Is the PC-12 a burden for our future?

[Meatservo]

Well, you can certainly use a Cessna 152 to learn and practice a lot of the skills you'll need to fly a 787... I guess you probably shouldn't use a 787 to learn and practice the skills you'll need to fly a 152. It would be an interesting experiment, though.

I betcha a PC-12 pilot, a Navajo pilot, an Islander pilot and an Otter pilot, presuming they all have their ATPLs, could probably attend a 787 initial simulator and ground school course, pass their rides and become perfectly competent first officers, without too much disparity between their final scores.

[AuxBatOn]

My point is that flying is not a "you have it or you don't" buisness. Some types of flying will require different skills and cognitive abilities than other types. And some of those skills can be developped with time.

[Meatservo]

I respect your opinion, and understand what you are saying. I have observed however that some people "have it" and are pretty much good at any kind of flying. Some people do not, and may nevertheless be OK at SOME kinds of flying, but not necessarily.

Of course, being good at something may not be relevant if that thing also happens to bore the hell out of you.

I guess my point ultimately was: responsible adherence to S.O.P.s, practicing good CRM, staying keen, and keeping your personal standards high will stand you in good stead no matter what kind of aircraft you are working on, to a much greater degree than what kind of aircraft you are working on.

You may not be able to fly a 787 the way you would fly a 152, but you can certainly fly a 152 "as if" you were flying a 787: precisely, responsibly, and consistently.

[trey kule]

I'm just sayin' - turn off that autopilot and flight director from time to time and hand fly to 100' feet on an ILS or Rnav+v raw data

whenever I read a statement like this, I have to wonder what your company SOP's say about this practice, and why they are not hiring pilots who do not need to "practice" this by flying to minimums..Seems like more of a fun thing to do. If you must practice hand flying the plane, why not do it in good weather rather than testing yourself where an overestimation of your skill results in either an unnecessary miss or people getting hurt and metal getting bent.
Proper initial and recurrent training programs, and particularly in a sim is the place to practice this. If you are not competent or confident that you can do it by hand, or find another airport rather than actually fly it to minimums by hand, perhaps you are flying above your skill level. Training is not an operational exercise.

auxbat posted

If I understand you well, the qualities and skills required to fly a Cessna 152 are the same as the ones required to fly a B787?

According to a lot of FTU advertising, that seems to be pretty much the case

[SuperchargedRS]

I'm just sayin' - turn off that autopilot and flight director from time to time and hand fly to 100' feet on an ILS or Rnav+v raw data

whenever I read a statement like this, I have to wonder what your company SOP's say about this practice, and why they are not hiring pilots who do not need to "practice" this by flying to minimums..Seems like more of a fun thing to do. If you must practice hand flying the plane, why not do it in good weather rather than testing yourself where an overestimation of your skill results in either an unnecessary miss or people getting hurt and metal getting bent.
Proper initial and recurrent training programs, and particularly in a sim is the place to practice this. If you are not competent or confident that you can do it by hand, or find another airport rather than actually fly it to minimums by hand, perhaps you are flying above your skill level. Training is not an operational exercise.

auxbat posted

If I understand you well, the qualities and skills required to fly a Cessna 152 are the same as the ones required to fly a B787?

According to a lot of FTU advertising, that seems to be pretty much the case

Truth

[springlocked]

whenever I read a statement like this, I have to wonder what your company SOP's say about this practice, and why they are not hiring pilots who do not need to "practice" this by flying to minimums

-- ah yes but there is the catch 22 -- at entry level are the skills there -- the point of my whole argument is that "stick and rudder skills" are not at a level they were in the past because of automation -- new pilots should hone these skills every chance they get -

[trey kule]

There is no catch 22 here.
Entry level pilots should not be hand flying an approach to minimums unless the company has given them very good training, and the company training people are satisfied they can do it. They, more than anyone else , are not qualified to decide that they should turn off things to learn..and particularly in IMC to minimums...
If they are not confident or competent than they should be having their ops limits increased.

But in no event should they be doing self decided training on operational flights. If the equipment is there it should be used to make the flight as safe as possible. Not a training adventure for an entry level pilot.

And that is not what you were advocating. You were advocating just doing it for....well for fun...Rationalize it however you want.
Turn off the auto pilot. Challenge yourself! Drive it to minimums...And well,, if you find out your are not quite as good as you thought you were you can always get another job after the learning experience, provided you survive.
In our company such actions are considered resume update times.
The reason companies have check pilots is to assess a pilot's competency. It is not a pilots job to do that and then set up there own little training program...Lots of bent metal over the years from pilots trying to get experience when they should have just stuck to flying the aircraft like they were supposed to have been doing.
You are getting paid to do a job. You are not getting paid to develop and implement your own training program. If you can't do the job, then you need training, supervision, or a less demanding one until you get the experience.

[Meatservo]

Companies usually have a policy about this kind of thing. Some forward-thinking companies encourage hand-flying as long as it doesn't cause a high workload. Depends on where you are and what you are doing. Flying to an airport in relatively uncongested airspace with simple arrival procedures, or in VFR conditions, workload may not increase too much when you decide to get on the controls and practice your scan and flying technique. Flying in hard IFR or busy airspace, your attention may find a more constructive use monitoring the aeroplane and planning your arrival and approach. If you were to be hand-flying in this situation, you would basically be leaving all the planning and mental math to the PNF and this increases both of your workload. With the automation doing its thing, you can work together. This enhances the quality of your briefings and, not surprisingly, your general situational awareness. Also, the bigger planes don't respond quickly to thrust and attitude changes, and an ILS on a windy night can really be challenging to hand-fly. Computers are OCD. They can happily do repetitive or fiddly things like chasing needles and keeping the bars centred while you do things that humans are better at, like planning ahead and maintaining situational awareness!

I don't know what to say when it comes to green pilots who are still learning how to fly well. I think in a perfect world a person would only be considered employable on a large automated aeroplane after they had sweated it out for a while in something like an HS748 or Metro or something like that, with little to no automation. Then that person would be able to cope with anything that might happen during their career, without feeling like they have to "practice" hand-flying when they don't need to.

Some say that flying is a volatile skill though, so at my company for instance, flying manually is encouraged as long as workload is light. As soon as you need to concentrate, start pressing the "Easy" button.

[Axial Flow]

As far as a volatile skill I would agree. You definitely are competent on how you do something everyday. We had a GPS taken out for the summer when I was an FO. At first it was like someone took away my soother and it for the first two days I felt "lost":) But after doing multiple legs and using ground speed checks and going old school I was again competent at it and the dependence on GPS was gone. The full IMC days doing descents to MSA based on time didn't make me feel particularly good but when the timer started flashing and the NDB swung around I was always amazed that math still works without a GPS. Do that to me today and I will just ground the thing, but it was also good to know you can quite quickly revert to different methods when you have to. But not having ever programmed an FMS or have to switch up an approach after loading it when you are about to start it will be most difficult who doesn't have the current or any experience doing so. Like Meat said....they are all the same and as long as I make it through alive, no cadors, incident reports or damage to the airplane it has been a successful day.

[springlocked]

There is no catch 22 here.

-- but there is

Obviously a complicated subject and I think apples and oranges are getting mixed in here -- My remarks are for 703 entry level pilots and partial automation -- I don't think there is a fully automated small aircraft (meaning auto throttle and full FMS) I guess the closest would be a PC12 NG - what is the level of training for right seat -- operators don't spend money on seat warmers and the guy in the left seat is usually a product of once being a seat warmer until he moved across to the left side -- if mr autopilot has been doing all the work what are his stick and rudder skills really like -- granted everyone should be able to learn but there are a great number of guys now who will progress though the ranks and be able to hide behind automation and never achieve that level of self awareness and spacial orientation that came out of an era of steam driven equipment - maybe that is an OK thing since technology can be managed and used and we are fast approaching that since you can now be trained on an aircraft and do your check ride and the first time you actually sit in the seat is with paying passengers in the back but this is done through a very regimented and strict training syllabus -- not so for 703 entry level with poorly maintain autopilot and a company who expects you to fly if it's unserviceable and hand fly -- so tell me what the answer is -- I see the results of the new generation pilot every day and I can be argued that they don't need these skills in this day and age of driverless cars etc but when they step back into the past and bolt old generation aeroplanes to their ass it's like ab initio training all over -- they actually have to learn to fly the aeroplane instead of the aeroplane flying them. They do get it and are better drivers for it - it's the ones who never get exposed to this and eventually end up as commander in the heavy metal that are the concern -- maybe it will come down to eventually that simulators will be developed for learning basic flying as well - which are far more expensive than our most sophisticated airline simulator of present day since it would have the requirement of being able to give real time motion and attitude feed back --

It's not a simple subject with a simple answer -- it is very easy to fall into the automation rut -- how to deal with this is the critical question

[co-joe]

Oh this "the right type of time" bullshit again. I hate this industry.

[springlocked]

Oh this "the right type of time" bullshit again. I hate this industry.

-- are you that bitter -- there is no "right type" the only time you need worry about is what gets you an ATP and then it's about how you present yourself in the interviews --

[co-joe]

First off, yes I am that bitter.

Second, no the ATPL is not all that matters. It's just a first step, then you need multi time, but not "too much" right seat time, then you need PIC, but that single engine PIC oh boy you better not have "too much of that", time to get a move on boy. Then you need multi PIC, but it better not all be piston or you'll have yup "too much" then you need large aircraft time but not too much right seat time, or it has to have a flight attendant, or it has to be on a scheduled route can't just be charter. Or you have to know someone, or it doesn't matter who you know, you have to have good timing.

It's all bullshit made up by people who think their time is better than your time so they can justify hiring their own friends. PC12 time is fantastic. It should be all you need to get an airline job, but people who don't know it, are afraid of it. King air time is just as valuable, it should be all you need, but noo you have to get 1900 time. But that charter 1900 time isn't as good as if you fly for CMA, or Georgian, because it's sked. And everybody knows sked is better..... And nopw a 1900 isn't "Large" enough you need to get on a Dash, or an ATR..... It never ends until you get an airline job, then all you want is more money and more days off.

An hour is an hour is an hour.

[Meatservo]

Nope, it doesn't end there. You may have been flying for a while as captain in a transport-category jet but is it above 100,000 pounds? If not, keep digging.

[Prodriver]

because if you are flying a PC12 you are probably making more and have a better schedule than someone working for the above airlines.

== rotflmfaooooo -- really - were the FDT changed for 703

Here is food for thought -- remove the multi-engine out of the equation -- 2 pilots -- one a metro driver and the other a pc12 guy -- who would you hire -- for me a no brainer -- the metro guy and why you ask? -- because he didn't have an autopilot -- and there it is -- the erosion of stick and rudder skills due to automation -

That is quite possibly the dumbest post I have ever seen on the internet.... Really? If you can't fly a TAA aircraft you got no business in an airliner of any kind.

[springlocked]

That is quite possibly the dumbest post I have ever seen on the internet.... Really? If you can't fly a TAA aircraft you got no business in an airliner of any kind.

First of all RTFP that's from RTFQ

It is directed at people who have relied on automation from the beginning as opposed to those who have actually hand spanked an aeroplane for several hundred hours. The situation is in an interview and who would be the choice would be.

Strangely just recently had this very discussion with a very experienced PC12 driver/check pilot and that was one of his comments on how stick and rudder skills (even his) had been eroded by using the autopilot. His advantage was that he was very high timed and after finding himself flying a type(not a PC12) without a functioning autopilot muscle memory was revived. For those who never honed these skills are certainly less talented and better hope they never need to cope without automation, which is becoming more the norm today and thus raising the alarms at several professional pilot associations.

I'm the first to acknowledge that times change and automation is a fact of life and will eventually take over 100% of the flight. At the very best today's generation might just be sitting there as safety pilot(s).

Pro I'm not sure what your level of experience is but one thing I do know is you never flew a lot of IFR without the luxury of automation, moving maps and GPS. This is all great stuff but hand spank it while you can because if you move on to the heavy metal that's all in the past and looked down upon by the pros. Why squander the best time you will ever have in this profession.

[Duukar]

My buddy went straight from a PC-12NG onto the embrear at sky regional. That was two years ago. His captain line check is this November.

PC-12NG is a great aircraft. As a Medevac captain on a Super King Air 350 with G1000 I cant wait to eventually get my hands on the PC-24. I was in love with the PC-12NG at one point.

[garfield]

PC-12...single turbine pressurized.

I don't like holidays.

[Prodriver]

Spring, good points, and it is an issue. You can't replace flying skill and passion with automation or a button that will fix everything. I have had autopilot trouble a couple times and had to hand fly for a couple hrs, no problem. I think the single pilot PC12 candidate has more exp. and better judgment and would be a better choice. Driving a PC12NG, single pilot, the autopilot is my copliot, and that is the case in most TAA that are operated single pilot. Your Metro example the copilot is the autopilot for the captain, etc. and a sound board for decision making, CRM. It is great exp. but so was working my way up to a PC12NG, lots of hrs boring holes in the sky in none TAA and TAA AC. The world I find my self in has lots of SIDS and STAR and the PC12NG is an incredible platform for dealing with that enviroment and task saturation single pilot, there is times it is very busy and I must monitor the autopilot and selections just like you would a second crew member. They are great planes with the right equipment for the task at hand, SPIFR.

[NotDirty!]

Spring, good points, and it is an issue. You can't replace flying skill and passion with automation or a button that will fix everything. I have had autopilot trouble a couple times and had to hand fly for a couple hrs, no problem. I think the single pilot PC12 candidate has more exp. and better judgment and would be a better choice. Driving a PC12NG, single pilot, the autopilot is my copliot, and that is the case in most TAA that are operated single pilot. Your Metro example the copilot is the autopilot for the captain, etc. and a sound board for decision making, CRM. It is great exp. but so was working my way up to a PC12NG, lots of hrs boring holes in the sky in none TAA and TAA AC. The world I find my self in has lots of SIDS and STAR and the PC12NG is an incredible platform for dealing with that enviroment and task saturation single pilot, there is times it is very busy and I must monitor the autopilot and selections just like you would a second crew member. They are great planes with the right equipment for the task at hand, SPIFR.

Please make sure that you bring this up if you ever go for an airline interview! When they ask you to tell them a time about when you had a disagreement with a crew member, you can talk about the time that the autopilot kept disconnecting on you!

Don't get me wrong, I love technology, and have really enjoyed playing with the gadgets in various airplanes I have flown, including a couple that are considered TAA. And if I had to fly a single pilot IFR machine, I would prefer to have all of the bells and whistles, but I would rather have a human first officer over a functioning autopilot any day.

There are many PC12 operators who fly them with two crew members, and many operators of other single pilot approved airplanes operate two crew as well, because it is an easy way to improve safety. Even the Saskatchewan government's medevac King Airs are now operating two crew, after many years of single pilot operations, IIRC. CRM is the best tool available to improve safety, and something that is sorely lacking if you just put two people into the cockpit without proper training and SOPs.