On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

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How do you feel about the foreign pilot issue?

Poll ended at Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:17 pm

It's not an issue for me, leaves me indifferent
5
2%
I am upset against the airlines that make use of them
41
17%
I am upset against Government Agencies that allow this to occur
103
42%
Airlines should be allowed to hire whom they want, Canadian or Foreign
5
2%
I support their use as long as it is in accordance with a fair, 100% reciprocal agreement
80
33%
They promote competition and help provide low fares to the population
2
1%
I want to burn them at the stake or tar and feather them
9
4%
 
Total votes: 245

fasken
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by fasken »

WetJet wrote:
Rogerdodger2 wrote: Why does it matter if this is fasken's first post or 50th?
How funny is it that fasken getting support from another guy who clearly had to make up 2nd account just to hide who is really is too! I'm suprised the mods didn't ban you after your first post. rd2, fasken, you know you are on the wrong side of the foreign pilot issue.The numbers above prove it.
So all you have left it to attack Gilles for his efforts? Weak.
I did not attack Gilles.

I stated that I am for 1:1 reciprocity, how I think it should be calculated and why. For that I have been attacked.

Gilles stated his opinion that wet pilots shouldn't count towards reciprocity. So any pilots working abroad on wet lease and any pilot working in Canada on wet leases don't count towards reciprocity. I think they should. To make my point, I asked Gilles if he then agreed that it would be okay for Sunwing to wet lease out 4 planes in summer and wet lease in 13 in winter.

If you agree with Gilles position on the issue, these pilots don't count towards reciprocity, so this is okay.

I am merely asked Gilles, who has done a tremendous amount of work on this, why he thinks wet pilots shouldn't count? I think they should all count.

I would still like an answer.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

fasken wrote: I am merely asked Gilles, who has done a tremendous amount of work on this, why he thinks wet pilots shouldn't count? I think they should all count.

I would still like an answer.
I already replied, all you need to do is read what I wrote
gilles Hudicourt wrote:The problem in Canada is that because foreign pilots who come on Wet-Leases do not need work permits and don't go through CIC to come to Canada, how can CIC, which administers reciprocity, control the program ? They do not know about the foreign pilots who come here on wet-leases.
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Rogerdodger2
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Rogerdodger2 »

WetJet I have no idea who RD2 is. But I guess I see your point, it is inconceivable that RD2 and I are two different people.
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Gravol
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gravol »

OPEC6-Heavy wrote:Gilles,

Are you kidding me! You think that I'm also posting as "Fasken", that's called paranoia setting in. You need a break Mr Eustache...
Don't you have any respect for someone whose trying to protect pilot jobs here in Canada?
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AsheetMaDraws
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by AsheetMaDraws »

Don't fool yourself, before Sunwing was a thorn in Transat's side
nobody took any notice. While Transat has laid off once again for the second
winter in a row, Sunwing has hired and not laid off, some permanent and some
temporary Canadian pilots.
Still not good enough though, as it's still is a thorn in Transat's side, thus the witch hunt continues.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AsheetMaDraws wrote:Don't fool yourself, before Sunwing was a thorn in Transat's side
nobody took any notice. While Transat has laid off once again for the second
winter in a row, Sunwing has hired and not laid off, some permanent and some
temporary Canadian pilots.
Still not good enough though, as it's still is a thorn in Transat's side, thus the witch hunt continues.
Don't fool yourself in 2010 only about 70 pilots came to Canada under reciprocity. In 2011 it was over 220 and it is Sunwing's own Canadian pilots who rang the alarm bells and informed us about this alarming situation.
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

AsheetMaDraws wrote:Don't fool yourself, before Sunwing was a thorn in Transat's side
nobody took any notice. While Transat has laid off once again for the second
winter in a row, Sunwing has hired and not laid off, some permanent and some
temporary Canadian pilots.
Still not good enough though, as it's still is a thorn in Transat's side, thus the witch hunt continues.

You really don't get it, do you? This isn't an Air Transat thing...
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OPEC6-Heavy
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by OPEC6-Heavy »

Gravol,

I have tons of respect for guys that stick their neck for the good of all Canadian pilots. I'm 100% a Canadian pilot and proud of it. Ive written my own letter and supported various other actions against the over use of European pilots. But I will not let untruths and exaggerations be loosely thrown around so that one company can try and destroy another companies reputation for the sake of self preservation. Leave the company leaning rhetoric out of it and focus in the real issues, Canadian pilots.
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fasken
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by fasken »

Sorry Gilles but I don't understand your logic. I think you are saying that because CIC doesn't know how many wet lease pilots are here means they shouldn't count when looking at reciprocity?

I think they should all count and have a question for you to make my point. Which of these statements do you support?

1. Sunwing could do 4 wet leases in the summer and bring in 13 wet leases in the winter and I would be okay with it because wet lease pilots do not count when looking at reciprocity.

2. Sunwing could do 4 wet leases in the summer and bring in 13 wet leases in the winter and I would NOT be okay with it because wet lease pilots should count when looking at reciprocity. I recognize that more than one government department is involved, so it may be harder to determine, but it is not
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Last edited by fasken on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gravol
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gravol »

OPEC6-Heavy wrote:Gravol,

I have tons of respect for guys that stick their neck for the good of all Canadian pilots. I'm 100% a Canadian pilot and proud of it. Ive written my own letter and supported various other actions against the over use of European pilots. But I will not let untruths and exaggerations be loosely thrown around so that one company can try and destroy another companies reputation for the sake of self preservation. Leave the company leaning rhetoric out of it and focus in the real issues, Canadian pilots.

I can agree with that. Perhaps you and the OP should be discussing the differences via PM or even via phone to keep the basic message (in the eyes of us readers) credible. There doesn't seem to be any consistency. Not meant to be insulting but that's just how I interpret this.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

fasken wrote:Sorry Gilles but I don't understand your logic. I think you are saying that because CIC doesn't know how many wet lease pilots are here means they shouldn't count when looking at reciprocity?

I think they should all count and have a question for you to make my point. Which of these statements do you support?

1. Sunwing could do 4 wet leases in the summer and bring in 13 wet leases in the winter and I would be okay with it because wet lease pilots do not count when looking at reciprocity.

2. Sunwing could do 4 wet leases in the summer and bring in 13 wet leases in the winter and I would NOT be okay with it because wet lease pilots should count when looking at reciprocity. I recognize that more than one government department is involved, so it may be harder to determine, but it is not okay.

Do I come across as stupid to you ?
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fasken
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by fasken »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I didn't contradict myself.

I said that as far as I (me Gilles Hudicourt) am concerned, wet-lease pilots should not count in either direction.
I don't think you are stupid, but your position on the issue of not counting wet lease pilots does come across as stupid to me. Just pointing that out in my question. I see you don't appreciate anyone questioning you.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

fasken wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I didn't contradict myself.

I said that as far as I (me Gilles Hudicourt) am concerned, wet-lease pilots should not count in either direction.
I don't think you are stupid, but your position on the issue of not counting wet lease pilots does come across as stupid to me. Just pointing that out in my question. I see you don't appreciate anyone questioning you.
My position comes across as stupid to you. Let's see if you are capable of understanding logic and reasoning or if you are just attempting to crank me for the sake of it.

Reciprocity was not invented by Sunwing. They found it inside the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations and decided to exploit it.

It's in Division 3 of the those regulations and the title of that section is "Issuance of Work Permits"

You can go see for yourself here:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... .html#h-97

Section 200 talks about work permits in general, and section 203 about the LMOs and section 205 (b) about reciprocity.
205. A work permit may be issued under section 200 to a foreign national who intends to perform work that

(b) would create or maintain reciprocal employment of Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada in other countries;

If you were to go back a few pages and look up Section 186 whose title is "Work Without a Permit", that is how wet-lease pilots are admitted into Canada.
186. A foreign national may work in Canada without a work permit

(s) as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;
Reciprocity is a work permit program and the people who administer it control work permits to foreigners under reciprocity. They have one valve in their hand, all it does is control the number of foreign pilots that come into Canada and its called "reciprocity work permits". When you demonstrate that you sent pilots on reciprocity, they are supposed to open the work permit valve an equal amount. When you don't demonstrate reciprocity they can close the valve and you can then go try to still import the foreign pilots through other sources, which are the LMO, controlled by HRSDC, or the Wet-Leases which are controlled by the CTA. The CIC officer in charge of reciprocity has no say in the pilots that are allowed into Canada though LMOs or through wet-leases, so how can he/she administer and control a reciprocity program that allows pilots into Canada in a manner by-passing him ? There are three valves and all he controls is one of them.

If you fail to demonstrate reciprocity, and CIC turns you down, you can still import foreign pilots through other methods. So how can those other methods be counted in reciprocity ?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/ ... 01-eng.pdf
If evidence of reciprocity is not presented to the satisfaction of the officer, the work permit may be refused, or the applicant may be notified that an LMO must be obtained for further consideration of a work permit.

That is why I claim that wet-lease and LMO pilots do not count in reciprocity. In either direction. Those that count them are being fraudulent.

Did this sound stupid to you or did you understand it ?
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Scuba_Steve »

Mr hunter has already counted Wet Leased pilots in a number of news articles. The problem is he only counts it one way.....so sure lets count the wet leased pilots from Canada this summer and put it up against the number brought in this summer on the 767 program and the 13 737's. What would the ratio be?

And sure, Transat wet leases 330’s overseas, do they bring in any foreign registered aircraft? What would their ratio be?

The whole idea of the reciprocal program is to be labour neutral....which of the two above examples is closer to "labour neutral" ?

Cheers
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fasken
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by fasken »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I didn't contradict myself.

I said that as far as I (me Gilles Hudicourt) am concerned, wet-lease pilots should not count in either direction.
Gilles,

You seem to have lost your way.

It is easy to count how many pilots move in and out of Canada for an airline. You have done so yourself.

From what I understand, the number of pilots that Sunwing has sent to work in Europe in the summer and the number of pilots brought in to Canada are roughly the same. Each year is different, but overall about the same. At the same time, Sunwing has grown their number of Canadian pilots from 45 to 170. 120 of the 170 are Captains. And Sunwing hired and trained 20 seasonal Canadian resident first officers this year. A really good step in the right direction. The last three years Sunwing has brought over more pilots than it sent to Europe, but if the Europeans had been as closed as you want things to be, they would have stopped the Sunwing imbalance in the beginning years and maybe jeopardized 170 Canadian pilot jobs. The Europeans looked at the bigger picture, let Sunwing send pilots to Europe and now it has balanced itself out. This program has clearly benefitted Canadian pilots.

And yet, you take the position that, because the Sunwing pilots work wet in Europe and Sunwing brings over dry pilots to Canada (except for one last year), the Canadian wet pilots don’t count towards reciprocity and there is a huge imbalance. You make up an excuse as to why you take this position, but it is an excuse. Hard to count the number, more than one department involved. Whatever. Makes Sunwing look really bad, even though the numbers of pilots moving back and forth is roughly equal. That seems to be your real agenda, making Sunwing look bad.

I then posed a question to you. “How would you feel if Sunwing did 4 wet leases in Europe and brought 13 wet leases in to Canada” – a theoretical question. You ask me if you come across as stupid to me. You say that because that would obviously not be good for Canadian pilots and I agree. But it goes against your position that wet pilots shouldn’t count. If Sunwing started to do this, you would change your position (as is evident by your rhetorical response) because now a different position on the issue makes Sunwing look bad.

That makes things very clear to me. You will take whatever position makes Sunwing look bad.

This is not about protecting Canadian pilots, it is about Transat versus Sunwing. Full stop.

I notice that you have not made a peep, a tweet, a post or a comment about WestJet’s wet lease program. Why is that I wonder? Because you and your employer don’t care about those wet lease pilots. Even though, I might add, your aircraft would be perfectly suited to do a program to Hawaii from western Canada. But not a peep. Only Sunwing’s foreign pilots matter. Because that is your real agenda.

It appears obvious to me that you are working with your employer, sharing information with them in fact, to discredit Sunwing and spread mis-information. You are good at it too. You have a lot of people buying in to your story. But not everyone.

I believe in 1:1 reciprocity. Strongly. I think that everyone needs to look at the big picture and get their own facts, not just what Gilles feeds you. Because you see, he has an agenda. It is all about him and his friends at Transat.

What if I told you that, since Sunwing started, the number of pilots that Sunwing has sent to Europe in the summer and the number they brought over in the winter was roughly the same (wet, dry or otherwise)?

What if I told you that Sunwing has created 170 new Canadian pilot jobs since it started in 2005?

What if I told you that 30 Sunwing first officers got an upgrade to Captain for this winter?

What if I told you that Sunwing hired and trained (without a bond) 20 seasonal Canadian pilots to operate for them this winter? And was planning on having even more next year?

Answer those four questions and ask yourself if what Sunwing has done is good or bad for Canadian pilots. Everyone except Air Transat pilots, that is.
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60N30W
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by 60N30W »

"It appears obvious to me that you are working with your employer, sharing information with them in fact, to discredit Sunwing and spread mis-information. You are good at it too. You have a lot of people buying in to your story. But not everyone.

I believe in 1:1 reciprocity. Strongly. I think that everyone needs to look at the big picture and get their own facts, not just what Gilles feeds you. Because you see, he has an agenda. It is all about him and his friends at Transat."


Hello Fasken,

From your post it sound like you are "working with your employer" ( your words exactly).. Nothing wrong with that.

Everyone has an agenda, from your post I see you have one too. Not to mention your handle is the street name where headquarters are located for Sunwing, could not be more clear on your agenda!

Regards,

60N30W
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FICU
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by FICU »

You're wasting your breath fasken... you will have to hire more Canadian pilots and lift your requirement for a type rating before you will gain any credibility with Canadian pilots, other then those who are management at your company.

Canjet can follow suit too!
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AsheetMaDraws
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by AsheetMaDraws »

You're wasting your breath fasken... you will have to hire more Canadian pilots and lift your requirement for a type rating before you will gain any credibility with Canadian pilots, other then those who are management at your company.
Hired Canadian pilots in the spring, even upgraded some of them shortly after. Hired in the fall, type rating included, though only temporary but
will more than likely be full time by spring. No lay offs.
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FICU
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by FICU »

AsheetMaDraws wrote:Hired Canadian pilots in the spring, even upgraded some of them shortly after. Hired in the fall, type rating included, though only temporary but
will more than likely be full time by spring. No lay offs.
That's great so what's the excuse to not completely lift the type rating requirement for all hiring and leave the foreign pilots on the other side of the pond?
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Gravol
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Gravol »

FICU wrote:
AsheetMaDraws wrote:Hired Canadian pilots in the spring, even upgraded some of them shortly after. Hired in the fall, type rating included, though only temporary but
will more than likely be full time by spring. No lay offs.
That's great so what's the excuse to not completely lift the type rating requirement for all hiring and leave the foreign pilots on the other side of the pond?
The answer is obvious, and the user will most likely not respond with an honest answer. Regardless of TC and their previous endeavours, we are still allowed to question sunwing based on their practices today. You can attack the individual delivering credible information all you want, it doesn't change the fact that what he is saying is in fact true.
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fasken
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by fasken »

Gravol wrote:
FICU wrote:
AsheetMaDraws wrote:Hired Canadian pilots in the spring, even upgraded some of them shortly after. Hired in the fall, type rating included, though only temporary but
will more than likely be full time by spring. No lay offs.
That's great so what's the excuse to not completely lift the type rating requirement for all hiring and leave the foreign pilots on the other side of the pond?
The answer is obvious, and the user will most likely not respond with an honest answer. Regardless of TC and their previous endeavours, we are still allowed to question sunwing based on their practices today. You can attack the individual delivering credible information all you want, it doesn't change the fact that what he is saying is in fact true.
Did you read my post, or do you just ignore what you don't like to read? From the beginning of Sunwing in 2005 until today, Sunwing has generated more pilot work in Europe for Canadian pilots then they have had foreign pilots working in Canada.
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Last edited by fasken on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
60N30W
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by 60N30W »

Fasken

Sunwing has been keeping European pilots working since 2005. Who knew they had been contributing to European pilot employment for that long! Time sure does fly by...
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Euroview
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by Euroview »

Captain Hudicourt

I have read with interest over the last couple of months these forums and what seems like an almost one Pilot vendetta.

Let me make it clear from the outset, I have nothing to hide, this is my first post on this forum and may well be my only post. I am a Pilot for one of the Airlines that Sunwing currently reciprocates with and engage in flying for Sunwing during the winter months.

I think it's about time that certain posters on here appreciate what is happening from a European Pilot's perspective. There has been a lot of misleading information, the record should be set straight. Please allow me to also state clearly that I believe 1-1 (or within 10% depending on the constraint of business) is the way forward.

Unfortunately Capt Hudicourt I think this has descended into a company argument where frankly the main motive is to derail a very clever business synergy. I may be wrong but surely the main motive here should be about providing work, and thus a living, for Canadian and in our case British Pilots. This is what the current agreement does.

I personally believe it is irrelevant whether the aircraft flown are G Reg or C Reg, to re-iterate, this is about Pilot jobs.

If we take the British agreement, 3 Sunwing Aircraft were utilised the entire summer providing work for those aircraft and Pilots. This equated to approximately 30 Pilots. This year an almost exact number from the British Airline have been detached to Sunwing. I appreciate the Sunwing Pilots are still flying a C Reg aircraft - and the British Pilots will also be flying a C Reg aircraft, however Captain Hudicourt - THIS IS ABOUT PILOTS JOBS, it matters not whether the aircraft being flown are British or Canadian! putting it bluntly for every Canadian Aircraft working for our Airline - that is 18 less jobs for British Pilots. However unlike your almost militant stance, the current reciprocal agreement is generally very well received by our Pilots. We can all see how mutually beneficial the agreement is.

It is worthy of note that the agreement with Sunwing looks set to continue to next summer with the same / increased number of aircraft, thus providing work for at least the same number of Canadians. I fail to see how this is not a reciprocal agreement! It strikes me that you want to have your cake and eat it, you obviously have no objection to Canadians detaching to fly a C Reg aircraft for a 3rd Party airline, but the moment a Pilot from that said airline flies in Canada you consider it unacceptable. It may be an idea to give some thought as to how that may sound to British or other European Pilots.

It may be time to start thinking about this a little more logically and consider other parties involved, comments on this forum such as "just providing work for European Pilots" and the suchlike are not accurate and not fair. I agree 100% with the comments made by Fasken, whether or not the statements come from inside the airline is unknown to me, the facts are true, Sunwing provides stable employment for hundreds of Pilots and more over an employment path with a future. There have been significant numbers of Command upgrades in a short space of time, this is not the case in many European airlines.

Given the logic above I can only draw one conclusion, the motive here is not as you say, your motive appears to be to try to destabilise a very clever and efficient working agreement and ultimately destabilise a good airline and thus the employment of those Pilots to which it contains, notwithstanding those Pilots employed by airlines in Europe that engage in the reciprocal agreements.
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by piloterror »

EDIT by lil

Gilles: pretty much everything Fasken said. EDIT by lil You're playing on the emotions of 703/704 pilots looking to make the next step and can't. I would bet my house on the fact no one would know who you were if it wasn't for the fact that Sunwing keeps taking away your business.

Sunwings going to need wide body's soon. Those 330's of yours are going to look great in orange!
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Re: On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

Post by mbav8r »

Euroview, while I can appreciate your view, it appears as though your airlines agreement with Sunwing may be the only one that is reciprocal. You obviously haven't read everypost because it is extremely obvious the numbers don't add up. How can you more than double you fleet and have more pilots from Europe than Canadian and still claim it's 100 +/- 10%. They would have to send the entire fleet over and still wouldn't be close. So Euroview, I suggest you look around you and maybe ask yourself, would your British pilot friends would be so happy if the situation was reversed.
Let me be clear, I don't work with Gilles, I don't work in 703/704, have no plans on leaving my current employer and I am 110% against this, what did you call it, oh yes, "very clever business synergy"
You know Euroview, you can put a nice dress on a pig and call it something else, at the end of the day, it's still going to roll around in it's own shit!
Piloterror, what do you care, it won't be you flying them anyway, you're a Canadian
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