ACPA Implodes !

[chatman]

How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.

Here is the ramps CA. The pages you're looking for are numbers 101 & 102. You can see for yourself what Ramp makes (Leads top out at ~$50K, S/As at ~$46K (after nine years)). To put that in perspective, a nine year S/A makes the same as a 3rd year Embraer F/O (going by the rates on willflyforfood.com).

If they're making as much as "the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft" (and I'm assuming you're talking about your top rate guys), it's because, as I've mentioned before, they're racking up a ton of overtime/shift trades - basically spending most of their lives working. I have to ask, why is that an issue? They're willing to sacrifice their bodies/lives to make good coin - that's their decision.

If you want to check out the responsibilities that we undertake, check out Pubs 70 & 173 (not sure you'll be able to access them) on the employee website.

This is from the CA for a lead SA,$26.06 per hour.
You can not even compare an SA to the F/O. You say it takes 9 years to get to your wage, it takes probably close to that of flying just to get hired at AC or any other heavy transport airline, if not more, there is also the prerequisites to be able to be considered, I.E your transport rating and all the exams needed to reach this level.
The same applies to the AME, it is about 8 years to get the AME, school, experience, writing exams!

AC usually starts them at over 12-15 an hour so it then would take less time to reach 26.06 an hour.

[FICU]

Here's an idea. How about when an airplane turns onto the yellow line there is a marshaller standing there with his wands up in the air ready to park the airplane?

Contract all ramp services out and you won't have those inefficiencies because they won't want to lose the contract. We use contracted ramp services and never have to wait to be marshalled in.

[chatman]

Here's an idea. How about when an airplane turns onto the yellow line there is a marshaller standing there with his wands up in the air ready to park the airplane?

Contract all ramp services out and you won't have those inefficiencies because they won't want to lose the contract. We use contracted ramp services and never have to wait to be marshalled in.

They are too busy watching TV on there couch.

[Localizer]

Keep in mind the pilot keeps going up from there. The lead stops at that point. $26.06 isn't that unreasonable for an experienced lead. Not to mention they aren't doing Tim Hortons level simple jobs. Take De-Icing for example. Do you really want some kid making $10 an hour who really doesn't care what happens to be spraying your plane? Or look at stacking bags into baggage compartments. I've seen experienced guys fit 80 bags into a pit that inexperienced guys only managed to fit 60 into. Is getting passengers bags to them a priority? It does pay to have experienced guys around in every proffession in the company.

I'm sorry .. but yes .. they are doing Tim Horton's level jobs. You pick the bag up and you put it down, you do simple math to make sure you're not exceeding the max compartment weight. YYZ has an APIS system .. so you don't even marshall anymore. A guy deicing an airplane at $10 or $26 will still point the nozzle in the same direction.

There are two people who hold all the responsibility of that aircraft on their shoulders. They're also responsible for the actions of the ramp, flight attendants, and agents.

[invertedattitude]

Someone who thinks a pilot has any real control or even ever checks if his aircraft is deiced properly has no idea of how it really works.

If that guy making $26 or $10 forgets to verify the fluid is to temp, or forgets to spray one side of the airplane (it's happened) people can die... And have died from improper deice methods...

Sure loading bags is monkey work, but please don't make light of deicing practices, you make yourself look bad.

[Takeoff OK]

Here's an idea. How about when an airplane turns onto the yellow line there is a marshaller standing there with his wands up in the air ready to park the airplane?

Contract all ramp services out and you won't have those inefficiencies because they won't want to lose the contract. We use contracted ramp services and never have to wait to be marshalled in.

Bullshit.

[Takeoff OK]

Someone who thinks a pilot has any real control or even ever checks if his aircraft is deiced properly has no idea of how it really works.

If that guy making $26 or $10 forgets to verify the fluid is to temp, or forgets to spray one side of the airplane (it's happened) people can die... And have died from improper deice methods...

Spot on.

[fly4ever]

And here we go, round, round and round again!
Pilots putting everyone else in this industry down, for what?
Wonder why there is 0 respect for this industry today.
There is no I in Team!
There are some pilots that always put everyone else in this industry down when they are feeling cornered by management.
Sad really, that is not leadership, or actions that gain respect, maybe that is part of the problem.
They really are only lowering the bar more with statements that put other employees down.
And then the industry goes further in the one direction that we do not want it to go, DOWN!

[Rockie]

Here's an idea. How about when an airplane turns onto the yellow line there is a marshaller standing there with his wands up in the air ready to park the airplane?

Contract all ramp services out and you won't have those inefficiencies because they won't want to lose the contract. We use contracted ramp services and never have to wait to be marshalled in.

Bullshit.

Just to be clear, the consistent failure to have a marshaller ready to park an airplane is a failure of management. True, the guys on the ground could shake a leg a little when they see an airplane standing still with engines running waiting for them. But it is management's job to make sure that crew is there five minutes early so that doesn't happen.

[DrBoeing]

Someone who thinks a pilot has any real control or even ever checks if his aircraft is deiced properly has no idea of how it really works.

If that guy making $26 or $10 forgets to verify the fluid is to temp, or forgets to spray one side of the airplane (it's happened) people can die... And have died from improper deice methods...

Spot on.

FYI, Airport authorities are slowly but surely taking over deicing.YYZ does it YOW now does it and I think YVR does it.

[yyz monkey]

AC usually starts them at over 12-15 an hour so it then would take less time to reach 26.06 an hour.

Clearly you didn't read the contract. P/T & F/T SAs start at $9.09/hr and don't make $15 until year five.

Just to be clear, the consistent failure to have a marshaller ready to park an airplane is a failure of management. True, the guys on the ground could shake a leg a little when they see an airplane standing still with engines running waiting for them. But it is management's job to make sure that crew is there five minutes early so that doesn't happen.

Given that management has been giving out LOAs and ROs for the past year, taking bodies off the ramp, how would you propose we "shake a leg" when we're understaffed as we are? We're already being run ragged out there.

I'm sorry .. but yes .. they are doing Tim Horton's level jobs.

I didn't know Tim Horton's required their employees to receive Dangerous Goods training. Guess we know what goes in the cream filling of those donuts now.

[c170b53]

Trying to manage the numbers, run lean at work then add part timers, add in arrival / departure delays means guys find it hard to be in two places at the same time. Easy fix, have maintenance arrive the aircraft if bags is tied up. Problem implementing the easy fix; baggage management thinks this is specialized work and is dead set against it.(Yep that's the quality your dealing with)The ground crews are also concerned about losing turf. The reality is, maintenance used to perform all aircraft movements and were replaced by ground crews to save money, its something that's unlikely to be reversed. So basically Rockie you're right.

[Morry Bund]

As far as I can tell, nobody yet has drawn a parallel between the issues here at ACPA and the issues in the federal political scene, especially with the “natural governing party,” the Liberals. ACPA was formed as a re-make of the original Association that represented the broad general interests of only the Air Canada pilots. When those interests were threatened by outside forces, under CALPA, the pilots unceremoniously dumped their former union and moved on to maintain their own strict identity, based on the identified common interest.

Recently, there is no identified common interest, as I see it. Rather, there are many conflicting interests. You name them. From the seniority integration issue (yes, it is still there) to the steep income progression curve, to the Position Group, to the external threats to our scope, to the age limitation issues. There are many more. But what is missing from all of this is any sort of strategic view and coordinated attempt to determine our own direction and destiny.

We don’t just need a leader (or a group of leaders), we need an identity. We need a group of leaders who can break the fragmentation, alienation, distrust and self-destruction, and unite us in a common goal—to identify, to carve out, to establish and to solidify our mutual interests in a cohesive, rather than divisive, set of actions.

Like the federal Liberals, we have an interim leader who has no authority, given the recent impeachment of several of his component Executive Members, to do anything or go anywhere.

May I respectfully suggest that very, very soon, perhaps right after the disclosure of the TA Vote result, that we open the door to a series of frank, open base meetings and roundtable discussions about everything that ails us, and what we need to do to fix it. Now more than ever, we need to work together, for the sake of our own survival.

We all know that the impending failure of the TA is going to present more problems than opportunities. But we can profit from those problems, by revisiting a number of core questions. Who are we? What do we want? What do we need? And how do we, together, reconcile our differences, accept our peers' needs and achieve those outcomes? Let us start by going back to the very basics. By building. Building an organization, From the Ground Up. That represents all of us.

[vortac]

Thats all sounds nice but you've already let the virus that is Sky Regional in. There is not turning back now. I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

My question is, exactly how do you expect to justify your Airbus 320 140K a Captains and 100K a year FOs when you have pilots flying Air Canada's passengers flying 72 seat Q400s being paid peanuts, working 18 days a month, 8 legs days, 4hr daily min credits, no pension, etc. ????

[duranium]

How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.

Said ( wrote ) just about the same thing on an other tread , T/A vote, but yours has not illicited the mud slinging that my comments did, but yours says the same in other words. How about it YYZ Monkey, care to comment or you just take aim at those you are sure are not on your premises. Also waiting for comments from The Suit. Could this be some sort of '' different yardstick '' usage.

[DrBoeing]

I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

With absolutely no sarcasm intended, where is it listed that Pilots are a professional occupation? Again, I am not being sarcastic. If there is documentation showing pilots as a professional group I would really like to have it. I am an AME and we recently approached the CIRB with the notion that we are a professional group, the CIRB said that because we as AME's are not required to have a university post secondary education, we can not be considered a professional group.

[Thirteentennorth]

Thats all sounds nice but you've already let the virus that is Sky Regional in. There is not turning back now. I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

My question is, exactly how do you expect to justify your Airbus 320 140K a Captains and 100K a year FOs when you have pilots flying Air Canada's passengers flying 72 seat Q400s being paid peanuts, working 18 days a month, 8 legs days, 4hr daily min credits, no pension, etc. ????

Especially when you supposedly have retired Air Canada pilots, who are drawing full pensions from AC, flying for Sky Regional. I heard this, don't know if it is true but, if it is, it's enough to make ya gag!

[Thirteentennorth]

I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

With absolutely no sarcasm intended, where is it listed that Pilots are a professional occupation? Again, I am not being sarcastic. If there is documentation showing pilots as a professional group I would really like to have it. I am an AME and we recently approached the CIRB with the notion that we are a professional group, the CIRB said that because we as AME's are not required to have a university post secondary education, we can not be considered a professional group.

Dr. Boeing, I speak under correction, but I believe that any position that requires its practitioners to have licenses to carry out their duties, can be considered a 'professional' position. AME's require it, pilots require it, doctors and nurses require it, electricians and other trades require it. In the aviation profession, it has always been accepted practice that a professional pilot's license is the aviation equivalent of a post-secondary educational certificate [degree]. The requirements for the issuance of an ATPL or AME are particularly stringent. And both licenses require recurrent training. The CIRB is blowing smoke out of their anatomically-unmentionable. I believe that this is one that could be easily challenged. Go for it!

[Lost in Saigon]

Thats all sounds nice but you've already let the virus that is Sky Regional in. There is not turning back now. I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

My question is, exactly how do you expect to justify your Airbus 320 140K a Captains and 100K a year FOs when you have pilots flying Air Canada's passengers flying 72 seat Q400s being paid peanuts, working 18 days a month, 8 legs days, 4hr daily min credits, no pension, etc. ????

Especially when you supposedly have retired Air Canada pilots, who are drawing full pensions from AC, flying for Sky Regional. I heard this, don't know if it is true but, if it is, it's enough to make ya gag!

Why do you have a problem with retired pilots working? Should we lock them up in a retirement home? Maybe we should turn them into Soylent Green?

[DrBoeing]

I would have thought that a 'unionized' group of professionals would have thought that one through better.

With absolutely no sarcasm intended, where is it listed that Pilots are a professional occupation? Again, I am not being sarcastic. If there is documentation showing pilots as a professional group I would really like to have it. I am an AME and we recently approached the CIRB with the notion that we are a professional group, the CIRB said that because we as AME's are not required to have a university post secondary education, we can not be considered a professional group.

Dr. Boeing, I speak under correction, but I believe that any position that requires its practitioners to have licenses to carry out their duties, can be considered a 'professional' position. AME's require it, pilots require it, doctors and nurses require it, electricians and other trades require it. In the aviation profession, it has always been accepted practice that a professional pilot's license is the aviation equivalent of a post-secondary educational certificate [degree]. The requirements for the issuance of an ATPL or AME are particularly stringent. And both licenses require recurrent training. The CIRB is blowing smoke out of their anatomically-unmentionable. I believe that this is one that could be easily challenged. Go for it!

The decision is going to be challenged, but i want to have all my ducks in a row prior, that is why if I can find documentation to support my case, it would help greatly.

[Marinth]

Keep in mind the pilot keeps going up from there. The lead stops at that point. $26.06 isn't that unreasonable for an experienced lead. Not to mention they aren't doing Tim Hortons level simple jobs. Take De-Icing for example. Do you really want some kid making $10 an hour who really doesn't care what happens to be spraying your plane? Or look at stacking bags into baggage compartments. I've seen experienced guys fit 80 bags into a pit that inexperienced guys only managed to fit 60 into. Is getting passengers bags to them a priority? It does pay to have experienced guys around in every proffession in the company.

I'm sorry .. but yes .. they are doing Tim Horton's level jobs. You pick the bag up and you put it down, you do simple math to make sure you're not exceeding the max compartment weight. YYZ has an APIS system .. so you don't even marshall anymore. A guy deicing an airplane at $10 or $26 will still point the nozzle in the same direction.

There are two people who hold all the responsibility of that aircraft on their shoulders. They're also responsible for the actions of the ramp, flight attendants, and agents.

And you stare at a computer screen while the plane flies itself(if you aren't napping).

[Rockie]

How does denigrating each other's jobs help improve anybody's situation? Every employee group is responsible for negotiating their own contract, and I suggest efforts would be better spent in that pursuit than arguing about who has the more important job.


Who is the Boss?

When God made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be boss. The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss. The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss. The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss. The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss.
Then the asshole applied for the job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up. After a few days… The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…Just an Asshole.

[DrBoeing]

How does denigrating each other's jobs help improve anybody's situation? Every employee group is responsible for negotiating their own contract [/i]

I disagree, we in maintenance are tied in with the airports group and because they out number us, are concerns are never addressed with out a huge internal fight such as what is going on now! The two groups need to be split apart.

[Rockie]

Then split apart, but keep it behind closed doors.

Publicly denigrating each other's jobs serves no one and makes everyone look bad.

[Thirteentennorth]

Why do you have a problem with retired pilots working? Should we lock them up in a retirement home? Maybe we sould turn them into Soylent Green?

LIS, I wonder if you would be even asking that question if you had a son, or daughter, who was trying to get their first flying job and found their way blocked by double-dipping, retired AC captains?