPilot]

Anytime you see "quick upgrades" it is essentially code for "crap contract"

Instead of fighting for improvements for all members, too much time has been spent swindling with management on promises of expansion at the expense of some that won't be so lucky

[Crewbunk]

From the last equipment bid, the most junior captain spots, in order, were UL 220, UL 319, VR 37, YZ 220. Generally though I’d expect the 220 to remain the most junior.

The 220 is not a bad place to sit for a while. If you look at the pay scales above, it’s not really that much less than the 737/320. And, as the 220 hasn’t been “rouged”, the high time single day cycles are still at mainline.

You’ll progress faster and at around 50% you should be only flying around 10-12 days a month.

[Curiousflyer]

From the last equipment bid, the most junior captain spots, in order, were UL 220, UL 319, VR 37, YZ 220. Generally though I’d expect the 220 to remain the most junior.

The 220 is not a bad place to sit for a while. If you look at the pay scales above, it’s not really that much less than the 737/320. And, as the 220 hasn’t been “rouged”, the high time single day cycles are still at mainline.

You’ll progress faster and at around 50% you should be only flying around 10-12 days a month.

From the January blocks, 220 Captains need a seniority of 1600 to start lowering their days. You’d need around 1100 to get your days down to 12. That’s a similar seniority range as 777 captain on reserve.

The median for the 220 is lower (more seniority) than the 737. While the bottom end of the range is easier to get in to, you will not progress faster through it than the 737. That’s the current reality, but of course subject to change over time. I do agree that over the next few years the 220 will be the most junior fleet.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Ahhh yes

The elusive pay "your dues" after you paid your dues carrot

You will work "xxx" days at "xxx" salary in "xxx" years. Just keep being a good boy, vote yes, and one day seniority will fix a poor contract

Translation: cheaper costs for the airline on the backs of the pilot group

Until proper daily guarantees, full paid DHs and a respectable vacation credit is addressed, the junior pilots will continue to suffer because of a clever "one day it will be yours" narrative

Don't fall for it. Expect more. Open negotiations aren't that far away.

This place doesn't need to be a ponzi scheme despite what some people think here. We don't all need to be always on short call reserve with no commuting policy.

There are actually better ways to treat all seniority levels

[altiplano]

The thing is... it wasn't always this way.

50% 320 used to be really good. Any WB used to be really really good. Everything paid well.

Now all but the top few on the NB work max days and get optimized and lose their day off bids or flying they should hold, WB guys don't have max days and many work 20 or 21.

We were told it was to protect pay, until it wasn't, it was to protect the pension, then it was gone, it was to keep flying, compete, protect jobs... bunch of bullshit. It was the guys that already got theirs pulling the ladder up behind them.

Leadership. No VO. Fly your block and only your block. Follow the contract, don't extend.

[tata324]

Hi anyone know the current feedback time post interview?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Hi anyone know the current feedback time post interview?

If you're at the top of the pile, a couple of days. Closer to the bottom could be up to 6 months or more! No news is good news generally speaking.