Might be a good time to examine your life if 36,000 and an early death are your lot.
The fact that 10+ people have died in accidents lately is nothing but tragic. The fact that it is used to describe the need for more pay because it is serious business...
Big picture, the small feed the big so the big can make money... we're in a state where the one big can barely make money because of amongst other things, salaries and wages, not to mention fuel. They are cutting jobs instead of cutting wages. Big picture. The small have equally small, with a few exeptions of klondyke/649 jackpot scenarios, markets and even smaller profit margins. Catch 22... ask for more money, get more money, fewer jobs, more work for those who actually get more money... more complaining about working too much, hire more people, not getting paid enough, fewer jobs, complain about working too much... and so goes the song...
If all the companies had the same profit margin and the same size bank account... boy this industry would be great to work in!!!
And STL, I know you know all this, and probably disagree... so I beg of you not stir this on my behalf. The fact that I am volunteering my precious Miller time to be on this site is... disturbing!
Flying Nutcracker wrote: The fact that I am volunteering my precious Miller time to be on this site is... disturbing!
You are of course 100% correct. And yes, on certain levels I disagree. Flying is a serious business, and most on here don't seem to get that....
However, accepting that it is the way it is will only lead to further degradation of the industry. Sometimes fighting for better conditions/wages/etc is the only way to keep it from slipping even further, it's the same principal in labour issues as it is in politics, human rights, and equality...
Now, the only part I take any real offense to it the above quote. Not only am I stuck in a dry camp, craving a beer, but now you've gone and ruined it with putting the thought of MILLER in my head...
Let me get this straight. Are some saying "pay entry level pilots more $$$ cause hey - planes crash and we could get killed?" And that would prevent the crash HOW??? Are you asking for danger pay? That will inspire confidence in the self loading cargo wont it! That arguement is a waste of time.
I do agree however that entry level pilots are getting raped! But it will NEVER END! Not as long as little boys look up in wonderment at airplanes overhead and dream of flying - forever eyes turnt skyward. It's too cool of a job for it's own good.
Guys on the rig get paid big $$$ cause that is the only way to get people to do a shit job - well that and supply and demand - but again way too many easily manipulated youngsters willing to do anything to get that first job actually being paid to fly an airplane - PAID to fly an airplane!!! Where do I sign up!
Think about it - when we were young we paid big $$$ to build hours, acquire ratings and then there is a chance they would pay ME to fly - holy crap - Nirvana to a youngster isn't it! Instead of us paying $100/hour to fly they are paying me $10/hour to do it + benefits etc. That's really a net gain of $110/hour! Stop that ideology and the problem is solved.
FamilyGuy wrote: PAID to fly an airplane!!! Where do I sign up!
That, Family Guy, is why we are where we are....
And I for one wasn't suggesting anything like "danger pay," but to listen to all the shit that gets slung around here really makes me wonder what type of people "sign up" to go flying.... By your logic they can't be very smart.
Oh, and the guys working the rigs, they do it for money - don't kid yourself.... The drill I'm slinging around right now has guys lined up out the door for a chance to make what these guys are making. That's a lame cop out, half the guys in aviation wouldn't last a shift on a drill...
I just wanted to set the record straight about my above post...I do not believe that the wage is high enough. I was only stating that it was above the industry average, in fact one of the best in the industry compared to other similar positions. This is also a job that you can get in the first few years of your career. Most guys I know in this position don't have kids. Again most guys in this position will be making 60-80K less than two years later. Position.
Unless you're working for for coughCMAcoughJazzcough
Furthermore, I or any one of us could go up to Fort Mac and slave away in beautifull Northern Alberta in January with the gangstas and crazies and make tons of money but I prefer doing fukall for a living AND you know what I made fukall for a few years. Now I do fukall for a living and make good money doing it and five years from now I plan on doing even less and make making even beter money.
Sitting in the right seat of a Jetstream isn't rocket surgery or brain science, it's a place to learn.
Pay should be better, I totally agree. But you can't compare it with working up in the camps or hard labour.
I don't get this wheeled 703/04 industry. I was happy bobbing around in a float plane for 15 years. I am married and like to golf. Neither of those goes well with seasonal flying. I have, for the most part, worked for good operators who respected my skills and abilities, and have paid me accordingly. A twelve hr work day was abnormal and would almost invariably be rewarded with a cold beer and a pat on the back. Season end bonus for not hurtin the plane, decent tips. This is in an industry that has seen the tourist dollar shrink 50%, fuel and operating expenses grow, reduced American tourists due to the dollar, the Michigan economy, and 9/11. Prices have gone up very little since. Expenses to market the company throuhg sports shows, etc. And still, $6,000 plus / mon for 6 mon, UI for 6 months ($10K) a little cash work and voila...$55 - $60K+ per year. Forgot to include the free $4,000 a week fishing and or hunting included. This all with a CPL.
Hey, the King Air business( a generic term for all the 8,000 - 12,500 lb planes)business is booming. Medevacs (gov't payed) small commuters (some native owned and financed) are all dying for pilots with time. Piss away $10,000, get a MIFR, get your ATPL, and you can make lots of money. Fuel prices have gone up, the gov't is still subsidising the business either through flying gov't people around or paying the medevac. The economy is well supported.
Now I am treated no better than a trained monkey. If I didn't work 14 hr day, the boss is pissed. I make half the wage. 6 - 8 mon upgrade to cptn?? Did we tell you that? Gee not in writing. WTF. Lies, bs promises, bonds, loans, wannabes (never heard the term in floats). This part of the aviation industry is a disgrace. I've said it before, companies lie to pilots, pilots lie to business. (not everyone, before some people get all excited). Either the employers don't know how to price themselves properly to make a decent prifit, or they are making huge profits at someone's expense. Hey we can't charge anymore, people will stop flying.
Yeh right. People will start driving from Vancouver to Toronto. People on reserves will walk from Pickle Lake to Sandy lake. Shit, Vancouver to Sudbury $385 one way. I can't drive from Sudbury to Toronto and return on that. What percentage of operating costs are wages.
Economics is simply supply and demand. Over supply of pilots who will do anything the employer demands!!
Get me through the next 8 months. If I can't find a decent company by then, you guys can have your industry. I just want to fly, be respected and appreciated for taking care of the $multi-million plane, make a wage representative of my skills and responsibilities and be respected. I have no answers, no suggestions, just questions. Is the blame on the employer for under paying the pilot or the pilot for paying to fly.
Minimum wage (a toilet cleaner, a burger flipper, a retail clerk) presently earns $17K per yr. Ont gov't thinks it should be $20K. No skill, no accountability, no responsibility. What does a school teacher, starting out make.
I guess it's true, you can take the pilot out of the bush, but you can't taske the bush out of the pilot.
.
Any answers???
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What little I do know is either not important or I've forgotten it!
Transport Canada's mission statement: We're not happy until you're not happy
The point is, a beginner in the right seat, let's give him enough hours to be competent so we can eliminate that part, gets $10/hr. A senior FO gets $20/hr. What's the difference? In terms of productivity, the beginner is 'producing' the same as the senior guy. In fact, because he has only been there long enough to do his initial, he is actually the best money-maker in the company because he allows full revenue to be earned and he is the smallest overhead!
This is not about knowledge or experience but simply about profits. Don't ever forget that.
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"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
i feel like this post - and the recnet ones with similar themes - are like heroine...none of us want to be heroine addicts but we all keep coming back to read them because were addicted to bitching and telling other people they're wrong. in my opinion (despite all the 'expert' advice, it's all jus opinions) xsbank said it right, it's all about profit. not a lot of industries pay inexperienced people a lot of money. if we compared to kind of money we would like, to what a scientist - for example - might make, that person would need at the least 4 years of school to get a degree, probably some poorly paid co-op, maybe a research assistant position after that, then back for a masters before finally hoping for an ok job somewhere. another few years of experience would likely be required before something really well paying came along - just an example. the only difference between that person and the low time guys looking for jobs is desperation to fly.
now, on another train of thought, maybe it's a bit of a self-fullfilling proficy (sp?) as well. companies figure we just wanna use them as a stepping stone, so they treat us like shit. we get treated like shit so we ditch as soon as possible for bigger and better things. there are some companies out there that treat the pilots well and pay them well and those companies seem to hold onto people longer. Provincial Airlines comes to mind.
I really shouldn't but just can't resist.
