Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[Sasquash]

Agreed, kudos to BPF for an excellent scenario for this type of accident.

Now looking back at the entire thread's comments over the last 9 pages, if we could establish a tie to a person and/or company teaching this practice to their pilots, a liability could be established any future potential legal action.

[chesty]

would this airplane have had a radar altimeter?

[Big Pistons Forever]

would this airplane have had a radar altimeter?

A 703 Ho with a RADALT ?

[flyinthebug]

would this airplane have had a radar altimeter?

Further to BPFs answer (LOL)...

No PA31-350 ive ever flown or seen, has had a radar alt. You usually dont see them until you get up to a King Air or larger. I do believe some of the privately owned US Navajos run around with them, but its certainly not the norm in Canada.

Hope that helps.

Fly safe all.

[chesty]

i geuss not. mabe it should become part of the minium equipment list for ifr. especially spifr.

[cdnpilot77]

would this airplane have had a radar altimeter?

Further to BPFs answer (LOL)...

No PA31-350 ive ever flown or seen, has had a radar alt. You usually dont see them until you get up to a King Air or larger. I do believe some of the privately owned US Navajos run around with them, but its certainly not the norm in Canada.

Hope that helps.

Fly safe all.

May not be common but not an unreasonable question. The 421 that I sit right seat on has a Radar Altimeter

[Bushav8er]

I don't remember...is Spirit in the RCAP?

Sad but I can see it now...'...CFIT, continued below mins in whiteout conditions.'

[Big Pistons Forever]

/quote]
May not be common but not an unreasonable question. The 421 that I sit right seat on has a Radar Altimeter

Is it operated 703 ?

[Canoehead]

The northern 703 operator I worked for several years ago had Radar Altimeter's in all their machines (PAY2 and PA31-350 fleet).

[cdnpilot77]

/quote]
May not be common but not an unreasonable question. The 421 that I sit right seat on has a Radar Altimeter

Is it operated 703 ?

Yes

[Independence]

Both our 703 Navajo's have Radar Altimeters so it's not that uncommon.

[flyinthebug]

The northern 703 operator I worked for several years ago had Radar Altimeter's in all their machines (PAY2 and PA31-350 fleet).

Please name them! We should hear about the good guys! If they invested that kind of money into safety, they deserve a "fist bump" and a shout out on AvCanada. Name names my friend!

This is encouraging to see a few people come out and say HEY, that wasnt such a dumb question...because we have em! Thats the answers we should see from every 703 pilot.

Fly safe.

[Just another canuck]

I've also had rad alt's in several of the Van's I've flown... and if I recall, it's not that expensive a tool given the value of information that you're receiving.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally I don't recall ever seeing a 703 Ho with a RADALT, but it is gratifying to see some operators are investing in their aircraft. Out of curiosity what is your SOP for RADALT use ?

[cdnpilot77]

Personally I don't recall ever seeing a 703 Ho with a RADALT, but it is gratifying to see some operators are investing in their aircraft. Out of curiosity what is your SOP for RADALT use ?

Checked and Cross checked by pic and sic and adjusted for every altitude assignment given, used as alerting for approaching assigned altitudes (1000' and 100' to go) and MDA etc

[Doc]

i geuss not. mabe it should become part of the minium equipment list for ifr. especially spifr.

Um, no. The basic ability to read the altimeter, and recognize the need to descend no further than a predetermined altitude is what should be required. Adding a radar altimeter to the panel will only tempt some to utilize it as their "real" hight above ground. A slippery slope, best left off the panel. That, and maintaining the things? We have them. They're not in the area of a "scan" therefore distracting, at best.
A simple plastic "bug" that can be set on the pressure altimeter to the desired MDA, of DH would set you back...100$?, and save a Hell of a lot more "bacon" than a radar alt!

[Doc]

This is my minimum altitude. It's just like every other minimum altitude. But this one is mine. If I bug it on my altimeter, it will save my life. My life is just like every other life. But this one is mine. I only have on life. If I descend below my minimum altitude, I may lose my life. I only have one life to lose. This is my minimum altitude. It's just like every other minimum altitude. But this one is mine..........
Until THIS gets through EVERYBODY'S thick skulls, these accidents will continue.
Are there any questions?

[Lloyd Christmas]

i geuss not. mabe it should become part of the minium equipment list for ifr. especially spifr.

Um, no. The basic ability to read the altimeter, and recognize the need to descend no further than a predetermined altitude is what should be required. Adding a radar altimeter to the panel will only tempt some to utilize it as their "real" hight above ground. A slippery slope, best left off the panel. That, and maintaining the things? We have them. They're not in the area of a "scan" therefore distracting, at best.
A simple plastic "bug" that can be set on the pressure altimeter to the desired MDA, of DH would set you back...100$?, and save a Hell of a lot more "bacon" than a radar alt!

Doc, You took the words right out of my mouth!

Lloyd

[Maritimer]

This is my minimum altitude. It's just like every other minimum altitude. But this one is mine. If I bug it on my altimeter, it will save my life. My life is just like every other life. But this one is mine. I only have on life. If I descend below my minimum altitude, I may lose my life. I only have one life to lose. This is my minimum altitude. It's just like every other minimum altitude. But this one is mine..........
Until THIS gets through EVERYBODY'S thick skulls, these accidents will continue.
Are there any questions?

Doc I couldn't agree more. Please excuse me but has the temperature been discussed here? Could there have been the possibility that temp comp was not factored into the altitudes on approach?

P.S. nice Full Metal Jacket reference

[CID]

All this talk about a radio altimeter is pointless. You don't need a radio altimeter to land at a strictly VFR airport. The more relevant question is if the airplane was equipped with a GPS navigator that the pilot used to set up his own instrument approach. How else could he have been perfectly lined up with a runway that he apparently couldn't see? Another good question relates to what kind of GPS navigator was installed and whether or not he had any sort of TAWS with a terrain display that would haver emboldened his decision to apparently conduct an approach and landing to a VFR airport in IMC.

Radio altimeters are definitely a "nice to have" for IFR approaches but there really is no role for one in VFR flight.

[flyinthebug]

I've also had rad alt's in several of the Van's I've flown... and if I recall, it's not that expensive a tool given the value of information that you're receiving.

Around 7000-10000$ per aircraft initial investment...it is the maintenance costs that hurt down the road. To a small operator, it simply doesnt make any business sense.

Doc, VERY good point. MDA is MDA regardless of whether you have a pressure alt or a RADalt. I believe putting a radar alt in a (703) PA31-350 would offer a false sense of security to the less experienced pilots. Cold correction charts and current alt settings are your best friend.

Fly safe all.

[chesty]

I was thinking that mabe the altimeter was not set correctly and a radar altimeter could have been used for reference. I never thought of using the radar altimeter to "sneek" a little lower on an approach. I understand now why It should not be part of the equipment list.

[Just another canuck]

Around 7000-10000$ per aircraft initial investment...it is the maintenance costs that hurt down the road. To a small operator, it simply doesnt make any business sense.

Ah, thank you FITB... I thought that was the approximate price, however I wasn't sure what they cost to keep up.

I believe putting a radar alt in a (703) PA31-350 would offer a false sense of security to the less experienced pilots.

This may be true... but, now we come back to training. If trained properly, the RAD ALT can be a very useful tool to cross-reference your altimeter with. And like the above poster stated, could serve as a back up to a faulty altimeter/setting. I never used it "sneak in" but I used it as a reference on every approach. Used correctly, it certainly can't be a bad thing.

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

The subject on mind and my co-workers minds has finally come up.
And if it's accurate, then this is probably an honest mistake a lot of us have made.
We were out flying that morning, if I remember correctly the altimiter in Winnipeg was roughly the high 29.7's
The altimeter in Big Trout, Sandy, Red, Norway etc were low 29.5's.
Looks a LOT like an OBS approach, he was flying it perfectly on the center line (Edited to remove any kind of accolades for the pilot, I offended to many "professionals" with them, sorry ). And he believed he was 250 feet up.
Could the altimiter survive a fire?

Who knows, but that's our 2 cents.

I flew the Campbell's out yesterday, they were very jovial. Laughing, nudging, playing. And curious about the aerial view of the crash site. They have a unique, but seemingly effective way of dealing with grief. Good people.
One thing is for sure, they are very safety conscious now.
While I was giving the briefing, one turned around and asked me if it was OK, that they chose the seats they did. And another once prompted actually immediately pulled out the passenger briefing card to follow along.

Condolences to all.
And God-Speed Comrade.

[flyinthebug]

I believe putting a radar alt in a (703) PA31-350 would offer a false sense of security to the less experienced pilots.

This may be true... but, now we come back to training. If trained properly, the RAD ALT can be a very useful tool to cross-reference your altimeter with. And like the above poster stated, could serve as a back up to a faulty altimeter/setting. I never used it "sneak in" but I used it as a reference on every approach. Used correctly, it certainly can't be a bad thing.

Agreed 100% and well said.