Wide body with no former jet-time

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Because a large turbo prop like a Q400 is harder to fly, than a E175 or something like that. So I rather have the pilots, with better piloting skills, e.g. the Q400 pilots, in the right seat over an RJ or E175 pilot.

When I was at Sunwing, they had 2 training streams. One for those with jet time and those without. I came with about 4500 TT, with 60 of that on jets (CRJ) and the rest on turboprops (Metro and Dash-8). The company decided that wasn't enough jet time and so put me on the "non-jet time" stream.

I believe the only difference between the two streams was the amount of Line Indoc that had to be done (25 vs 50 hours for example.. I can't remember exactly. The cadets had upwards of 200+ hours of Line Indoc).

Just goes to show that even though I had some jet time, the company still felt I had lots to learn and so gave me more line indoc, which I was thankful for.

[ZBBYLW]

I'm not in management so don't know exactly the reasons but it was told to me, guys who got on to the wide bodies with no experience were having trouble getting good at them.

On the NBs at AC you often will have 20+ sectors a month even on reserve.

The Rouge 767 was similar. Sure there were some guys doing 8 leg months, but lots of North America flying and you could get used to flying and with no reserve everyone was flying.

Now with the 777/787 you can get some super long sectors. 6 sectors a month isn't out of the realm of possibilities. Especially on reserve. They also have Auggie pairings were you're basically an RP and don't do a take off and landing.

Flying a Q400 or 777 isn't rocket science. They both however have different skills. Having a guy operate one take off and landing a month wouldn't be doing him or her any favours especially if they are new to jet operation.

[pelmet]

I was more so refering to engine out operations can be more challenging in a large turboprop, compared to an CRJ (basically centre line thrust). But certaintly both operations have their challenges. However, I think you folks are over reacting, flying a jet is not very difficult at all. High altitude upset recovery is very basic, and can be trained.

There are other things as well including the hugely important…..upset avoidance.

I suspect that the concern at the airline is not having the captain in the cockpit for extended periods of time with very junior people for the rest of the crew.

Now please don’t take this personally. I have plenty of turboprop time and would suggest extra training for jet experience only pilots. The same goes for people with no GA time getting into GA.

[BTD]

This is silly. Even if it were harder to fly one or the other, it is the vastly different world. Oceanic procedures, weather in remote areas, differences in a heavy swept wing jet vs a straight wing turbo prop. It’s just different.

If you were a captain on a steamship or modern cruise ship, how comfortable are you going to sleep when your chief officer is the officer of the watch but has come straight from spending his whole career sailing 3 masted tall ships. Arguably more difficult, but in a totally different world.

Make that guy a junior officer until he gains the experience. Then after a short time, he will likely excel.

[digits_]

Jeesh. Reading some of these messages makes it seem like AC just dumps pilots straight from a Dash 8 or a King Air into a widebody without any training whatsoever...

[Fanblade]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

[Crewbunk]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

[Dry Guy]

Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

Mine was Heathrow. I didn't have much experience operating to an airport with a functional control tower.

[Blueontop]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

I would argue that flat pay in the narrow scope of the term is not much of a problem. Where I see the issue is what pay is being offered in the flat pay brackets.

If flat pay was 75, 80, 85, and 90 in the first four years (respectively) it wouldn't be as much of slap in the face as starting at 55.

[ant_321]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

I would argue that flat pay in the narrow scope of the term is not much of a problem. Where I see the issue is what pay is being offered in the flat pay brackets.

If flat pay was 75, 80, 85, and 90 in the first four years (respectively) it wouldn't be as much of slap in the face as starting at 55.

I think you have Stockholm syndrome. Nobody should be making less than $100k at Air Canada. Even that isn’t enough to have any real quality of life in the cities where the bases are.

[Crewbunk]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

In a thread entitled “Wide body with no former jet-time”, no it’s not. Really.

If you want to sway the subject to the morality, justification and circumstances of why flat pay even exists, that’s something else. Throw in the soon to be irrelevant ACPA as well. But …. it still is not a problem that pilots without jet time are flying wide body aircraft.

Doing Line-Indoc for over 14 years on the A320 and A330, I have flown with many many pilots whose first flight with me in an A330, was their first jet flight. (Other than the simulator).

Was it a problem? I wish it were appropriate to take pictures in the cockpit, but if you could see the wide grins after their first landing. You’d have the answer.

It’s just a big airplane.

[Loading...]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

[BTD]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

That is all true.

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

[ZBBYLW]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

Dude? You can't be serious that you support 777FOs being paid 115k a year? Please tell me this is a joke. By year 4 you have the ability to be part activated so no sense keeping flat pay.

I'd say take every RP and FO's formula pay year 1 and maybe 2 and / by the number of those positions. That becomes flat hourly pay for two years and after that formula.

[TheStig]

The role of flat pay is to ensure junior pilots don’t earn more than those senior to them due to the equipment they’re assigned on their PIT course.

For example, the class starting this past week could only be offered RP positions, while the class later this month may have FO positions available. If New Hire pilots started on formula pay immediately the junior pilots would earn more than the senior pilots.

Flat pay should be one year and be a three digit hourly rate, after one year every pilot will have had the opportunity to bid to and be trained into a position that their seniority allows them to hold regardless of what initial position they were assigned when joining.

To echo what Fanblade stated, if pilots were paid formula rates at year two there would be no new hire vacancies for wide body FO’s.

[Crewbunk]

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

I get what you are saying. But realistically, if you were a Triple Captain and you looked at your crew on your say … YYZ-GRU flight and you saw both the F/O and the R/P were brand new to the type, would it really matter if their previous type was a Dash-8 or ten years on the 320?

The real issue is that you are crossing the Amazon in the middle of the night with two that have never done it before. But, as I said previously, the study material is there and I find new guys on a type are so well prepared, it’s impressive.

[BTD]

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

I get what you are saying. But realistically, if you were a Triple Captain and you looked at your crew on your say … YYZ-GRU flight and you saw both the F/O and the R/P were brand new to the type, would it really matter if their previous type was a Dash-8 or ten years on the 320?

The real issue is that you are crossing the Amazon in the middle of the night with two that have never done it before. But, as I said previously, the study material is there and I find new guys on a type are so well prepared, it’s impressive.

If the question is what would I prefer, well I would choose the 320 time. As you mention at the end of the day it isn’t a huge deal. I’ve done IOE here for about 5 years and am currently on the ‘67. I agree that most of the new hires are very sharp.

The real difference as you eluded to, is that it is now possible to have 2 guys who haven’t flown a jet, are brand new at the company and haven’t flown in the area much. None of it is hard, it’s just good to have experience. Go back 15 years ago and your FO on the wide bodies had at least 10 years at the company.

Get rid of flat pay and some of that will go away.

[sportingrifle]

Latest new hire class had 11 pilots with 705 jet time, 5 of them with heavy time.

[FL030]

Latest new hire class had 11 pilots with 705 jet time, 5 of them with heavy time.

At least one straight from the PC-12 too I noticed.

[flying4dollars]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

[Canadaflyer46]

If new hire classes are being filled with experienced pilots with all this 705 and heavy time, then flat pay is surely destined to stay? The company won’t want to increase the rates so long as they’re filling classes. I suppose we’ll see how much bargaining capital guys are willing to use on it at the negotiating table next year.

[Loading...]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

but.. Why?

Canadian aviation at it's finest, never striving for better..

[co-joe]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.