WJ mainline cancelling GS due to lack of experienced applicants

[Aviator12]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

[lostaviator]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

I’m with you up until your last statement.

I agree. I’m sticking it out. I don’t think the grass is greener for my situation.

However, I don’t see upgrade times being reduced as a result of this high turnover. We do have some more senior people leaving, but the majority are still low seniority. If JA has said one thing in his videos that I believe to be 100% accurate it’s the fact they can’t upgrade pilots if they don’t have the FO’s to back fill their spots. We can’t have 1000 captains with 500 FO’s. Makes pairing construction a challenge. Unless… and here’s an idea…. They start paying everyone who has been here 10 years at their respective captain rate. Ha! Dare to dream.

[daedalusx]

If WJ FOs were paid Delta FO wages or even Spirit Air wages ... there wouldn't be much worry about upgrade times

[Dronepiper]

Honestly a long upgrade time sucks, but it would suck wayyyy less if FO’s actually made better money.

I mean, a 3rd year A320 Jetblue FO now makes 185k USD a year.

Now I don’t expect to make that in Canada, but I feel like WJ and AC rates could jump 30% and progress quicker. I feel like the following is a pretty solid “base pay” structure for mainline 737 FO’s at WJ.

1st Year - 95k
2nd year - 105k
3rd year - 130k
4th year - 140k
5th year - 142k
6th year - 145k
7th year - 150k
8th year - 155k
9th year - 160k
10th year - 165k

Add an extra 30k/year on those numbers for the 787.

I don’t believe this is anything crazy. It’s still way less then our American counterparts, but I think it’s totally fair and doable. Just look at what AC used to pay in 2003. Canadian aviation used to be just as good as the USA. We lost a lot after 9/11 and AC’s bankruptcy.

[fish4life]

Honestly a long upgrade time sucks, but it would suck wayyyy less if FO’s actually made better money.

I mean, a 3rd year A320 Jetblue FO now makes 185k USD a year.

Now I don’t expect to make that in Canada, but I feel like WJ and AC rates could jump 30% and progress quicker. I feel like the following is a pretty solid “base pay” structure for mainline 737 FO’s at WJ.

1st Year - 95k
2nd year - 105k
3rd year - 130k
4th year - 140k
5th year - 142k
6th year - 145k
7th year - 150k
8th year - 155k
9th year - 160k
10th year - 165k

Add an extra 30k/year on those numbers for the 787.

I don’t believe this is anything crazy. It’s still way less then our American counterparts, but I think it’s totally fair and doable. Just look at what AC used to pay in 2003. Canadian aviation used to be just as good as the USA. We lost a lot after 9/11 and AC’s bankruptcy.

The American carriers lost a lot post 9/11 as well, entire pensions wiped out etc. It wasn’t long ago that regional FO’s in the US were making 17k/yr now with bonuses they are almost making that much per month

[averageatbest]

They can't hire enough pilots on the 737, yet they are incentivizing Encore pilots to leave en masse with their shitty policies and jokes about how Toronto and Montreal don't matter.

[Dias]

Pay more. That's all you have to do.

[averageatbest]

Pay more. That's all you have to do.

You are obviously not flying for WestJet or any of it's subsidiaries.

Pay is a big thing that needs to be addressed, but so is job security and respect. Top brass say that trust goes both ways as if this is an equal relationship. We aren't a married couple with equal say.

They're negotiating in bad faith with WS/WO ALPA and have already started pushing what they perceive as loopholes in the WR MOA.

[Vanguard]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

True but I think if you’re young enough. AC is hiring a wave of pilots. I think it’s a good time to get in. 2018/2019 hires took 767F CA… young guys. Guys who say omg they’re gonna be on reserve for life blah blah blah. If you’re not on the inside you’re just on the outside looking at a diff lense. Even if they sit reserve or jr — they’re making bank $ for it and have a pension…one thing about seniority is that at least there is some consistency in your shit schedule. If you’re in your 30s it’s a no brainer. Flat will most probably go away soon enough too. Suck for WJ to lose real quality pilots tho… that on its own is a commodity lately. AC hires all kinds still - scum of aviation to top brass … look at KD for example … we’d trade him any day for PR..

[Canadaflyer46]

Negot update from the ALPA meeting this week. Apparently the company not only wants to keep the B-scale for Swoop, but they also want to add more concessions to it. Needless to say the union is gearing everyone up to ‘Be Ready’.
Question is will the company finally give the pilots a good agreement when their feet are held to the fire. My hunch is they’d rather sink the ship than do that. Or maybe they’ll eventually come to their senses like at Alaska.

[averageatbest]

Negot update from the ALPA meeting this week. Apparently the company not only wants to keep the B-scale for Swoop, but they also want to add more concessions to it. Needless to say the union is gearing everyone up to ‘Be Ready’.
Question is will the company finally give the pilots a good agreement when their feet are held to the fire. My hunch is they’d rather sink the ship than do that. Or maybe they’ll eventually come to their senses like at Alaska.

[2Shoes]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

4 years of flat pay won't be around much longer, and you can upgrade to left seat before that which gets rid of flat pay. The recent upgrades are guys who were on flat pay.

10 years of reserve? Never heard of that. Narrowbody FO you can expect 3-4 months of reserve currently, then a published schedule.

No Xmas off for 20 years? I had Xmas off this year, and I'm still on flat pay.

[Canadaflyer46]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

That’s a good point, however with the fast progression at AC now it’s a gamble to stay at WJ waiting (who knows how long, maybe a year?) to see the next CA. If you have a desire to go to AC, NOW is the time. Another year on those extra 500 pilots ahead of you could mean 3 years instead of 3 months of reserve.

[sstaurus]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

That’s a good point, however with the fast progression at AC now it’s a gamble to stay at WJ waiting (who knows how long, maybe a year?) to see the next CA. If you have a desire to go to AC, NOW is the time. Another year on those extra 500 pilots ahead of you could mean 3 years instead of 3 months of reserve.

Exactly, if you have any inkling you want to go, now is the best time. Is a best-case 30% raise at WJ gonna sway you? That shouldn’t be a factor if this is a 20-30 year career move for you. If you miss this year, might as well just stay at WJ.

[MaxAuto]

Negot update from the ALPA meeting this week. Apparently the company not only wants to keep the B-scale for Swoop, but they also want to add more concessions to it. Needless to say the union is gearing everyone up to ‘Be Ready’.
Question is will the company finally give the pilots a good agreement when their feet are held to the fire. My hunch is they’d rather sink the ship than do that. Or maybe they’ll eventually come to their senses like at Alaska.

What's actually going to happen to Swoop? What's the overall consensus? Will WG be the 30 aircraft ulcc? Operating three AOC sounds complicated.

[daedalusx]

Can Onex legally use a WG acquisition to get around the ULCC tail limit on WJ ML scope ? IE, Dissolve Swoop and/or merge it into the Sunwing brand and keep expanding via the new Sunwing vacation 2.0/ULCC ?

[kiaszceski]

sunning voted for a new payscale, not sure it would fit Pwoop.
However they could merge WS and WG and let swoop for Encore flow... Then pwoop pilots could flow over WG and WS...

[averageatbest]

Can Onex legally use a WG acquisition to get around the ULCC tail limit on WJ ML scope ? IE, Dissolve Swoop and/or merge it into the Sunwing brand and keep expanding via the new Sunwing vacation 2.0/ULCC ?

Onex does whatever they want and force it on their employees.

Pilots must follow the "fly it and grieve it" rule whereas the company follows the do it and demand an apology afterward rule.

[Curiousflyer]

4 years of flat pay won't be around much longer, and you can upgrade to left seat before that which gets rid of flat pay. The recent upgrades are guys who were on flat pay.

10 years of reserve? Never heard of that. Narrowbody FO you can expect 3-4 months of reserve currently, then a published schedule.

No Xmas off for 20 years? I had Xmas off this year, and I'm still on flat pay.

There are currently no plans to get rid of 4 year flat pay.

The top 5 reserves on the narrowbody have 10 years of service in. Yes you could still hold a junior block at this seniority, but it is still a senior reserve seniority range. So absolutely some will still be on reserve 10 years in if they decide to take that quick upgrade on the narrowbody.

Narrowbody captains holding Christmas off have 15-16 years in, so yeah 20 is a reasonable guess if people are going to take that upgrade.

At AC you can have schedule or pay, not both. People within the socialized bidding world don’t fully appreciate how bad the schedules can be, their are plenty of junior narrowbody captains that bid right seat widebody a few years in because they just can’t handle the horrible lifestyle for more than 3-4 years.

[RippleRock]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

True but I think if you’re young enough. AC is hiring a wave of pilots. I think it’s a good time to get in. 2018/2019 hires took 767F CA… young guys. Guys who say omg they’re gonna be on reserve for life blah blah blah. If you’re not on the inside you’re just on the outside looking at a diff lense. Even if they sit reserve or jr — they’re making bank $ for it and have a pension…one thing about seniority is that at least there is some consistency in your shit schedule. If you’re in your 30s it’s a no brainer. Flat will most probably go away soon enough too. Suck for WJ to lose real quality pilots tho… that on its own is a commodity lately. AC hires all kinds still - scum of aviation to top brass … look at KD for example … we’d trade him any day for PR..

How could you possibly recommend a move from WJ to Big Red? Especially Cargo. The WACON there is abysmal, which is exactly why its going so junior. No one sane wants it. Good luck to those "new young Skippers" flying a widebody into Quito or Bogota on a dark stormy night with a very recent King Air pilot out of Timmins as their wing-man. The problems haven't even begun in regard to this.

Our $hit may smell slightly less than the rest in Canada, but it still really stinks compared to our US counterparts. It especially reeks at Cargo.

Best bet is to stay and clean up your own room and see how it turns out before eyeballing your neighbours.

[Bil Derberg]

We just lost Rashid to AC. What a gem he was! WJ is in a spiral dive to failure. Apparently the CEO is getting sacked as well. What stupid leadership lets that many pilot leave just to save pennies on the dollar.

PilotRashid left WJ? Wow. Things must be getting really bad if guys like him leave WJ. He pretty much bled teal since the beginning. At least the was enjoyable to fly with and good pilot too. AC is getting some really good people now. I sense some good changes coming for contract season.

" Bleed Teal " Sounds like a cult...

[averageatbest]

" Bleed Teal " Sounds like a cult...

How do you think they got pilots to clean airplanes for no compensation for so many years?

[lostaviator]

" Bleed Teal " Sounds like a cult...

How do you think they got pilots to clean airplanes for no compensation for so many years?

Or convinced people to PAY money to clean the exteriors.

[Vanguard]

We just lost Rashid to AC. What a gem he was! WJ is in a spiral dive to failure. Apparently the CEO is getting sacked as well. What stupid leadership lets that many pilot leave just to save pennies on the dollar.

PilotRashid left WJ? Wow. Things must be getting really bad if guys like him leave WJ. He pretty much bled teal since the beginning. At least the was enjoyable to fly with and good pilot too. AC is getting some really good people now. I sense some good changes coming for contract season.

" Bleed Teal " Sounds like a cult...

It does. Not like we don’t have to those at AC either. Mehhh… as long as I can sit with the guy for the day in peace I don’t care. Like I said, good people are a commodity in our business. I meant it as an expression with an assumption. He wasn’t drooling in the kool-aid, just that never thought he would consider leaving…

[Vanguard]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

True but I think if you’re young enough. AC is hiring a wave of pilots. I think it’s a good time to get in. 2018/2019 hires took 767F CA… young guys. Guys who say omg they’re gonna be on reserve for life blah blah blah. If you’re not on the inside you’re just on the outside looking at a diff lense. Even if they sit reserve or jr — they’re making bank $ for it and have a pension…one thing about seniority is that at least there is some consistency in your shit schedule. If you’re in your 30s it’s a no brainer. Flat will most probably go away soon enough too. Suck for WJ to lose real quality pilots tho… that on its own is a commodity lately. AC hires all kinds still - scum of aviation to top brass … look at KD for example … we’d trade him any day for PR..

How could you possibly recommend a move from WJ to Big Red? Especially Cargo. The WACON there is abysmal, which is exactly why its going so junior. No one sane wants it. Good luck to those "new young Skippers" flying a widebody into Quito or Bogota on a dark stormy night with a very recent King Air pilot out of Timmins as their wing-man. The problems haven't even begun in regard to this.

Our $hit may smell slightly less than the rest in Canada, but it still really stinks compared to our US counterparts. It especially reeks at Cargo.

Best bet is to stay and clean up your own room and see how it turns out before eyeballing your neighbours.

What is abysmal to you is opportunity for others now. How did you vote during the pandemic when the company came to the pilots with their tails between their legs to ask for a 10% discount?

Did you have the courage to vote no then? The senior guys have been the problem from the beginning at AC. They’re out of touch with the reality of new pilots while they sit and enjoy their DB pensions as they’ve sold out the young so many times over these 10yrs. No one wants it he says but heck if I was 30 again and a 767CA in Canada I wouldn’t have much to complain about.

The old guard is gone, that’s a fact. It still hurts them to see that we want to bring better changes to aviation in Canada. Pilot costs don’t make or break airlines but man you can’t get that out of their heads. Change is coming and people without foresight will always sit there and bitch about something or the other.