F-35 looking more like white elephant

[fingersmac]

the way to defend this to pay down national debt so your foreign poilcy is not tied to you enemies wallets

actually i would prefer we bought 250 of them f35's

Bit of a contradiction, no?

[oldncold]

Actually no contridictions the f35 are to be paid for like a car 1fighter jet per month and amortized over 40 yrs . so on a per yr base is about 300mil per yr at todays $$.

national budet is about 200billion I am pretty sure there is ROOM TO CUT IN other areas . oh btw the navy needs new ships too its ironic the enviro crowd wants clean water helathy oceans and more data on sea life all of which the canadain navy could do more to provide but they cant go to sea very often cuz our refuel ships are 50YRS OLD do you drive a 1980 pinto to work every day hmm. we want the can gov't to protect our waters and airspace but won't give the public support to have a nuclear navy that would sve BILLIONS OF TONNES IN GREENHOUSES GASES UNDERSEA CAPABILITY AND BILLIONS MORE IN FOSSIL FUEL PURCHASES. BAD CANADA LEFT WING POLITICANS

[fingersmac]

The contradiction is that you would like us to pay down our national debt yet buy almost four times as many aircraft.

And where exactly is there "room to cut" in the budget? You do realize we are running a deficit right now, no? Total expenditures for this current budget is closer to $300 billion by the way.

[2R]

Does not matter what the weapon system is,if the will to fight is not there......
The country that spends more money than the combined spending of the rest of the planet cannot secure its own borders.
Why?

[Gannet167]

Throughout history, the will to fight has not been there because the capability to fight has.

[cdnpilot77]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/arti ... witterfeed

If this is true, those Sukhoi's are looking better every day

With the joke aside, at what point do we take a step back and say enough is enough, it's too much? Lets look at some other options that may get a few less bells and whistles, but will still do the job 30yrs from now. Much like our CF-18's are doing the job 30yrs later.

OTTAWA—A Conservative plan to purchase a fleet of new fighter jets will cost about $29 billion, almost double what the government has accounted for, says Parliament’s financial watchdog.

In a new report that shoots the Conservative government’s rosiest estimates, Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page said the purchase and maintenance costs for 65 F-35 fighter jets are likely to be some $13 billion more than the government says.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said the controversial plan to acquire the American-made jets without having companies compete for the contract would cost about $16-billion — $9-billion to purchase the jets and another $7 billion to maintain them.

Reports of development difficulties and cost overruns out of Washington have prompted the opposition Liberals to make the fighter jet issue a prominent matter in its election preparation.

Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff says a future Liberal government would scrap the F-35 deal and invite several companies to place bids on the fighter jet project.

Canada’s current fleet of F-18s are reaching the end of their lifespan and will be grounded in 2020. The first F-35 jet is to be delivered in 2016.

MacKay has warned that Canada stands to lose about a billion dollars in economic benefits and spinoffs the fighter jet contract is scrapped.

MacKay also said cancelling the F-35 deal risks leaving the air force with “operational gap” when its current fleet of F-18s are grounded.

He said the $9 billion cost of the aircraft and any other figures were either “made up” or the product of guesswork.

[Rockie]

MacKay has warned that Canada stands to lose about a billion dollars in economic benefits and spinoffs the fighter jet contract is scrapped.

MacKay also said cancelling the F-35 deal risks leaving the air force with “operational gap” when its current fleet of F-18s are grounded.

He said the $9 billion cost of the aircraft and any other figures were either “made up” or the product of guesswork.

Peter MacKay? Oh yes, he's the politician who gave his personal guarantee that the F-35's single engine would never quit. I think I'll place my bet with Kevin Page.

[teacher]

With the joke aside, at what point do we take a step back and say enough is enough, it's too much? Lets look at some other options that may get a few less bells and whistles, but will still do the job 30yrs from now. Much like our CF-18's are doing the job 30yrs later.

When do we realize that anything we purchase to replace the Hornets will cost billions and it's better to get something for those billions rather than buying something cheaper and outdated and have to spend more billions to replace them later.

Don't kid yourselfs, this isn't about getting a better valued plane or taxpayer dollars, this is polaticians trying to get elected, nothing else. The "Fiberals" held a competition a LONG time ago and the F-35 won out.

[ogc]

Kevin Page is just "estimating" as much as everyone else is at the moment.

The point is no one knows what the final price tag will be because the plane isnt ready yet.

When that is done a year or so from now, then I can see why they might want to look at the issue again.

But until then its political posturing plane and simple.

What I am failing to understand though, is how we can have a solid contract without any idea what we will actually be paying for each plane.

[cdnpilot77]

With the joke aside, at what point do we take a step back and say enough is enough, it's too much? Lets look at some other options that may get a few less bells and whistles, but will still do the job 30yrs from now. Much like our CF-18's are doing the job 30yrs later.

When do we realize that anything we purchase to replace the Hornets will cost billions and it's better to get something for those billions rather than buying something cheaper and outdated and have to spend more billions to replace them later.

Nothing will last forever, they will all have to be replaced at somepoint and cost us Billions. I am (as Hedley would say) Right of Atilla the Hun in my political views, but there is a breaking point. I just hope we see the stretch marks before the skin cracks

[teacher]

But the question remains. Do we buy something that will last and be remotely up to date in several decades or buy something older and cheaper but have it technologically be out of date a few years after entering service?

[cdnpilot77]

But the question remains. Do we buy something that will last and be remotely up to date in several decades or buy something older and cheaper but have it technologically be out of date a few years after entering service?

That's the Billion dollar question and one that is way above my pay grade, keeping in mind that a "few years" could be 30. The bigger question is, who is capable of making that decision in a sound manner? Military Leaders? Nope, they want the best and most up to date...of course and why shouldnt they. Government? Nope kickbacks and jobs in their riding dictate those decisions...so who is capable of making the best judgement for our future needs?

[shitdisturber]

But the question remains. Do we buy something that will last and be remotely up to date in several decades or buy something older and cheaper but have it technologically be out of date a few years after entering service?

That's the Billion dollar question and one that is way above my pay grade, keeping in mind that a "few years" could be 30. The bigger question is, who is capable of making that decision in a sound manner? Military Leaders? Nope, they want the best and most up to date...of course and why shouldnt they. Government? Nope kickbacks and jobs in their riding dictate those decisions...so who is capable of making the best judgement for our future needs?

Me. I'm no longer in the military so I can be open minded and even my nearest and dearest concede that I'd make a lousy politician!

[Dash-Ate]

Pilot speaks about controversial aircraft
Maj. William Radiff speaks of accension through ranks
By Dave Flaherty, Lindsay Post Reporter
Posted 6 hours ago


LINDSAY - A former Lindsay resident and fighter pilot for the Canadian Armed Forces believes the new F-35 fighters are the future of protecting this nation by air.

Maj. William Radiff, son of former Lindsay mayor Max Radiff, addressed the Lindsay Probus Club Tuesday morning, speaking about his ascension through the ranks of the Canadian Armed Forces and his involvement in the development of the new F-35 fighter aircraft that is currently being considered by the Canadian government as the replacement for Canada's aging fleet of F-18s.

"Its capability of protecting sovereignty is the most important thing," Radiff said.

As an example to covey the F-35's capabilities, Radiff said if an unidentified ship is on Canadian waters, a F-18 pilot would have to be on the defensive.




http://www.thepost.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3015312

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pilot speaks about controversial aircraft
Maj. William Radiff speaks of accension through ranks
By Dave Flaherty, Lindsay Post Reporter
Posted 6 hours ago


LINDSAY -
"Its capability of protecting sovereignty is the most important thing," Radiff said.

As an example to covey the F-35's capabilities, Radiff said if an unidentified ship is on Canadian waters, a F-18 pilot would have to be on the defensive.

http://www.thepost.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3015312

[frosti]

But the question remains. Do we buy something that will last and be remotely up to date in several decades or buy something older and cheaper but have it technologically be out of date a few years after entering service?

That's the Billion dollar question and one that is way above my pay grade, keeping in mind that a "few years" could be 30. The bigger question is, who is capable of making that decision in a sound manner? Military Leaders? Nope, they want the best and most up to date...of course and why shouldnt they. Government? Nope kickbacks and jobs in their riding dictate those decisions...so who is capable of making the best judgement for our future needs?

There is nothing available ATM that rivals the F-35's technology, price and overall bang for the buck. As already mentioned, a competition would be pointless and costly that would ultimately result in the JSF being the winner. You can argue the Super Hornet, but even Australia acknowledged that they are technologically outdated and only bought them until the JSF was available. Then there is the Eurofighter, that program has become a complete disaster. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

The Liberals are in no position to argue the merit of this purchase. National Defense costs money and buying something just to save a buck now, will cost more...A LOT more in the future on upgrades. With out current CF-18's maintenance is a nightmare, you can't simply jam pack a 30 year old airframe and wiring with new avionics. I look forward to the new F-35, it's about time the fast jet community got new equipment and infrastructure on the bases.

[2R]

Boxcutters in the hands of a dedicated person can be more effective than a squadron of F-35's

Cost of boxcutters $1.99
Cost of new airplanes is 65 billions and climbing
Cost of fearmongering and insecurity is priceless

[Rockie]

The JSF might very well be the only airplane we can get, although the single engine way up north is a major issue despite MacKay's personal guarantee it will never quit. But cost overruns are well known and extreme, and the Conservatives are just making themselves look deceitful and stupid by sticking to their original estimates especially considering the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report.

Kevin Page and Sheila Fraser are the Canadian taxpayers best friends.

[teacher]

Boxcutters in the hands of a dedicated person can be more effective than a squadron of F-35's

Cost of boxcutters $1.99
Cost of new airplanes is 65 billions and climbing
Cost of fearmongering and insecurity is priceless

How will boxcutters enforce a UN sanctioned NATO actioned no fly zone? How will boxcutters enforce national sovereignty over our country's borders? How will boxcutters super ground troops in a high threat environment? Do we just assume these things will never happen?

Fact is just like the EH101 disaster the same aircraft will be chosen unless the govornment "adjusts" the requirements to have another airframe selected. Removing requirements and adding "lowest cost" like the Liberals did and recently the US govornment would do the trick.

[2R]

If the decison is already made then there is no point in discussing it.
Might as well close Parliament while we are at it as well ,If the people who are elected have no input to the decision process then we might as well close it down and hand over the reigns of power to those who are making these decisions behind closed doors.
It would appear that the fears expressed by those who opposed the CF-18 have come true.
Some of the comments i heard at the factory in Toronto the day they held a celebration of the introduction of the CF-18 at the same factory that made the Avro Arrow have indeed come true.
They will sell us only the weapons we are allowed to own not what we are capable of building.We might as well close all the engineering departments at all the universities and convert them into basket weaving and flower arranging community schools .
As for "how" could boxcutters be used to prevent further terrorist attacks.All i can say is think about it for a couple of minutes.If i can see how easy it is i am sure someone as smart as you can see it as well.
Hint: anyone know where Atta's family is living todayor any of the other nineteen saudi hi-jackers families are living.

[Expat]

Like I said before, during my service time, we used dutch radars, italian guns, belgium rifles with canadian bullets, canadian Sonars, german jeeps, etc... They were bought competitively, and did the job. But we also bought f*cg AMC Gremlin staff cars! They did not do the job!!! What a joke, at a time when even corporals were driving new Volvos they acquired overseas!
This was also the time the military budget was slashed the most, and the time life in Canada was the best.
Life in the military was also a lot better. We smoked cigars at mess diners, and enjoyed life!

[Expat]

Does not matter what the weapon system is,if the will to fight is not there......
The country that spends more money than the combined spending of the rest of the planet cannot secure its own borders.
Why?

On defense...

[frosti]

They will sell us only the weapons we are allowed to own not what we are capable of building.

Canada is not capable of building a modern 5th generation fighter.

although the single engine way up north is a major issue

Oh its a huge issue! So big that pilots in the CF are refusing to fly it.

[bizjets101]

All F-35's are currently grounded due to an in-flight failure in test aircraft.

Flight Global News

[2R]

They will sell us only the weapons we are allowed to own not what we are capable of building.

Canada is not capable of building a modern 5th generation fighter.

I was at the factory the day McDonnel Douglas introduced the CF-18.Some of the old boys said that it would end any Canadian capabilty for Canada to build something better than anyone else.The same old boys who showed me the Avro Arrow plans that the government told them to destroy.History has proven them to be correct in their assesment of the extent of the sell out of Canadian defense ability when the secrets where sold to part of the American industrial military complex.
I would say that some of those guys (if they are still alive) could probably build the next generation fighter in their basement.They where pretty smart fellas and a lot of fun to talk with .One of them worked on the Avro Flying car looked liked a flying saucer.They called a flying car for some reason and took it away to somewhere down south.
Far away from Q building.