Vanguard wrote: Legality requires that you do it. .

Umm, not really.. The CARs states that you must ensure that you don't exceed weight and balance. Photofly has graciously quoted the requisite CAR above.

If you're going to take two average sized people on a Cessna 172 with full tanks, I would not be too concerned. If it's a PPL pilot in the making, I'd get him/her to do it for practice.. But you should know that it'll be impossible to exceed any weight or balance limits in this situation. Of course, when in doubt do a quick check.. Especially with all the fancy weight and balance apps you can get for any smart phone or tablet these days, it shouldn't take more than a few seconds!

CpnCrunch wrote:So do you do a density altitude/landing/takeoff distance calculation when landing on a 6000ft runway at sealevel when it's 20C in a 172? If not, you're just getting into a bad habit!

LMAO. There is a difference in being prepared well and being stupid. You're obviously able to make the distinction between the two. Although now that you do mention this: I have seen many times where licensed pilots barely know how to calculate using performance charts or barely do their W/B correctly. Like PilotDAR said it is a worthy exercise. I'm just saying whats the harm in spending 5-mins extra to make sure you're more safe?

photofly wrote: One hopes you teach your students to learn, remember and respect the regulations that apply to any flights, and to treat each aircraft type as is appropriate. One hopes you don't teach your students to pretend a c172 is a B1900. Or a Boeing 737.

One isn't hoping to teach his students to pretend a 172 is a 1900 but entailing proper knowledge and experience to make better aviators is part of the Instructors job. Also I understand there is obviously a huge difference in schools that have proper SOPs vs Flying Club students who normally aren't used to having everything done down to the dot and these small rules/habits aren't enforced.

Like I've said...By all means if you're too lazy to do 5 mins of paperwork for a General aviation flight...well its your own personal choice but it has led to many accidents before and is generally a unsafe route in my opinion. You get to choose the type of pilot you want to be. I'm not saying you have spend 3 hrs to prep even a short flight ...My opinion is that proper planning and having situation awareness is always safer and makes aviation safer for everyone.

I'm astonished it takes you even half as long as five minutes to calculate the weight and balance for a 172. I'm equally astonished that you see even the tiniest tiniest merit in spending as short a time as 15 seconds repeating the same calculation as the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that. Are the rules of arithmetic so variable that the same numbers on different days will give you different calculations?

Vanguard wrote:

pelmet wrote:
Because the question was about the legality, that's why.

I have flown a bunch of small types over the last few years and rarely do a weight and balance after the checkout if I am familiar with the aircraft.

Flew a 172 a couple of months ago with two people on board. Fuel was at half for a small cross country flight. No doubt the fuel was enough but filled up anyways but no W&B.

Do you think I was unsafe? Of course not. It is called experience on type.

To be honest with you, on the usual long runway ops that I do, I am more worried about balance than weight.

Legality requires that you do it.

I fly a B1900, besides carrying cargo/passengers in random quantities...sometimes we even repo empty with just crew...I am highly experienced on the aircraft so should I just go? No. To a point W/B is done for each leg of flight.

I disagree with your "experience on type theory" and in my own opinion I do consider you unsafe. Maybe the Instructor in me would never let my student lead into this habit ...This is how accidents occur and General aviation pilots start picking up bad habits. This maybe a small thing but it leads to other things being overlooked. You're obviously capable of making your own choices but I suggest you take a read on how many accidents in GA have also occur due to false loading/no planning.

B1900 versus a 172. What's next? You remind me of another poster who said that I was unsafe because the de-ice fluid I used remove frost from the aircraft was not certified the way the stuff the airlines use is certified and that the equipment used to apply it(spray bottle) is not certified. We get these people who think a light aircraft must be operated the same way as an airliner.

I believe that we have our answer about the legality of the requirement for a weight and balance to be actually done on a light aircraft. The answer is, the aircraft has to be within limits, not that an actual W&B needs to be done every flight. Why? Because even the guys who make the regulations have enough sense to know that flights can be done quite safely based on experience.

3.5.2 Weight Control
Pilots must recognize the effect of weight and balance on
the performance and handling of aircraft, particularly in
combination with performance-reducing factors, such as
contaminated runways, aircraft icing, degraded engine
performance, severe or uncoordinated manoeuvres, turbulence,
high ambient temperatures and emergency situations.
It is mandatory to calculate weight and balance accurately
for every flight and ensure that they are within the aircraft’s
permissible limits in order to comply with the aircraft
airworthiness certificate and conform to the regulations.
Before the aircraft takes off, it is equally important that
the pilot-in-command (PIC) of the aircraft ensures that the
load carried by the aircraft is of an appropriate weight and
distributed and secured in such a way that it may be carried
safely on the intended flight. If weight and centre-of-gravity
(balance) limitations are not observed, the pilot is failing to
comply with a legal condition for the operation of the aircraft,
which therefore nullifies its airworthiness certificate.

3.5.4 Operational Requirements
It is the responsibility of the PIC of the aircraft to ensure
that the weight and balance report of the flight accurately
represents the actual load and that the actual load does not
exceed the maximum allowable weight limits specified in the
AFM for any phase of the flight.

CARs aren't the only reference you have to use. Please open up the TC AIM. There is a lot more to read ..I've taken some of it out here for you to finally know that it is indeed required that you do W/B for each and every flight...Be it the same numbers...the forms have to be dated for each day. If you're so lazy about it just photocopy the form and put a new date on it every time but it is still mandatory.

pelmet wrote:
B1900 versus a 172. What's next? You remind me of another poster who said that I was unsafe because the de-ice fluid I used remove frost from the aircraft was not certified the way the stuff the airlines use is certified and that the equipment used to apply it(spray bottle) is not certified. We get these people who think a light aircraft must be operated the same way as an airliner.

I believe that we have our answer about the legality of the requirement for a weight and balance to be actually done on a light aircraft. The answer is, the aircraft has to be within limits, not that an actual W&B needs to be done every flight. Why? Because even the guys who make the regulations have enough sense to know that flights can be done quite safely based on experience.

You are quite wrong. Again and again I bring up the emphasis on Safety. I think you have the wrong idea about being safe. Safety isn't something you do...It needs to be an attitude which clearly from what I can tell you nor your instructor have. Also that poster was not incorrect. You can't use De-Icing Fluid from a spray bottle!!!! People train on light aircraft to go on to bigger aircrafts don't they? You seriously have a wrong idea about all this.

I honestly would love to know where you did your flight training?

photofly wrote:I'm astonished it takes you even half as long as five minutes to calculate the weight and balance for a 172. I'm equally astonished that you see even the tiniest tiniest merit in spending as short a time as 15 seconds repeating the same calculation as the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that. Are the rules of arithmetic so variable that the same numbers on different days will give you different calculations?

LOL.. I love how people just have to say something thinking they are so smart. I am quit astonished with your post actually hahah ..

You need to read AIM GEN 1.1.3 which makes it clear that whatever is written in the AIM is merely advisory unless supported by the CARs. There is no regulation that requires a written weight and balance before each private flight. There are no possible sanctions available to any regulatory agency for disobeying the AIM unless you also violated a CAR or primary federal legislation like the Aeronautics Act. The possible penalties for violating any Canadian Aviation Regulaion are listed, section by section, in part 1 of the CARs. I invite you to look through the list there and try to find there the penalty for not carrying a dated weight and balance report for your flight, if you think there is one.


As we have repeatedly stated, your obligation is to remain inside the approved envelope, where there is one. How you ensure that you do, is entirely up to you.


The theory that photocopying the weight and balance calculation you did yesterday makes any difference to your safety today is so dumb it has to be pointed out.


And no, the vast majority of people who train on small airplanes do *not* go on to bigger ones.

Vanguard wrote:People train on light aircraft to go on to bigger aircrafts don't they?

Actually, people train on light aircraft to fly light aircraft. When you learn to fly bigger aircraft they'll train you on the bigger aircraft. The idea that you should train to fly a Cessna the way you would train to fly an Airbus has a lot of traction in certain flight schools but is nonsensical. There is nothing that applies to flying an Airbus that doesn't already apply to flying a Cessna that should be trained while learning to fly a Cessna. If your instructor is telling you to fly a certain way or do a certain thing because it will come in handy flying larger aircraft, find a different instructor. Either it's applicable to the aircraft you are flying ... or it isn't.

As for doing a weight and balance, in my aircraft documents I have a set of example weight and balance calculations for normal situations. Me and minimum fuel. Me and max bags and 3 hours of fuel. Me and my wife and max bags, full fuel and minimum fuel. It's impossible to get the c of g too far forward, and as long as I'm under gross and have less than 200 lbs in the baggage compartment, it's impossible to have the c of g too far aft.

Total weight is a completely different kettle of fish. In small airplanes we are very often way too close to max gross weight, and tend not to weight all the stuff we are throwing in the back. Often we don't consider how much the fuel weighs, just how much time we have in the tanks. I keep a baggage scale in the aircraft and weigh everything before loading it into the aircraft. If I'm over half fuel (which is about half of the time I go flying), I total up the actual takeoff weight for the first takeoff of the day, or if I add something for a later flight. If I'm flying any aircraft other than my own, I do a weight and balance calculation.

I think the key point to all this is that if you think you are always within w&b limits and never checking, you're probably setting yourself up for an accident. You don't have to do a detailed calculation each and every flight, but you do have to think about it each and every flight.

Vanguard wrote: CARs aren't the only reference you have to use. Please open up the TC AIM. There is a lot more to read ..I've taken some of it out here for you to finally know that it is indeed required that you do W/B for each and every flight...Be it the same numbers...the forms have to be dated for each day. If you're so lazy about it just photocopy the form and put a new date on it every time but it is still mandatory.

You better do the reading. The AIM is advisory only.

pelmet wrote:
B1900 versus a 172. What's next? You remind me of another poster who said that I was unsafe because the de-ice fluid I used remove frost from the aircraft was not certified the way the stuff the airlines use is certified and that the equipment used to apply it(spray bottle) is not certified. We get these people who think a light aircraft must be operated the same way as an airliner.

I believe that we have our answer about the legality of the requirement for a weight and balance to be actually done on a light aircraft. The answer is, the aircraft has to be within limits, not that an actual W&B needs to be done every flight. Why? Because even the guys who make the regulations have enough sense to know that flights can be done quite safely based on experience.

Vanguard wrote:You are quite wrong. Again and again I bring up the emphasis on Safety. I think you have the wrong idea about being safe. Safety isn't something you do...It needs to be an attitude which clearly from what I can tell you nor your instructor have. Also that poster was not incorrect. You can't use De-Icing Fluid from a spray bottle!!!! People train on light aircraft to go on to bigger aircrafts don't they? You seriously have a wrong idea about all this.

I honestly would love to know where you did your flight training?

I have some news for you. There are all kinds of light aircraft pilots that are familiar with their aircraft that trained in no doubt hundreds of flight schools that don't mindlessly do a W&B every time because they know their aircraft. But seeing as you asked where I did my training....I did my training in Canada. By the way, many people who train on lit aircraft don't go on to "bigger aircraft". And even if they do, that does not mean I am being unsafe by using a spray bottle to put some fluid on the wings of my aircraft. Feel free to show me where it says that it is required.

Now I am going to shock you again. Because of the airports I typically fly from, I almost never do a takeoff or landing performance calculation. I know how to if required but rarely do one, even for runways as short as 3500 feet at sea level. Dangerous again I suppose.

You are quite wrong. Again and again I bring up the emphasis on Safety. I think you have the wrong idea about being safe. Safety isn't something you do...It needs to be an attitude which clearly from what I can tell you nor your instructor have. Also that poster was not incorrect. You can't use De-Icing Fluid from a spray bottle!!!! People train on light aircraft to go on to bigger aircrafts don't they? You seriously have a wrong idea about all this.

You're barking up the wrong tree railing against these posters Vanguard, they know what they are talking about. You have been taught to follow instructions, and that's good. Keep doing that as long as you are comfortable doing so, and you will not be criticized for that. You may find in time that there is more than one way to be compliant with both safety and regulation, as you learn this, you may embrace some of these methods, but again that's up to you...

Interpreting or presenting advisory information as regulation will slow your life down. Embracing the philosophies of the advisory information will keep you safe - there's a difference.

There are times that I will fly a single Cessna, and know to within half a pound, and 0.1" of station, my W&B. There are other times when if I guess within 100 pounds, and am satisfied with my mental calculation that I'm within limits, I'm happy. It depends upon what I'm doing on that flight. For those times when my W&B is precise, I have witnessed an accurate weighing of the aircraft, three times, rotating the certified scales under the wheels. Dry fuel tanks. I have weighed myself, and everything being carried. I have added a specified volume of fuel, and getting the specific gravity for that batch of fuel, so I know it's actual weight. I then use a measuring tape to assure that the load is distributed as required to achieve the required C of G. From that, I calculate. You can be certain that W&B is right on. I do that a few times a year, and afterword, I'll sign an STC off for someone, because I am satisfied that the regulatory requirements for certification have been met.

Then, I'll jump in one of my planes, and fly home. I will have computed that particular W&B, for that plane, though perhaps not within the last few decades...

Satisfy yourself as the pilot that you're within W&B limits, and fly the plane safely. Be confident that other pilots are doing that too, though perhaps with a different approach....

Vanguard wrote:Legality requires that you do it.

Just came across this in a TSB report.

2.3.2 Weight and Balance
The occurrence aircraft departed over gross weight, but due to consumption of fuel, was under the maximum permissible gross weight at the time of the accident. The student had indicated, by initialling the flight release, that a weight-and-balance calculation had been completed. However, there were no details of the calculation, nor is it required by regulation.