May 1 startup day Air Georgian

[Inverted2]

(who cares - I aint here for the long run)

I guess that line sums it all up ... shit on those that are, it pretty much feels like being back in the bush ... you'd fly for free just to be the Captain .. barf!

Don't take this poster too seriously. They joined less than a week ago. Looks like GGN management trying to prop the company up.

[avpride]

(who cares - I aint here for the long run)

I guess that line sums it all up ... shit on those that are, it pretty much feels like being back in the bush ... you'd fly for free just to be the Captain .. barf!

Don't take this poster too seriously. They joined less than a week ago. Looks like GGN management trying to prop the company up.

From a couple of Jazz FO's _______ wow awesome

[avpride]

(who cares - I aint here for the long run)

I guess that line sums it all up ... shit on those that are, it pretty much feels like being back in the bush ... you'd fly for free just to be the Captain .. barf!

OK FO good one hahaha

Listen guys I know why you need to make GGN and Sky look bad. Good luck at Jazz See who made the better choice in 2020

[rudder]

Apparently GGN management have nicknamed their new operation "Jazz killer".

Pretty classy.

[Inverted2]

"If I had my choice I would have no union but from what I can see ALPA has made things far worse for Jazz not better."

Actually ALPA got Jazz pilots an industry leading contract. If it were not for ALPA/Jazz setting the bar high, GGN would likely pay you a lot less. And what has your "OREA" done? Sounds like your recent association leader threw you guys under the bus.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I'm proud to work at Jazz as an F/O and I'm lucky that I don't have to work at GGN with this joker who cares only about getting that left seat. This guy has a bad case of Captainitis.

And for bragging that he/she makes 70-80K in the left seat, I'm only 2.5 years in at Jazz and make about $65,000 before overtime. And I can say that I didn't sell my soul or sell out my profession to get to where I am. I can look in the mirror and be proud of the uniform I wear and of the Jazz pilots that came before me to make it an excellent place to work. I can nod or say hello to an Air Canada pilot who passes me by because even though our two groups at times may not like each other, we still respect each other and take pride in each other's profession and what we've achieved for aviation in Canada. I hate to break it to Avpride, but I have a lot of friends at Jazz, AC, WJ and elsewhere, and no one respects what GGN has become. No one has dreams of going to GGN. It is just an end to justify your own self-righteous goals.

I guess all I'm saying is that while they say "don't hate the player, hate the game," you're making it easy for pilots in Canada to do both in this case.

[rxl]

"If I had my choice I would have no union but from what I can see ALPA has made things far worse for Jazz not better."

Actually ALPA got Jazz pilots an industry leading contract. If it were not for ALPA/Jazz setting the bar high, GGN would likely pay you a lot less. And what has your "OREA" done? Sounds like your recent association leader threw you guys under the bus.

Hi Inverted2,

I agree wholeheartedly with 99.99% of what you wrote here.
The bottom line to it all being that without the Jazz collective agreement, the GGN WAWCON would be a lot worse.

I would say however that it was the Jazz pilot group who are all members of ALPA that acheived an industry leading contract not the other way around. Using your membership dues, ALPA simply provides a framework and great resources. A union is nothing without it's members.

The Ontario Regional Employees Association on the other hand should be in front of the CIRB right now answering to a duty of fair representation complaint from it's pilot membership over this 705 LOU fiasco.

[Stinky]

I'm only 2.5 years in at Jazz and make about $65,000 before overtime. And I can say that I didn't sell my soul or sell out my profession to get to where I am. I can look in the mirror and be proud of the uniform I wear and of the Jazz pilots that came before me to make it an excellent place to work.

It's only been 2.5 years, your attitude might change when you're looking in that mirror and seeing yourself age while your career and paycheque stay the same. I'll be interested to see your opinion in another 7 or 8 years when you're still making $65,000 and are no closer to a left seat. Having the parking brake set on your career year after year begins to wear on you.

[avpride]

I'm proud to work at Jazz as an F/O and I'm lucky that I don't have to work at GGN with this joker who cares only about getting that left seat. This guy has a bad case of Captainitis.

And for bragging that he/she makes 70-80K in the left seat, I'm only 2.5 years in at Jazz and make about $65,000 before overtime. And I can say that I didn't sell my soul or sell out my profession to get to where I am. I can look in the mirror and be proud of the uniform I wear and of the Jazz pilots that came before me to make it an excellent place to work. I can nod or say hello to an Air Canada pilot who passes me by because even though our two groups at times may not like each other, we still respect each other and take pride in each other's profession and what we've achieved for aviation in Canada. I hate to break it to Avpride, but I have a lot of friends at Jazz, AC, WJ and elsewhere, and no one respects what GGN has become. No one has dreams of going to GGN. It is just an end to justify your own self-righteous goals.

I guess all I'm saying is that while they say "don't hate the player, hate the game," you're making it easy for pilots in Canada to do both in this case.

If that floats your boat then keep with it. I look at it differently and I think my family is happy I do. I will make 140 - 180 k more than you if we both stay with our current employers for your 7 year sentence as an FO. It will take you another 9 years to catch up. Now we all know neither of us will be at Jazz or GGN I assume we will both have better opportunities presented to us in time. I think a few thousand hours jet PIC will be better than Dash 8 100 FO AND I'll make 140K more doing it. Look at it as a job not as FO or Capt. I get paid more and get better experience than while doing my job - being a pilot. That is not captinitis.

I really doubt that you had dreams of growing up and being a Jazz FO. Maybe you did. Isn't it GGN that is doing a cadet program with AC basically hiring AC pilots? I don't think any pilot group in Canada has a lack of respect for GGN other than a few Jazz pilots. BTW - we all wear the same uniform!

We the pilots of Sky, GGN and Encore and now Rouge know why you need to talk bad about us. We get it, it is OK, it makes you feel better. Remember when the Jazz guys all called the first west jet guys crazy, too funny when you look back --- start looking ahead!

[rocket81]

If that floats your boat then keep with it. I look at it differently and I think my family is happy I do. I will make 140 - 180 k more than you if we both stay with our current employers for your 7 year sentence as an FO. It will take you another 9 years to catch up. Now we all know neither of us will be at Jazz or GGN I assume we will both have better opportunities presented to us in time. I think a few thousand hours jet PIC will be better than Dash 8 100 FO AND I'll make 140K more doing it. Look at it as a job not as FO or Capt. I get paid more and get better experience than while doing my job - being a pilot. That is not captinitis.

I really doubt that you had dreams of growing up and being a Jazz FO. Maybe you did. Isn't it GGN that is doing a cadet program with AC basically hiring AC pilots? I don't think any pilot group in Canada has a lack of respect for GGN other than a few Jazz pilots. BTW - we all wear the same uniform!

We the pilots of Sky, GGN and Encore and now Rouge know why you need to talk bad about us. We get it, it is OK, it makes you feel better. Remember when the Jazz guys all called the first west jet guys crazy, too funny when you look back --- start looking ahead!

It's not only about wages, work conditions matter, I don't think GGN can be compared to Jazz in that matter. Jazz you can make a career, seems to me GGN is just an other transit company you want to pass by AFAP.

[avpride]

If that floats your boat then keep with it. I look at it differently and I think my family is happy I do. I will make 140 - 180 k more than you if we both stay with our current employers for your 7 year sentence as an FO. It will take you another 9 years to catch up. Now we all know neither of us will be at Jazz or GGN I assume we will both have better opportunities presented to us in time. I think a few thousand hours jet PIC will be better than Dash 8 100 FO AND I'll make 140K more doing it. Look at it as a job not as FO or Capt. I get paid more and get better experience than while doing my job - being a pilot. That is not captinitis.

I really doubt that you had dreams of growing up and being a Jazz FO. Maybe you did. Isn't it GGN that is doing a cadet program with AC basically hiring AC pilots? I don't think any pilot group in Canada has a lack of respect for GGN other than a few Jazz pilots. BTW - we all wear the same uniform!

We the pilots of Sky, GGN and Encore and now Rouge know why you need to talk bad about us. We get it, it is OK, it makes you feel better. Remember when the Jazz guys all called the first west jet guys crazy, too funny when you look back --- start looking ahead!

It's not only about wages, work conditions matter, I don't think GGN can be compared to Jazz in that matter. Jazz you can make a career, seems to me GGN is just an other transit company you want to pass by AFAP.

Sure conditions in general are better at Jazz - no doubt BUT in my case I would need to commute so for me conditions at GGN are better. Only 10 GDO's but each month I get OT at that so I can only assume they will increase GDO's so they dont have to pay OT. If it stays like it is I will make about 83K first year plus perdirems either way a win.

If you want to make Jazz a "career" then that is cool, nothing wrong with that at all. I don't want to stop reaching when I top out at Dash 8-100 or CRA, sorry - not for me. That is if you ignore 2020 and that Sky, GGN, Encore, Rouge are all growing, getting in on the ground floor (exclude Rouge) is a good thing. Again this was all said about West Jet back in the day. Lots of old Jazz guys got left in the dust back then. Sorry 7 years as a Dash FO the loss of 140K, a contract that ends in2020 I just don't see it. To each his own, good luck.

[rxl]

Avpride,

Something to think about is the distinct possibilty that your current WAWCON may just be as good as it's going to get.

What if "The Call" never comes? - and believe me I sincerely hope that it does for you - but remember that there are lot's of exceptionally talented people working in our industry for whom that call never came, or for whatever reason it didn't work out and they have made for themselves great careers at Jazz.
No sour grapes, it's simply the reality of the situation.

As pilots we all need to do what we can to - at the very least - maintain the standard for everyone.

Your postings seem, unfortunately, to epitomize the "every man for himself" attitude that can only serve to aid the airline MBA's in further degrading our WAWCON's and lining their own pockets.

Good Luck and Respect,
rxl

[avpride]

Avpride,

Something to think about is the distinct possibilty that your current WAWCON may just be as good as it's going to get.

What if "The Call" never comes? - and believe me I sincerely hope that it does for you - but remember that there are lot's of exceptionally talented people working in our industry for whom that call never came, or for whatever reason it didn't work out and they have made for themselves great careers at Jazz.
No sour grapes, it's simply the reality of the situation.

As pilots we all need to do what we can to - at the very least - maintain the standard for everyone.

Your postings seem, unfortunately, to epitomize the "every man for himself" attitude that can only serve to aid the airline MBA's in further degrading our WAWCON's and lining their own pockets.

Good Luck and Respect,
rxl

Just because you take a job with no movement does not mean you are fighting the good fight. You are just a guy who is hedging his bets that he will not reach his goals. 7 year as an FO does nothing for our industry. If ALPA did a better job in 2010 you would be a Capt by now - that would be making aviation better. It is Jazz that caused diversification not he companies that got the contracts through competitive RFP's. Don't go saying Jazz is any better than GGN Sky or Encore.

If the call never comes that is fine I gave it a shot and didn't settle. I will go back to flying corp jets or stay at GGN. The training Capts and other duty holders actually get paid very well, I doubt the 7 years as Jazz FO will ever catch up from a cash perspective to a direct entry Capt and AGL. Further the corp jet guys at GGN are making really really good money so there is alos that option.

[rxl]

Avpride,

Something to think about is the distinct possibilty that your current WAWCON may just be as good as it's going to get.

What if "The Call" never comes? - and believe me I sincerely hope that it does for you - but remember that there are lot's of exceptionally talented people working in our industry for whom that call never came, or for whatever reason it didn't work out and they have made for themselves great careers at Jazz.
No sour grapes, it's simply the reality of the situation.

As pilots we all need to do what we can to - at the very least - maintain the standard for everyone.

Your postings seem, unfortunately, to epitomize the "every man for himself" attitude that can only serve to aid the airline MBA's in further degrading our WAWCON's and lining their own pockets.

Good Luck and Respect,
rxl

Just because you take a job with no movement does not mean you are fighting the good fight. You are just a guy who is hedging his bets that he will not reach his goals. 7 year as an FO does nothing for our industry. If ALPA did a better job in 2010 you would be a Capt by now - that would be making aviation better. It is Jazz that caused diversification not he companies that got the contracts through competitive RFP's. Don't go saying Jazz is any better than GGN Sky or Encore.

If the call never comes that is fine I gave it a shot and didn't settle. I will go back to flying corp jets or stay at GGN. The training Capts and other duty holders actually get paid very well, I doubt the 7 years as Jazz FO will ever catch up from a cash perspective to a direct entry Capt and AGL. Further the corp jet guys at GGN are making really really good money so there is alos that option.

First of all, there has been plenty of movement at Jazz over the years and if having been on strike 3 times in the last 27 years to acheive good WAWCON is not the "good fight", well then I don't know what is. You, my friend are benefitting right now from that "good fight".

Aviation has always been cyclical in nature which is precisely why it's so important to have a strong collective agreement in place. Our collective agreement has been a benefit to everyone including the 7 year FO's for whom you seem to have such disdain. Many of those same 7 year FO's do valuable committee work with ALPA from which ALL pilots - ALPA or not - derive benefit.

"If ALPA did a better job in 2010..." I'm sorry but you're really going to have to explain that one to me.
There can be no doubt that our collective agreement is the bench mark which unfortunately has now become the target. There can also be no doubt that there is no more unified a pilot group in the country when unity is more important than ever, so I'm not really sure what you are talking about.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm a 29 year captain with Jazz who has been VERY fortunate through it all. Obviously I'm much, much closer to the end of my career than the begining but never the less I'm very concerned with what is happening in the industry and so should you since you probably have many years ahead of you.

With respect to the "competitive RFP's" that you refer to - Where exactly do you think the cost savings are coming from? The MBA's are taking them right out of your pocket, my pocket and the pocket of every other pilot in the country.

Respectfully,
rxl

[ourkid2000]

You guys can argue about WAWCON, etc all you want......

The bottom line is, lets say GGN does manage to sink Jazz. It won't be long (probably already in the works actually) before someone comes along to try to sink GGN.....and Air Canada will be loving and encouraging it. It all adds up to cheaper and cheaper pilots and FA's.

From what I read on here from all you Pilots.....pfff, jesus. Good luck to you all is all I can say.

[Localizer]

What am I missing about Avpride? He says he works at GGN, insinuates he's flying the RJ (which is Toronto based) but says he'd be required to commute if he was a Jazz pilot? Is someone getting caught up in their lies?

[Mig29]

Avpride,

all you seem to compare is how much more money you will make over 7-8 years vs a Jazz F/o....but then you said yourself you only intend to stick around for a 1-2 years max.....its contradicting little bit.

Second, I wonder how much of I "life" will you have when you only have 10GDO's and have to do O/T to supplement your "great" pay? At Jazz or AC or even WJ, guys easily have 13-15 days off on average. And if you think GGN will raise that, you obviously have not worked there for a long time or talked to people who have.

Anyways.....as one poster noted, you seem to be a prototype of a pilot who only cares about what he flies, which seat he is in and how much money he will make...disregarding everything else about this career. Great example for new, young guys coming in this profession....But then again, with this many AvCanada posts you made, it's really hard to take your opinions serious.

[rxl]

You guys can argue about WAWCON, etc all you want......

The bottom line is, lets say GGN does manage to sink Jazz. It won't be long (probably already in the works actually) before someone comes along to try to sink GGN.....and Air Canada will be loving and encouraging it. It all adds up to cheaper and cheaper pilots and FA's.

From what I read on here from all you Pilots.....pfff, jesus. Good luck to you all is all I can say.

Which is exactly the point to this entire thread.

The questions remain unanswered. Just how low are we willing to go? When are we going to say enough is enough?

The sooner we all answer these questions and come up with a unified plan to deal with the issues, the better off we will all be in the long run.
The "every man for himself" attitude amply demonstrated here is the antithesis of what needs to happen.

Pilots unfortunately aren't the only workers in North America - skilled or otherwise - faced with this serious issue.

[avpride]

Avpride,

all you seem to compare is how much more money you will make over 7-8 years vs a Jazz F/o....but then you said yourself you only intend to stick around for a 1-2 years max.....its contradicting little bit.

Second, I wonder how much of I "life" will you have when you only have 10GDO's and have to do O/T to supplement your "great" pay? At Jazz or AC or even WJ, guys easily have 13-15 days off on average. And if you think GGN will raise that, you obviously have not worked there for a long time or talked to people who have.

Anyways.....as one poster noted, you seem to be a prototype of a pilot who only cares about what he flies, which seat he is in and how much money he will make...disregarding everything else about this career. Great example for new, young guys coming in this profession....But then again, with this many AvCanada posts you made, it's really hard to take your opinions serious.

Dude you couldn't be more wrong. I want to be a GGN CRJ Capt because it pays more and gets me better experience than being a Jazz FO. If Jazz had career progression it may be a consideration but given where Jazz is I am amazed people are still willing to go there. Yup - 10 GDO's is not ideal but I am home most nights so it is OK for now still a better schedule than I had flying corp jets - all the time off in the world but gone on a moments notice. Im having fun right now just having a schedule.

[flyer 1492]

How do you do overtime on only 10 GDO's. Cars would make it very restrictive.

[kingtwo]

Avpride, sounds to me like you spent too much time at the 703/704/604 level. You were a big shot captain on a bizjet as you watched your fo's and peers leave for companies like jazz. Now your mid 30's+ and just too damn proud to be junior to those same fo's and peers. So you choose the fast track to a left seat RJ captain job on a plane with the same paint job, same uniform. Unfortunately your so blinded by your own ego that you can't see that Georgian is a dead end job.
You mention that jazz should be worried about 2020, and perhapse rightfully so, however, you should be more worried about 2015, think about it, Georgians sole reason for operating RJ's is to put downward pressure on jazz's rates and employee compensation, as soon as this exercise is complete and Calin gets a better price form Jazz do you think that Georgian operating 5 clapped out previously mothballed CRJ 100's with terrible OTP/flight completion stats will still be required? I don't think so. Sorry Avpride, please play again,
bu-bye.

[avpride]

Avpride, sounds to me like you spent too much time at the 703/704/604 level. You were a big shot captain on a bizjet as you watched your fo's and peers leave for companies like jazz. Now your mid 30's+ and just too damn proud to be junior to those same fo's and peers. So you choose the fast track to a left seat RJ captain job on a plane with the same paint job, same uniform. Unfortunately your so blinded by your own ego that you can't see that Georgian is a dead end job.
You mention that jazz should be worried about 2020, and perhapse rightfully so, however, you should be more worried about 2015, think about it, Georgians sole reason for operating RJ's is to put downward pressure on jazz's rates and employee compensation, as soon as this exercise is complete and Calin gets a better price form Jazz do you think that Georgian operating 5 clapped out previously mothballed CRJ 100's with terrible OTP/flight completion stats will still be required? I don't think so. Sorry Avpride, please play again,
bu-bye.

Wow bitter much for the record I am not yet 30 but you are right I spent most of my time in 604. GGN will not be flying the old 100's very long you are right about that --- I will leave it there.

[kingtwo]

GGN will not be flying the old 100's very long you are right about that --- I will leave it there.

I'll take the bait, what will Georgian be flying?

[Mig29]

[/quote]

Dude you couldn't be more wrong. I want to be a GGN CRJ Capt because it pays more and gets me better experience than being a Jazz FO. If Jazz had career progression it may be a consideration but given where Jazz is I am amazed people are still willing to go there. Yup - 10 GDO's is not ideal but I am home most nights so it is OK for now still a better schedule than I had flying corp jets - all the time off in the world but gone on a moments notice. Im having fun right now just having a schedule.[/quote]

Of course it's better then having a 2hr (or less callout), trust me man, I've been there too.

But having 10GDOs with a much bigger workload then you had flying biz jets will wear on you fast....You obviously have jet time experience, what are you gaining "more" flying these RJs???? You should've had a chance for an interview at AC, WJ, AT or Sunwing? Or maybe those didn't work out for you....I don't know, it's your life, but with jet time, I'd rather spend my time at a proper airline like Jazz while waiting for the bigger guys to call you. Or is it maybe too much of an ego as previous poster said that's stopping you from applying there?

Cheers,

[Stinky]

I find it hilarious that guys here are actually suggesting it would have made more sense for Avpride to go sit in the right seat of a Jazz Dash than go left seat in a regional jet for one of the new startups. At jazz you are guaranteed to sit in the right seat forever, it's pretty much a certainty it will be on the Dash, you will likely see concessions in 2015 and any new hires will likely be laid off in 2020. Talk about a bad choice, the only people going to Jazz right now should be people with absolutely no other options.

Avpride will have a lot more doors open to him with the RJ time in his log book than any Jazz FO and he'll make more money doing it. It's a no brainer. Nobody likes what has happened to the industry but one guy or even one group couldn't have stopped it. Calin had a plan and many ways he could have achieved it. There are a lot of operators and former airline management people out there that can make a new start up happen. There's no shortage of RJ's for sale in this world. There's no shortage of pilots that want to come home from overseas, or that need a bit of left seat jet time for their next move.

You can play the hand that was dealt you or bury your head in the sand and hope it will all go away. As far as holding your head high in the terminal while looking down on the GGN and SKY guys and then exchanging friendly hellos with AC pilots, I don't recall AC pilots being too friendly to Jazz guys, aren't you doing their flying for less money?