Keystone
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Re: Keystone
So what finally did them in? Don't tell me Transport finally stepped up....
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Re: Keystone
Before I start here, I want to make it crystal clear that I am not defending Keystone and the owner in any way. Some things you said here I can agree with, and some things I don't. You are making a very bold statement that all pilots from this company should not be in this industry, if that is what you are trying to say. I have unfortunately worked for Keystone and I have since moved on to bigger and better things, as have all other pilots who I worked with. I would also like to know which operators have so called "blacklisted" the pilots, because to tell you the truth, I don't know of a single one since pilots have been hired almost everywhere I can think of.trey kule wrote:Nobody should work for these companies at all. Rationalize it however you want, but if you stay more than a week or two when you find out what type of a company they are you are part of the problem.Nobody works for these companies as a plan A.
And just like these companies should not be in business, I dont think the pilots that worked for them, and allowed them to stay in business until the accidents happened should be in aviation either.
The poor desparate me , what was I to do, excuse falls on deaf ears here.
Btw...they are not "good" people who will support sleazy companies by flying for them...dont care how you spin it.
The owners of these companies are not busting minimums, overunning runways, flying without proper fuel,overweight. Or crashing and killing people. Their pilots are. So dont give me the poor little victim pilot excuses. They are gang members carrying out their orders.
In the past we have bounced people to the top of the list because their resumes showed they worked for one of these sleazeball outfits just long enough to realize what was going on...I respect that, and I think most of the old guys in the industry who hire do as well.
And so endth my rant..
A little advice, I suggest you get your facts and figures together before slamming those that worked there. We had the same TC and approved examiners on our rides as the other operators in the Winnipeg area. It was my first job and stayed there because it allowed me to live a life in a city, rather than the bush. I did not like management and had huge problems with them, which is why I left. I flew by the book, stood my ground and often refused flights due to wx etc.
A good Captain is one that stands his/her ground, uses good judgement, is a team player, listens to others, doesn't cut corners, steps in and speaks out in dangerous situations, teaches new pilots the ropes with respect and courtesy they deserve, have a constant and open communication to the chief pilot, submits SMS, operates aircraft with POH and CARs limits etc. All these things I did, and it was not taken well with the "boss", and there was an expectation "to get the job done" like many other operators. Using due diligence, checking weather and NOTAMS etc and standing my ground was a daily thing for me, and I got too fed up with the BS which made me quit in the end. I had a ton of fun working with my coworkers and was well respected, and I was sad to leave but happy at the same time to move on.
You are what you make out of the situation. It can go two ways; you are a follower and do what management says, OR you have a brain and realize you are the one responsible if anything happens.
But if you think I should be blacklisted and tossed out of this industry, because I was a "gang member carrying out orders" then please get to know me a little better before you make these comments. The guys I flew with were actually "good" because, you know what? I worked with them and can say that because I know them very well. Feel free to PM me if you like.
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Re: Keystone
Good post FOD vac
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.
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Re: Keystone
Anyone know who might have purchased the King Airs? That's not really a small purchase and I'm sure someone, somewhere might have and idea where they went. The registry still shows them as Keystone aircraft, but that can take a bit of time to update.
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Re: Keystone
Most of the "gang members" that I met when the CYTH gang was in operation are now siitting in left seats at Westjet, or getting close to them at AirCanada...
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Re: Keystone
FOD, I think you might have cherry picked what I posted. Read again the part where I said I respected those that got out.
As to all the left seaters...lets pause for a moment and give some thought to the families of the pax that were killed, or pax who were hurt. To the higher insurance costs imposed on everyone because of the accidents...and these were all the result of pilots....not the company. They were not the impressive pilots like FOD. They were the I'll do anything to advance my career pilots.
Smart and ethical ones quit. Scum stayed on, and the lucky ones lived and moved on
Yes, my statements were strong and bold. We need to get the message through to pilots that they are not hapless victims of circumstance, but willing whores who will do what they have to to build hours and advance their career . Until that message gets through, these companies will continue to be able to operate..the rationalizations have to stop.
And that is not going to happen until employers in the industry make a statement that if you work for one of the slimeball companies (and dont quit over difficulties) there will be consequences.
The majors dont give a rats ass, as they are destination companies, but I hope the rest of the industry would.
I will say it again. These kind of companies can only exist with the aid of pilots willing to do anything ,
Including endangering their pax lives.
Quite glad I am not in that part of the industry anymore.
As to all the left seaters...lets pause for a moment and give some thought to the families of the pax that were killed, or pax who were hurt. To the higher insurance costs imposed on everyone because of the accidents...and these were all the result of pilots....not the company. They were not the impressive pilots like FOD. They were the I'll do anything to advance my career pilots.
Smart and ethical ones quit. Scum stayed on, and the lucky ones lived and moved on
Yes, my statements were strong and bold. We need to get the message through to pilots that they are not hapless victims of circumstance, but willing whores who will do what they have to to build hours and advance their career . Until that message gets through, these companies will continue to be able to operate..the rationalizations have to stop.
And that is not going to happen until employers in the industry make a statement that if you work for one of the slimeball companies (and dont quit over difficulties) there will be consequences.
The majors dont give a rats ass, as they are destination companies, but I hope the rest of the industry would.
I will say it again. These kind of companies can only exist with the aid of pilots willing to do anything ,
Including endangering their pax lives.
Quite glad I am not in that part of the industry anymore.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Keystone
removed by poster
Last edited by Magnetron on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Keystone
Wow, a great bunch of Captains....hard to understand why TC would want to shut them down...
Oh wait, lets have a quick look.
TSB A02C0124... The Pilot departed without a working autopilot contrary to CARS.
The PIC did not carry adequate fuel.
The PIC flew the approach to high, to fast, and did not advise ATC of his critical situation in a timely manner.
2 people seriously hurt.
TSB A12C005. The Pilot conducted an approach to an airport that did not have IF rules in place , in adverse weather, and continued in icing conditions...4 fatal, including the pilot
No question in my mind this is 100% the company's fault. What were those poor pilot victims to do?
But of course that has all changed. All the pilots now stand up to the company and do not do any dangerous or illegal things....A bit confusing why you would say leaving was a blessiinh
I wish you no ill Magnetron but dont try to blow smoke up my butt. your integrity was pretty much gone when you went to work for them, and continued working for them.
The company only was able to continue to operate as long as they did because some pilots could rationalize working there. And as long as there are pilots that a re willing to do that, companies like this will continue to appear.
If you were running a company that paid and trated their pilots well, had an extensive training program, and had to deal with customers who wanted the same price as slimballs company, and had to cancel flights or limit loads that slimeball's pilot would take, wouldyou want to reward one of the pilots who helped them to stay in business by hiring them?
I guess you will get the answer to that question soon enough. But dont worry, there all still operators out there that will hire the alumni....they know what kind of pilots they are.
Good luck.
Oh wait, lets have a quick look.
TSB A02C0124... The Pilot departed without a working autopilot contrary to CARS.
The PIC did not carry adequate fuel.
The PIC flew the approach to high, to fast, and did not advise ATC of his critical situation in a timely manner.
2 people seriously hurt.
TSB A12C005. The Pilot conducted an approach to an airport that did not have IF rules in place , in adverse weather, and continued in icing conditions...4 fatal, including the pilot
No question in my mind this is 100% the company's fault. What were those poor pilot victims to do?
But of course that has all changed. All the pilots now stand up to the company and do not do any dangerous or illegal things....A bit confusing why you would say leaving was a blessiinh
I wish you no ill Magnetron but dont try to blow smoke up my butt. your integrity was pretty much gone when you went to work for them, and continued working for them.
The company only was able to continue to operate as long as they did because some pilots could rationalize working there. And as long as there are pilots that a re willing to do that, companies like this will continue to appear.
If you were running a company that paid and trated their pilots well, had an extensive training program, and had to deal with customers who wanted the same price as slimballs company, and had to cancel flights or limit loads that slimeball's pilot would take, wouldyou want to reward one of the pilots who helped them to stay in business by hiring them?
I guess you will get the answer to that question soon enough. But dont worry, there all still operators out there that will hire the alumni....they know what kind of pilots they are.
Good luck.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Keystone
I think the bigger issue here that everyone is overlooking is that the requlator has completely abandoned it's duties with regards to Keystone. The current environment in Canada allows these operators to endanger the travelling public and exploit young pilots that are just trying to get a foothold. Transport Canada is where the true shame lies.
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Re: Keystone
Last I heard the Operating Certificate is under suspension. Could it be that Transport Canada was the ones to do the deed? The wheels of justice turn too slow for some, and too fast for others, but thank goodness TC doesn't take policy from the fine council of AvCanada.
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.
Re: Keystone
Why even mention that? Makes you sound more desperate to have your view points accepted.Magnetron wrote: Having tried to work at some respectable airline only to get jumped in seniority on the ramp by a female pilot.
Everything comes in threes....
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Re: Keystone
I only accept employment offers that force my male counterparts to go work at sub-par operations.Magnetron wrote: Having tried to work at some respectable airline only to get jumped in seniority on the ramp by a female pilot. And so jumping on to the opportunity I got here.
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Re: Keystone


To the person who posted that, maybe she was just a better worker and more well liked and more respectable. Well, Clearly more respectable if you then left a reputable airline to work for these guys.
Re: Keystone
removed by poster
Last edited by Magnetron on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Keystone
Nobody "needs" PIC hours, left seat, right seat, I've found that work ethic, personality, how you sell yourself and who you know trump hours nine times out of ten. Exceptions are probably giant operations with HR departments, but they will always be around, working for sketchy operates may mean that your ass isn't always around.Magnetron wrote: They actually called me again this year for a flying position but I had just gotten captain and needed to make some pic hours.
E
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Re: Keystone
esp803, I'm sorry burst your bubble but you do need 250 PIC hours in order to get your ATPL. trey, your argument is irrelevant since you are using TSB examples from the past that don't even apply to us. Every time I flew with new copilots I told them the dangers of this type of flying, and to read up the accident reports to understand what happened and to never even get close to those scenarios. IMO, the company failed miserably by hiring inexperienced pilots from the VFR circuit who were never exposed to the type of Winter flying. I worked there after these accidents happened and quit before the latest one. So please, before you pull accident reports that don't involve us, leave them out of your argument. I was a PA31 copilot who transitioned to the King Air, and once the PA31 captain position was open, I felt ready because I had dealt with a lot of the weather and operational difficulties that came with the job.
I went there willingly and knowing that the reputation was down the gutter, but lugging bags at the "mean green" for another 2 or 3 more years wasn't my cup of tea. I had finally built my ATPL requirements while the rampie hired before me was still loading metros 3 years later, so I think I made a good move. I knew what kind of person the "boss" was and told myself, fly safe, don't let myself be told to do stuff outside CARs and POH limits, show up on time and treat customers, pilots and staff with respect, politely decline loads you felt uncomfortable flying, respected the weather and my personal limits and get good experience out of it SAFELY and get out.
Talking about pilots from Keystone, first hand information is that they lie within all corners of the industry, many at Calm Air, Canadian north, NCA, Air Asia, Air Transat, AC, WJ, Sunwing, Sky Regional and Jazz just to name a few.
trey, again you flip your opinion on someone if they got out. Since I did, you all of a sudden respect that. What if I still worked there? All of a sudden I still am unworthy of being in this industry? You have a very closed mind on things if that is the case. Enough of the bashing, aim it at the area it needs to be which is the sub-standard so called leadership of the "boss" and TC failing to shut him down earlier. Also, if you are able to put two and two together, get your facts straight and think about why the OC is currently pulled...
I went there willingly and knowing that the reputation was down the gutter, but lugging bags at the "mean green" for another 2 or 3 more years wasn't my cup of tea. I had finally built my ATPL requirements while the rampie hired before me was still loading metros 3 years later, so I think I made a good move. I knew what kind of person the "boss" was and told myself, fly safe, don't let myself be told to do stuff outside CARs and POH limits, show up on time and treat customers, pilots and staff with respect, politely decline loads you felt uncomfortable flying, respected the weather and my personal limits and get good experience out of it SAFELY and get out.
Talking about pilots from Keystone, first hand information is that they lie within all corners of the industry, many at Calm Air, Canadian north, NCA, Air Asia, Air Transat, AC, WJ, Sunwing, Sky Regional and Jazz just to name a few.
trey, again you flip your opinion on someone if they got out. Since I did, you all of a sudden respect that. What if I still worked there? All of a sudden I still am unworthy of being in this industry? You have a very closed mind on things if that is the case. Enough of the bashing, aim it at the area it needs to be which is the sub-standard so called leadership of the "boss" and TC failing to shut him down earlier. Also, if you are able to put two and two together, get your facts straight and think about why the OC is currently pulled...
Re: Keystone
Yes, if you want an ATPL you require 250hrs of PIC time. That being said I know MANY 5-10k hour pilots without ATPL's who make a very comfortable living at reputable companies, in places they want to live.
Working at a sketchy operator has more to it than just how you behave at the job, it's also how everybody else behaves. Did Billy-bob report over torquing those engines? How do you know he has been flying it at or below gross, what if something critical fails because of someone else mistreated the aircraft and for fear of being fired didn't report it. Just because you have a backbone, doesn't mean everybody else does, and that unfortunately can get you killed just as easily. Justify however you want, in the grand scheme of things after 10 or so years in the industry everybody can be at the same point regardless of the path they take.
E
Working at a sketchy operator has more to it than just how you behave at the job, it's also how everybody else behaves. Did Billy-bob report over torquing those engines? How do you know he has been flying it at or below gross, what if something critical fails because of someone else mistreated the aircraft and for fear of being fired didn't report it. Just because you have a backbone, doesn't mean everybody else does, and that unfortunately can get you killed just as easily. Justify however you want, in the grand scheme of things after 10 or so years in the industry everybody can be at the same point regardless of the path they take.
E
Re: Keystone
I know nothing of this company - but know a few just like it.....however this statement scares the sh*t out of me. You portray yourself as someone with integrity, but this makes it sound like you knowingly participated in crap flying.Every time I flew with new copilots I told them the dangers of this type of flying
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Re: Keystone
Flying pistons in IFR on a daily basis at all times of the year into remote areas can be dangerous that has to be acknowledged and understood in order to avoid making fatal decisions that others have made in the past. It is important to know this. When you take the CAA driving course when you first got your drivers license, half the course was showing videos of car crash victims and scenarios to properly demonstrate that having a drivers license is a privilege, and not a right that is to be abused. It was a scare tactic which worked for me.
As stated before, I took the job seriously with respect and taught my copilots to have the same attitude. And please define "crap flying"? Trust me, if the weather was questionable, I decide whether the aircraft was certified to fly in those conditions legally and if so, would I be overstepping my own limits, and if not then I go. We can ALL relate to some scary moments in our flying careers this far, but these moments become less until eventually you figure out your own limits based on experience and knowledge gained over the years.
The 703 world is like a chess game. If your not careful and use due diligence, you will not succeed. Many new pilots don't view it that way and unfortunately become a statistic. What can I do about it? As stated, talk to one another and listen. Explain situations and warn new pilots of potential hazards from company pressure to get-home-itis. Teach them how to overcome this, and over time, a mentality change should occur. I wish I could coach more people to enter the 703 world with a positive and SAFE attitude, but that won't happen since there are no paid jobs that allow me to do that unless I became chief pilot.
If you know your stuff, flying pistons in a work environment like ours, it CAN be done safely. In order to do this, one needs to be educated, be able to say NO when the time comes, get rid of the attitude of "oh I have to get this done to show I'm the one who gets it done", be able to turn around in mid-flight when the weather is below minima without being scared of the repercussions of negative management feedback, take all your experience and be able to reflect back on it and constantly improve your decision making skills.
Many people on here I believe throw out accusations collectively assuming every one of us are and will be jeopardizing flight safety. To me, that is a very uneducated assumption, so stop. Sit back, think about stuff you plan to say. Again, I am only defending those, me inclusive, that went to work every day and tried to make a difference. Try to get to know me again before you blast out uneducated comments behind a computer screen.
As stated before, I took the job seriously with respect and taught my copilots to have the same attitude. And please define "crap flying"? Trust me, if the weather was questionable, I decide whether the aircraft was certified to fly in those conditions legally and if so, would I be overstepping my own limits, and if not then I go. We can ALL relate to some scary moments in our flying careers this far, but these moments become less until eventually you figure out your own limits based on experience and knowledge gained over the years.
The 703 world is like a chess game. If your not careful and use due diligence, you will not succeed. Many new pilots don't view it that way and unfortunately become a statistic. What can I do about it? As stated, talk to one another and listen. Explain situations and warn new pilots of potential hazards from company pressure to get-home-itis. Teach them how to overcome this, and over time, a mentality change should occur. I wish I could coach more people to enter the 703 world with a positive and SAFE attitude, but that won't happen since there are no paid jobs that allow me to do that unless I became chief pilot.
If you know your stuff, flying pistons in a work environment like ours, it CAN be done safely. In order to do this, one needs to be educated, be able to say NO when the time comes, get rid of the attitude of "oh I have to get this done to show I'm the one who gets it done", be able to turn around in mid-flight when the weather is below minima without being scared of the repercussions of negative management feedback, take all your experience and be able to reflect back on it and constantly improve your decision making skills.
Many people on here I believe throw out accusations collectively assuming every one of us are and will be jeopardizing flight safety. To me, that is a very uneducated assumption, so stop. Sit back, think about stuff you plan to say. Again, I am only defending those, me inclusive, that went to work every day and tried to make a difference. Try to get to know me again before you blast out uneducated comments behind a computer screen.
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Re: Keystone
Hey guys. Don't worry about anything bad happening, just SMS it...it will all be okay. If Transport wanted to make things really safe, they would still have a way of reporting hazards directly to transport and have an inspector show up without a couple days notification.
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Re: Keystone
I hate to disappoint you but they used to do it that way and there were even more shoddy operators and more accidents.oxfordhouse wrote:Hey guys. Don't worry about anything bad happening, just SMS it...it will all be okay. If Transport wanted to make things really safe, they would still have a way of reporting hazards directly to transport and have an inspector show up without a couple days notification.
The best thing that's happened is that the customers want nicer more expensive planes like King Airs vs Aztecs and Navajos. This has removed a bunch of crap operators who can't afford King Airs
Re: Keystone
I worked for Keystone and don't remember being willing to do anything. Actually Keystone wasn't the worst job I ever had, the previous company was. Flew 1000 hours a year and single pilot IFR develops the decision making immensely. Yes they pushed, yes they were hard to deal with. Transport knew what goes on there because people would tell them yet nothing got done. The worst was having one yes man who would do anything that was asked, and make the rest of the safe pilots look bad.trey kule wrote:Don't feel bad. Those "great people" who are willing to do anything and fly and join a scumbag gang are as much of a problem as any dodgey operator. The emphasis should be on both.Feel bad for some of the great people there who are just trying to make it in this industry. Emphasis on employees, not employer.
trey you also say anyone whose worked there shouldn't even be in the industry. If you ever end up in a transport category jet maybe keep those comments to yourself because the airlines are full of ex keystone people, some are even on the hiring boards. Also the people who work there are just taking the only job they can get. I find your posts arrogant
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Re: Keystone
Always nice to see something positive in this industry. Enough backstabbing and bitching on here to fill a book!
RIP
TOMBSTONE
Good to see the last of you.
I hope.
Illya
RIP
TOMBSTONE
Good to see the last of you.
I hope.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: Keystone
Welcome back, I thought you vanished off the face of the earth.
Re: Keystone
All things being relative, there has to be a shadiest well-known operator. Who is it going to be now?