RAIC - brush with the law

[Localizer]

Everyone in this industry should be very concerned. You will lose your RAIC for nothing more then being friends with someone who has a criminal record. That's it .... It's insane!



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... k=sf_globe

[B208]

Records gained under the young offenders act don't show up on the level of background check used for a RAIC. This is something I have dealt with first hand on several occasions.

[cncpc]

I'll try this again.

Here is an exercise which may or may not be of assistance in discussion about how frail your livelihood may be when decisions are made about your RAIC.

Here's a picture of a hockey player. Have a close look at it. Make an initial assessment of this person's judgement, trustworthiness, and reliability. Let's say she is a new hire copilot looking for a RAIC. It's not the Somali woman who lost her RAIC.

avcanadadiscussion.jpg (16.58 KiB) Viewed 2469 times

[cncpc]

Here's a bit more.

She is reluctant to divulge certain details. Evasive, but not uncommon.

She has a very minor record of infractions of rules, with a possibility of minor violence being involved, but a completely clear criminal record. Within the framework of a society in which people are judged fairly and on evidence and standards and in the absence of arbitrary and specious judgements, she appears to be an exemplary person.

It is not known if she made enquiries of who her teammates may have associated with, or if they are related to any Hell's Angels or other "organized" crime figures. In truth, how would she know that. And, like family, you can't choose your teammates.

[cncpc]

So far, at least 15 people have looked at the picture. No comments, from which I conclude no concerns? That is by the current standards of RAIC denials or cancellations?

[cncpc]

Let's carry this further. The bit so far was all true, but this part is hypothetical.

Let's say our Minister of Transport, Marc Garneau, denies her RAIC and ends her dreams of an airline career. He says he has "concerns" about her judgement and trustworthiness given the reports of her rule breaking, the possible involvement in some violent incidents, and her reluctance to be forthright in divulging details of her personal life. In the decision, it is also revealed that one of her teammates on two occasions travelled to Cuba with a man who had carried out roof repairs on a house belonging to a man suspected of being someone who once visited Mike Duffy's Prince Edward Island cottage.

Again, hypothetically, she applied to the Federal Court for review of the Minister's decision. She argued that the rule violations cited were in fact three penalties in the Minto women's hockey league over two seasons and that they happened 8 years ago and she hasn't had a penalty since. She acknowledged that she was evasive when asked her age for the team program, but pointed out that most women of her age would do the same thing. She also argued that the concerns were not rationally based in the context of the aviation security regulations. She, or her lawyer, said those regulations aren't meant to regulate anything to do with how one plays hockey or what one reveals in a team program, as that is not a predictor of whether one will hijack an airplane or harm it if given access to a restricted area. She also pointed out that the regulations do not specifically require the Minister to make judgements about judgement, trustworthiness, or reliability, as those judgements would almost always come up negative about most Canadians if that was the intent of the person judging.

Counsel for the Attorney General of Canada argues that Parliament has entrusted the Minister with ensuring that air travel remains safe for Canadians. He submitted that the Federal Court has consistently found that the legislation allows the Minister a wide discretion on whether to grant or refuse a pass and the Courts have always declined to interfere in that decision. The Federal Court agreed and refused the relief sought in the review.

Have a look at the woman. Do you feel sympathy for her? Are you worried that something similar could happen to you, given that the Federal Court has left you completely vulnerable and incapable of challenging this police state approach to demolishing your life?

[cncpc]

No sympathy for the woman? Pretty appropriate, actually. That's because the woman is Brenda Hensler Hobbs, the woman who, in Marc Garneau's name, is behind all of these pass denials for reasons not notably dissimilar than the circumstances in her own life. Other than that we don't know if any of her team mates actually had any connection to Mike Duffy's cottage.

Unless there are two women named Brenda Hensler Hobbs in the Ottawa area, in which case all I can say to this woman is, "Sorry, wrong person. Keep your stick on the ice."

Look long and hard at this woman. As hard as it may seem to believe, if you need a RAIC to earn a living, she is the one looking at you. A woman with purple dyed hair, wearing earrings in a hockey game, and apparently unable to exercise the judgement to pick a jersey anywhere's near the proper size. Mind you, that was 8 years ago. However, by her own standards, she probably wouldn't be satisfied that you had shown any change in that 8 years. If ever.

Nothing in this series of posts implies that Brenda Hensler Hobbs is anything but a good and valuable member of Canadian society. However, as she is a public official, and one who appears to be arbitrarily bringing misery to the lives of many innocent people, and disgrace to the Minister's office and Marc Garneau, it is fair comment to make these observations as to how she carries out her role with our tax dollars and in what is not supposed to be a police state.

Now, that's me done for a Sunday morning. Time for some pancakes.

[cncpc]

http://mintomustang.tripod.com/brendahenslerhobbs.html

It was actually four penalties.

[human garbage]

Risk management in security has always meant dealing with intangibles and inferences. Not much black and white, just a bunch of grey...

[Localizer]

Yes risk management is grey, but it also requires common sense. Everyone has a dip shit friend that does stupid things, do you really believe your RAIC should be pulled for someone else's behaviour? Or because you did something stupid yourself that drew a police contact now makes you a member of organized crime??

I agree the program has a purpose, but the size of the net is getting out of control. The human element is being ignored, people make mistakes .. It doesn't mean they're going to join the mafia, Isis, or anything else.

It all seems a little too 1984 to me .. Those that don't know 1984 - George Orwell big brothers watching!

[midwingcrisis]

http://www.therebel.media/exclusive_num ... kers_fired

[Meatservo]

"The Rebel" is not a legitimate news source. But I guess if it's good enough for all the weirdo gun nuts on "face book", it's good enough for "AvCanada".

[cncpc]

"The Rebel" is not a legitimate news source. But I guess if it's good enough for all the weirdo gun nuts on "face book", it's good enough for "AvCanada".

No, you are right. It's not a legitimate news source. It the Readers Digest for yahoos.

I thought they were going to go on about the civil liberties issues that arise when you deny jobs and take away jobs on gossip and suspicions and the concerns of some space cadet with purple died hair from people who have been convicted of nothing, or even if they have, nothing that would bring a sane person to believe they posed a threat to the safety of aviation.

These arseholes think that the safety of aviation means stopping garden variety crime around airports. That's the job of the real police.

[midwingcrisis]

Meatservo and cncpc ....What would you consider a legitimate news source ? The Rebel took the initiative to get to the bottom of the issue. I await Rebel's report

[7ECA]

Ezra Levant - a legitimate news source?

[cncpc]

Meatservo and cncpc ....What would you consider a legitimate news source ? The Rebel took the initiative to get to the bottom of the issue. I await Rebel's report

The Guardian
anything by Bob Keating on CBC Radio

It didn't take the initiative. Or get to the bottom of the issue. It took a serious issue of human rights, presumption of innocence, freedom from a police state, freedom from judgement by a Canadian version of a purple haired Nancy Grace, and implied the level of wrongful police state behaviour by the government WASN'T high enough.

What are you going to do if you lose or are denied a RAIC because some twit says you displayed poor judgement by claiming the Rebel was a news source? Because it isn't much of a leap from what is already going on.

Are you in Alberta?

This is who is deciding on your red pass? Kapish el problema?

avcanadadiscussion.jpg (16.58 KiB) Viewed 1806 times

[single_swine_herder]

"The Rebel" is not a legitimate news source. But I guess if it's good enough for all the weirdo gun nuts on "face book", it's good enough for "AvCanada".

So OK .... I have to congratulate Mr. Levant on having investigated the situation regarding security clearance issues.

Although in your personal opinion of some AvCanada posters "The Rebel" isn't a so-called "legitimate" news source, what about this particular segment regarding aviation security clearances do you take exception to?

Be very specific in your reply please.

Are you alleging the letter sent in response to an Access To Information Request by Transport Canada and displayed on-screen was fabricated for some nefarious reason?

That the numbers of persons with security clearance issues displayed on screen which had been excerpted from that letter were intentionally manipulated as a part of a disinformation campaign of some mysterious form?

Or does your personal bias prevents you from accepting the information because you don't like his suit, his name, or whatever it is that bothers you sufficiently to declare the information totally null and void?

SSH

[Localizer]

What they should have answered was the reason for the cancellation or refusal. I'm certain the reason they didn't answer that question is because people would go "Huh?". The general public assumes those cancellations/refusals are related to terrorism/organized crime .. They're not, that's the problem.

[cncpc]

What they should have answered was the reason for the cancellation or refusal. I'm certain the reason they didn't answer that question is because people would go "Huh?". The general public assumes those cancellations/refusals are related to terrorism/organized crime .. They're not, that's the problem.

Exactly. Even if each one in a million chance of every necessary event in a yer one's fantasized chain of events actually did happen, the end of that chain still isn't anything that affects aviation security, that is to say it does not pose a danger to aircraft or passengers. There is no logical, no fair and just basis for which you lose your job, or can't even get one with denial of a red pass.

This process is an extension of your garden variety law enforcement. If you waterboard the sons of bitches behind it, they'll eventually gurgle out that they're worried someone might bring a bag of weed onto a plane. And tell you the destruction of people's lives is an unhappy but necessary tradeoff to stop that from happening.

[Meatservo]

"The Rebel" is not a legitimate news source. But I guess if it's good enough for all the weirdo gun nuts on "face book", it's good enough for "AvCanada".

So OK .... I have to congratulate Mr. Levant on having investigated the situation regarding security clearance issues.

Although in your personal opinion of some AvCanada posters "The Rebel" isn't a so-called "legitimate" news source, what about this particular segment regarding aviation security clearances do you take exception to?

Be very specific in your reply please.

Are you alleging the letter sent in response to an Access To Information Request by Transport Canada and displayed on-screen was fabricated for some nefarious reason?

That the numbers of persons with security clearance issues displayed on screen which had been excerpted from that letter were intentionally manipulated as a part of a disinformation campaign of some mysterious form?

Or does your personal bias prevents you from accepting the information because you don't like his suit, his name, or whatever it is that bothers you sufficiently to declare the information totally null and void?

SSH

Well, Single Swine Herder, I am surprised at your reaction here because your posts normally show you to be a pretty smart guy. I urge you to watch Ezra Levant's video again. I am not sure how you are able to call what was being presented by Mr. Levant "information".

Here is what I saw. I saw a response to the request made by the "Rebel". In this response, I saw that the number of RAIC passes that had been revoked or refused has increased in recent years.

From this, Mr. Levant is somehow able to draw the conclusion that Justin Trudeau is not serious about security. He manages convey this opinion mostly through reading the facts over and over again in a wheedling, insinuating tone, drawing a meaningless conclusion and finishing with an attack on the Prime Minister.

From my perspective as a non-partisan voter (I don't identify fully with the right or the left) Mr. Levant's offerings on the Rebel appear to be nothing more than endless anti-Trudeau rhetoric spewed forth in the guise of "news" which is presented as insinuatingly as possible while somehow failing to convey any meaningful information. In fact in this presentation I am utterly unable to figure out exactly what Levant is even getting at. Does he think they should have revoked more security passes, or fewer security passes? I can't even tell. In the end, his point is a non-sequitur: "The government has revoked more security passes... because Justin Trudeau."


If you call this "news", then I am afraid you and I interpret that word differently! You asked me to be very specific, so here you go:

Q: Are you alleging the letter sent in response to an Access To Information Request by Transport Canada and displayed on-screen was fabricated for some nefarious reason?

A: No

Q: That the numbers of persons with security clearance issues displayed on screen which had been excerpted from that letter were intentionally manipulated as a part of a disinformation campaign of some mysterious form?

A: No

Q: Or does your personal bias prevents you from accepting the information because you don't like his suit, his name, or whatever it is that bothers you sufficiently to declare the information totally null and void?

A: No, although I would like to ask Mr. Levant that EXACT question with regard to Mr. Trudeau jr.

If I wanted to, I could take the information received from Transport Canada and presented by Mr. Levant, and make a very valid point that it's obvious to me that the Trudeau government has managed to catch a bunch of bad guys that the Harper government failed to catch in previous years! How did this conclusion manage to evade Mr. Levant's scintillating intellect?

Because Justin Trudeau, that's why.

"The Rebel" is nothing but right-wing partisan horse shit.

[cncpc]

"The Rebel" is not a legitimate news source. But I guess if it's good enough for all the weirdo gun nuts on "face book", it's good enough for "AvCanada".

So OK .... I have to congratulate Mr. Levant on having investigated the situation regarding security clearance issues.

Although in your personal opinion of some AvCanada posters "The Rebel" isn't a so-called "legitimate" news source, what about this particular segment regarding aviation security clearances do you take exception to?

Be very specific in your reply please.

Are you alleging the letter sent in response to an Access To Information Request by Transport Canada and displayed on-screen was fabricated for some nefarious reason?

That the numbers of persons with security clearance issues displayed on screen which had been excerpted from that letter were intentionally manipulated as a part of a disinformation campaign of some mysterious form?

Or does your personal bias prevents you from accepting the information because you don't like his suit, his name, or whatever it is that bothers you sufficiently to declare the information totally null and void?

SSH

Well, Single Swine Herder, I am surprised at your reaction here because your posts normally show you to be a pretty smart guy. I urge you to watch Ezra Levant's video again. I am not sure how you are able to call what was being presented by Mr. Levant "information".

Here is what I saw. I saw a response to the request made by the "Rebel". In this response, I saw that the number of RAIC passes that had been revoked or refused has increased in recent years.

From this, Mr. Levant is somehow able to draw the conclusion that Justin Trudeau is not serious about security. He manages convey this opinion mostly through reading the facts over and over again in a wheedling, insinuating tone, drawing a meaningless conclusion and finishing with an attack on the Prime Minister.

From my perspective as a non-partisan voter (I don't identify fully with the right or the left) Mr. Levant's offerings on the Rebel appear to be nothing more than endless anti-Trudeau rhetoric spewed forth in the guise of "news" which is presented as insinuatingly as possible while somehow failing to convey any meaningful information. In fact in this presentation I am utterly unable to figure out exactly what Levant is even getting at. Does he think they should have revoked more security passes, or fewer security passes? I can't even tell. In the end, his point is a non-sequitur: "The government has revoked more security passes... because Justin Trudeau."


If you call this "news", then I am afraid you and I interpret that word differently! You asked me to be very specific, so here you go:

Q: Are you alleging the letter sent in response to an Access To Information Request by Transport Canada and displayed on-screen was fabricated for some nefarious reason?

A: No

Q: That the numbers of persons with security clearance issues displayed on screen which had been excerpted from that letter were intentionally manipulated as a part of a disinformation campaign of some mysterious form?

A: No

Q: Or does your personal bias prevents you from accepting the information because you don't like his suit, his name, or whatever it is that bothers you sufficiently to declare the information totally null and void?

A: No, although I would like to ask Mr. Levant that EXACT question with regard to Mr. Trudeau jr.

If I wanted to, I could take the information received from Transport Canada and presented by Mr. Levant, and make a very valid point that it's obvious to me that the Trudeau government has managed to catch a bunch of bad guys that the Harper government failed to catch in previous years! How did this conclusion manage to evade Mr. Levant's scintillating intellect?

Because Justin Trudeau, that's why.

"The Rebel" is nothing but horse shit.

Excellent response. I have no problem saying that SSH is a smart and excellent contributor here, but this was an unfortunate deviation from that.

The Rebel? Really. I'm Irish, and you have no idea what a rebel is, Ezra, you fat poser. Pandering to yahoos is not being a rebel. It's being an asshole.

[midwingcrisis]

flyingblind...OP on this thread, I wish you well in your RAIC application, if for some reason you are not, touching base with your local MP may help. cncpc...I wont eat chocolates from Bob Keating and will use your advice. I voluntarily support The Rebel but cannot say the same for the CBC. human garbage...got it, my descendants fought against anti King type Rebels from 1776-1783. That's why I'm here. If I find a copy of the FOI appeal, I will post on this thread

[single_swine_herder]

Its comforting to know that at one time I was highly regarded here.

I'll get myself to the Emergency Room because I have evidently suffered a previously undetected circulatory system event which has affected by cognitive abilities.

Heaven forbid my decades in the media and aviation should carry any significance while advocating that differing editorial views are welcome in Canada.

Accept it or not .... each and every media outlet has a bias, some more overt than others.

The Rebel belongs in Canadian society just as much as posts by The Communist Party of Canada, so-called "deniers" of global warming, David Suzuki Foundation advocates, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting who shill for the CBC, and anyone else to decides they have a message to put before the public.

[cncpc]

The Rebel belongs in Canadian society just as much as posts by The Communist Party of Canada, so-called "deniers" of global warming, David Suzuki Foundation advocates, Friends of Canadian Broadcasting who shill for the CBC, and anyone else to decides they have a message to put before the public.

Not in dispute. What is in dispute is the claim that it was a reputable news source and particularly in the context of the very serious issue of people who are no threat to aviation security being denied red passes and the chance to participate in Canadian society? The purpose of that "news" was to discredit the Prime Minister, while overlooking the clear truth if there was an issue, it was created by the previous government.

Sure it belongs in Canadian society. So does Marmite.

[B208]

Meatservo and cncpc ....What would you consider a legitimate news source ? The Rebel took the initiative to get to the bottom of the issue. I await Rebel's report

The Guardian
anything by Bob Keating on CBC Radio

Dude, CBC is as spacey as the Rebel, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. My advice is to read both and then look in between them to get closer to the truth.