Spins Video question ?

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PilotDAR
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by PilotDAR »

is there a legitimate reason to expect something unusual at 7 or more?
My experience with national rule making (and I've had some in this realm) is that often a "number" in a standard is a conservative "best guess" by the rule makers. In this case, the CAR 3 and FAR 23 spin standard will be based upon what the FAA decided was needed decades back, and that is frequently based upon an awareness of a prior military specification which was suitable.

As has been said here, and quoted from a POH, there is no value in continuing a spin much past two turns. I have spun dozens of type of planes over the decades, and I have only once spun (a 150 Aerobat) to six turns - just so I knew what it was like. There is zero value, and a lot of risk meddling around at these corners of the aircraft capability. And, it's just really unkind to engines to drag the plane that high at full power, into cooler air, and close the throttle for a prolonged idle power descent.

The point of spin training is to get in, hold the turn needed to stabilize and recognize, then get out neatly. If you've blundered past three turns doing that, something is wrong.

I have always been amused to read the "limitation" of G forces, when most aircraft have zero means to indicate nor record them!
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by cgzro »

I understand the tested up to 6 turns issue, but is that because by that point it has stabilized and doesn't change from that point on (Ie: is 6 different from 7, 8 or 20?) or is there a legitimate reason to expect something unusual at 7 or more?
Fuel moves and changes the polar moment of inertia and you can get bobbing effects that wax and wane. Its also possible for the engine to stop depending on rotation direction and fuel quantity.
All of the above can change the spin characteristics. Another worry is the cold windscreen entering warm moist air as you descend with the resulting humidity forming and partially blocking your vision:)
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Gene Hasenfus
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Gene Hasenfus »

"limitation" of G forces, when most aircraft have zero means to indicate nor record them!
I've always found wrinkles in the skin to be
a pretty reliable indication.

Image

Above is a Hawker, known in the industry as
a pretty delicate aircraft.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by PilotDAR »

I've always found wrinkles in the skin to be
a pretty reliable indication.
Gee, I hope you have 't found that too often, it's a pretty expensive way to gauge your flying technique! Aircraft will wrinkle momentarily as G is pulled, though I've never had the wrinkles stay there myself. I hope you weren't spinning that Hawker when you wrinkled it!
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Gene Hasenfus »

Apparently the delivery pilot spent his trip across
the Gulf of Mexico snap-rolling it, to relieve the
boredom.

Famous incident. I'm a bit puzzled you weren't
aware of it. N167DD.
Hawker 800XP snap rolled 3 to 4 times. Ripples are 1 to 2 inches deep and run almost the entire length of the aircraft on both sides. The fuse windows weren't level anymore when you stood back and looked at them. I heard it torqued so bad that the interior galley drawers and cabinets were jammed and wouldn't open. Don't know if that is true though.

You can see that area just above the wing roots, they are rippled from the leading edge to the trailing edge. I can tell you that where the wings mate to the fuselage, it is like ripple city and the rivets and screws look as if they were riding on waves. In between each window, the same ripples as the other side.

Story:This is what I was told by the people that were there when the plane rolled in. They are employees of the FBO and know the owner and everyone involved.

It came from Mexico back to FXE, the captain that flew it back was a licensed Mexican pilot with no FAA licenses or ratings. The captain was hired as a contract pilot just for this trip. The first officer was from here and he was also just used as a contract pilot to get the plane back here.

When the got back to FXE, where the owner was waiting, of course they flipped out as the plane rolled into parking. The captain or the first officer had no idea of the damage that was caused, and when asked what happened he apparently said he made a hard landing. Yet, the tires and gear were fine. The FAA and insurance had questioned them on what happened and they stuck to their story for 9 days.

Finally, the first officer talked, which was a good decision for him. He said that the Captain wanted to snap roll it, and not aileron roll it, like a Pitts. Supposedly it was done 3 to 4 times. By the time the first officer had talked the captain was back in Mexico.

Not sure what the FAA is going to do with the first officer though. He will probably get a pass, as it is not his fault he was flying with a scum bag Captain.

More to the Story:New pictures and a story update. Spoke with the mechanics working on it today. Still actually not sure id it will fly again, they are still tearing into it. Found out yesterday that the right wing is history, because it is bent beyond repair. You can actually see it up close, where the aluminum is actually stretched and separating at some points.

Story Update:They did roll it 4 times. What caused all the damage was when on the last two rolls, the pilot got scared and cranked the yoke back the other way to the the roll and go back upright. He got about halfway around and got scared then jerked it back really hard, and that is what twisted everything, instead of continuing the roll in the original direction. What is funny is that he got scared on roll 3, then tried again and got scared. So it was severely twisted two times.

The wing is trashed and the wing root is twisted.

Hard to see in the picture, but there is a very obvious wrinkle in the nose cone on the right side. They haven't gotten to that part of the frame yet.

Left side was the worst. The windows may never be perfectly even.

The bottom of the tail cone area had a bend in it and some wrinkles. Empennage may be bent inside also, but they are still checking.

Engines and pylons were ok, but a couple of mounts are being replaced because of the stress. They haven't checked the airframe around the windscreens yet, and that could be a deal breaker.
I understand there were plenty of indications
of the G limit being exceeded.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by PilotDAR »

I had heard of this as internet scuttlebutt some time ago, but never in detail. I shall add it to my file of "they shouldn't have done that". Certainly a good lesson there for those who might be foolishly temped!

Personally, I'm past the point in my flying career where I want to roll planes for no good reason - very certainly someone else's!
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Gene Hasenfus »

Minor detail: Hawker does a very nice (aileron)
roll.

This delivery pilot was practicing snap rolls,
a horse of an entirely different colour.

I somehow doubt that he took the advice in
"Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" and reduced
his Design G limit to 2/3 for the torsional load,
and calculated his snap roll entry speed based
on that reduced Va.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Pop n Fresh »

I wonder how that video with the lady doing 57 or whatever number of 152 spins would be received here?
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by love2fly14 »

The thing about my video, is that the PIC said he was not able to get out of the spin,he quoted "" just rudder did nothing to stop rotation, so after 5 turns had to put it into a spiral to recover (relax back pressure)"

Is this possible ? my instructor says: Power to idle, neutralize ailerons, opposite rudder. This will get you out of a spin. So if the theory is right, it is my believe he was doing something wrong.
Has per how many spins you can do....... I honestly do no see the point. For practice they say 2-3 spins then recover.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Pop n Fresh »

Go back a page here and read the stuff about, "If the wings remain stalled" More importantly for this conversation, if one wing remains stalled. The rudder might not have sufficient authority to counter a spin.

Out of curiosity are you training in a C-150?
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by CFR »

love2fly14 wrote:The thing about my video, is that the PIC said he was not able to get out of the spin,he quoted "" just rudder did nothing to stop rotation, so after 5 turns had to put it into a spiral to recover (relax back pressure)"

Is this possible ? my instructor says: Power to idle, neutralize ailerons, opposite rudder. This will get you out of a spin. So if the theory is right, it is my believe he was doing something wrong.
Has per how many spins you can do....... I honestly do no see the point. For practice they say 2-3 spins then recover.
I have not spun a 150 in some time, but from memory it sure seemed the rotations were a little fast. The video does not show the position of the controls, but it may be that there was some aileron introduced into the equation which can accelerate the spin and make recovery a bit more difficult. It is important to neutralize the the ailerons during the recovery. I suspect that in the extended spin that I had, I had inadvertently put in some aileron.

Here is an interesting confession article on spins. There are a number of sources that state a Cessna will recover on its own if you let go of the controls, but I think pilot involvement is best!

http://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-techniqu ... n-recovery

And here is an interesting study into stall/spin accidents

http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by love2fly14 »

Pop n Fresh wrote:Go back a page here and read the stuff about, "If the wings remain stalled" More importantly for this conversation, if one wing remains stalled. The rudder might not have sufficient authority to counter a spin.

Out of curiosity are you training in a C-150?
No, using a 172.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by PilotDAR »

my instructor says: Power to idle, neutralize ailerons, opposite rudder. This will get you out of a spin.
None of that mentions unstalling the wing. Doing that is of vital importance. You only entered the spin because you were applying pitch up control input (and some yaw). Stop doing that, and probably introduce some purposeful pitch down control, and you're on the way to a spin recovery. Follow the manufacturer's procedures for spin recovery - they're going to say something to the effect of "lower the nose".
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Gene Hasenfus »

Bill Kershner once opined that the best spin
recovery device, would be a powerful spring
with a boxing glove, mounted on the panel,
which was released by an AOA indicator. It
would punch the pilot unconscious and allow
the aircraft to recover itself from the spin.

See Gene Beggs and Eric Mueller.

1) Power Off
2) Rudder Opposite Yaw
3) Let Go Of Stick

#3 is very important but frequently disregarded
by pilots, who don't want the ailerons and
elevator to trail. Instead, they prefer to keep
hauling back, usually with full aileron deflection.

Pilots don't care, but elevator and aileron (which
they frantically use during the spin) take a very
nice, gentle spin and can make it a very nasty one.

Rather than the silly nose up / hoof a rudder entry
for spin training, I tell people to do a loop with a
soft G entry (eg +2.5 instead of +4). Bonus points
for being a little slow on the entry. We run out of
airspeed on the 45 inverted upline, they don't apply
enough right rudder, slipstream contracts, and we
yaw off and enter the prettiest inverted spin you
ever did see. Did that in a PT-22 Ryan once.

I doubt anyone here remembers the Chino PT-22
accident in 1982 that claimed the "two Jims".
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by rxl »

That was my concern at the very beginning of this thread ... there was no mention of the necessity to reduce the angle of attack and get the wing flying again.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Pop n Fresh »

love2fly14 wrote:
No, using a 172.
See, these guys are kind of busy but just different models of Cessnas perform quite differently, oddly the numbers make an even bigger difference.

Most of my time is in the nice tame 172N. One nice thing I have learned from reading the board is the 152 is apparently more difficult to land and spins better, that is to say faster and more violently. I'll defer to those with actual experience on type but I suspect the 150 is closer to the 152 than a 172.

I know the 172 is difficult to get a good spin going. I only did it once in my years of trying and it was an accident after a couple of months off. I was fortunate to be with a good enough instructor that after he finished laughing about it he recovered.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Gene Hasenfus »

reduce the angle of attack
As my father once told me, there is a difference
between scratching your @ss, and tearing yourself
a new one.

For many, many, many aircraft, Beggs/Mueller
works wonderfully, because it stops the pilot from
doing bad things (with elevator and aileron) for a
while, and lets it unspin.

However, there are aircraft (generally low-wing)
which might need a little forward stick after power
off and opposite rudder, to stop the spin ASAP.

Note that above comment about scratching your
@ss, and tearing yourself a new one. Many people
get the "stick forward" religion, and often the cure
is worse than the disease.

It's called "Radius of Gyration". Ever seen a figure
skater, spinning in one place, pull her arms in and
speed up the spin? Conservation of energy means
that as we move mass closer to the center, rotation
must speed up.

And that's what can happen with forward stick in a
spin. Not only do you decrease AOA (and hence
drag) on the wing (a necessary technique for a good
snap roll), by pitching the nose down (in an upright
spin with forward stick, or by pitching the nose down
in an inverted spin with back stick) you are centralizing
mass, and can expect the spin to speed up, or accelerate.

If you really hammer the stick forward fast and
hard enough, you can "cross over" from an upright
spin to an inverted spin. That's really tearing
yourself a new one - unless you have a broken
rudder cable. Miles over the heads of this crowd.

The thing to realize is that spins are a weird little
corner of aviation (aerobatics) that is particularly
badly understood. They are extremely type specific
and loading of the aircraft can have a huge impact.

In fact, you can have two identical-looking (and rigged)
aircraft with identical weight and balance that have
wildly different spin characteristics. One may not even
be recoverable from a spin. The reason for this is
"polar moment of inertia", something understood by
perhaps 0.000001% of all pilots. Integral of radius
squared, dm.

I have resigned myself to the fact that pilots will
never understand even the most basic facts about
spins, and will propogate myth and nonsense forever,
perhaps intentionally.

Here is the best spin recovery placard I have ever
seen, which a student of mine installed on the panel
of his biplane:

Image
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by rxl »

Reducing angle of attack to unstall the wing is nonsense???
There is a big difference between releasing back pressure to get BOTH wings flying again and hammering the stick to the forward stop with such force that you end up with a new a-hole.
As with learning any new skill, proper training is key.

I'm really sorry that we are not at your level of understanding.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Gene Hasenfus wrote:

I have resigned myself to the fact that pilots will
never understand even the most basic facts about
spins, and will propogate myth and nonsense forever,
perhaps intentionally.
FYI it is propagate (ie with an "a") not "propogate"
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by cgzro »

.Reducing angle of attack to unstall the wing is nonsense???
No but the asymetric drag is what creates the rotation and its what you usually need to fix first.

Reducing the angle of attack first or at the same time as rudder can have the effect of increasing the spin rate (lowers drag which raises rate and the nose) also in some aircraft the down elevator can actually blank the rudder! in my aircraft fir example the elevator is a wonderful spin snap speed control. The rotation rates goes from mild to wild in a few inches of forward movement. Its great fun !

Every aircraft is different and things change at different density altitudes and cg ranges too.

The best bet is get some training and follow the POH but if you really get confused let go and pushing opposite (heavy) rudder will work better than thrashing about.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by rxl »

But isn't the asymetric drag caused by the stalled wing?
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by cgzro »

One or both wings can be stalled in a fully developed spin but the rudder is what is causing the difference in AOA and its that difference you want to get rid of. Changing both wings AOA by some same amount has as primary effect to slow down (up elevator) or speed up the rotation (down elevator). Speeding up has another side effect of raising the nose (flattening the spin).

This can easily be demonstrated by an instructor in an appropriate aircraft and is usually included in upset recovery training which I highly recommend every pilot to take periodically.
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by FenderManDan »

Perhaps you will find this video on spin interesting. I am half Slovenian, so a bit biased.

http://youtu.be/9e31q09AksA
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

FenderManDan wrote:Perhaps you will find this video on spin interesting. I am half Slovenian, so a bit biased.

http://youtu.be/9e31q09AksA

Surely this wasn't the spin certification testing right? With 3 POB whom could have been replaced by potato sacks???

All the best,
TPC
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Re: Spins Video question ?

Post by PilotDAR »

Interesting video, it certainly looks like a worthy plane! I'm guessing that's fuel venting from the wingtips during the final few turns? The centrifugal force sent it out to the far ends of the tanks, and out the vents?
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