Strega wrote:This is why you should train for events that hopefully will never happen, it the most realistic means possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.

Aviation kills kids.

While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)

BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.

.

Strega wrote:"Concentrate on the accuracy
of the checks rather than the speed at which they are performed"

I disagree with this...time is of the essence when dealing with an engine failure -especially moments after take off.

At the end of the OP video the instructor says this - "There is no emergency, no matter how serious, that cannot be messed up and made worse by going too fast". True words. Big airplanes have crashed because the crew went too fast and reduced power or shut down the good engine. Accurate is better than fast and wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yBA7qqgnig
http://www.itv.com/news/central/2014-01 ... -kegworth/

Strega wrote:I was turning off the fuel moments after a take off in the air..

Surely not. Tell me I'm misunderstanding this statement and you didn't really turn off the fuel on one engine moments after takeoff. Do you mean you brought the throttle back to idle?

Strega wrote: Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them

Who said I had trouble starting engines?

In terms of how engines work: what temperature was your fuel pump, and what temperature does avgas vaporise at, and how does your fuel system handle vapour lock? Was fuel shut-off and restart tested during the certification process? Is there a procedure for in-flight restart in the POH? Bear in mind there will be reduced cooling airflow due to your reduced airspeed, and the fuel is more likely to vaporise when it's sitting in the fuel lines/pump rather than flowing.

Rookie50 wrote:

Strega wrote:This is why you should train for events that hopefully will never happen, it the most realistic means possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.

Aviation kills kids.

While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)

BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.

Duly noted.

CpnCrunch wrote:

Strega wrote: Maybe learn how your engines work, and you wont have any issues re starting them

Who said I had trouble starting engines?

In terms of how engines work: what temperature was your fuel pump, and what temperature does avgas vaporise at, and how does your fuel system handle vapour lock? Was fuel shut-off and restart tested during the certification process? Is there a procedure for in-flight restart in the POH? Bear in mind there will be reduced cooling airflow due to your reduced airspeed, and the fuel is more likely to vaporise when it's sitting in the fuel lines/pump rather than flowing.

This was not directed at you, but rather pilots in general. Find me an accident of a small piston twin that was caused by vapor lock of avgas in flight.

Thx

cpn crunch and rookie..

Have either of you had an engine failure on a ME airplane in flight or after take off?

Y/N please.

Thx

Strega wrote:
I was turning off the fuel moments after a take off in the air..


Surely not. Tell me I'm misunderstanding this statement and you didn't really turn off the fuel on one engine moments after takeoff. Do you mean you brought the throttle back to idle?

What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.

This has happened to me (EFATO) and I thank my mentors for teaching me correctly

I would never do this at surface, or shut an engine down when in the middle of no where.. All my shut downs are typically over an airport.

is Bob hoover "not very smart" ? (as you say I am)

Not at all. I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for the man. Having said that his stunt is part of an airshow, sponsored and I assume engines are completely checked before each performance and likely even a motostat done as well. He does it for a living and in warm weather but to subject a commercially operated aircraft to no power, prop driving engine is just plain bad judgement unless it's done as indicated above as a requirement of a test flight. If that's the case I'm sure engines are inspected after the fact.

What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.

Pretty ballze move. Why would you do that rather than just reach over and simulate the power loss. I have to wonder if it's more for your ego. Careful you might do that to someone someday and you will end up flat on your back after you land - just sayin'

Strega wrote:cpn crunch and rookie..

Have either of you had an engine failure on a ME airplane in flight or after take off?

Y/N please.

Thx

Zero ME experience. (As I believe I indicated).

Strega wrote:

Rookie50 wrote:

Strega wrote:This is why you should train for events that hopefully will never happen, it the most realistic means possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqmomTUVsAw

FYI this is basically how big pistons wound up inverted, luckily for his students sake, he had some altitude under him.

Aviation kills kids.

While your thread may have a purpose Strega you don't inspire confidence or respect repeatedly using it to berate BPF's situation and (instant) choices, correct or not --( I wasn't there, and know nothing of ME recovery)

BPF has told that story himself in detail. Why not leave it there.

Duly noted.

Please note it well. Thanks.

Strega wrote:What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.

I really hope you live to see retirement.

Rookie50 wrote:

Strega wrote:cpn crunch and rookie..

Have either of you had an engine failure on a ME airplane in flight or after take off?

Y/N please.

Thx

Zero ME experience. (As I believe I indicated).

Do you think it is appropriate for you to be posting in a thread about ME training and failures?

Y/N

B208 wrote:

Strega wrote:What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.

I really hope you live to see retirement.

Please explain to me this post? as it appears to be a troll on me.

Strega wrote:

Do you think it is appropriate for you to be posting in a thread about ME training and failures?

Its appropriate for anyone to post, regardless of experience. Its the purpose of a forum after all, especially in the spirit of an open one. Its funny that some may feel this is not a free forum, but then would limit it for others. In this case, neither CPn crunch nor Rookie have posted anything outlandish or unreasonable within the subject of ME training or failures, and if they have, feel free to debate their points, as opposed to attack their experience.

If you wish a real debate on this, lets start clean, and lets have the entire story about this training session with this pilot. I'd be interested to know if this was a formal session (that is to say for company refresher or similar) or was it private one on one training. What was the level of the pilot you were training, how was the emergency simulation briefed before the flight and what type of aircraft? What was your assessment of the student prior to the flight? Did you have experience with flying with them before? What was the student's experience level?

What was the student's experience level?

-- same question for the "instructor"

springlocked wrote:

What was the student's experience level?

-- same question for the "instructor"

Please, we must be realistic, we're not going to get that answer. Nor really should we expect it. I would actually prefer not to judge based upon his perceived (by the reader here) experience level.

Strega wrote:

B208 wrote:

Strega wrote:What I do is climb to 5000 agl and slow down to Vr, and then simulate a TO with Gear and Flaps down, Once positive rate is achieved again (throttles wide open but only making about 60% power at the altitude around here) I cut the fuel. You want to see someone scramble... if you know what you are doing, its no issue,, if you dont,, you are in bit shit.

I really hope you live to see retirement.

Please explain to me this post? as it appears to be a troll on me.

Nope, no troll. If you are going to do things like that in a twin you are going to need all the positive vibes you can get sent your way.

Strega wrote:

Rookie50 wrote:

Strega wrote:cpn crunch and rookie..

Have either of you had an engine failure on a ME airplane in flight or after take off?

Y/N please.

Thx

Zero ME experience. (As I believe I indicated).

Do you think it is appropriate for you to be posting in a thread about ME training and failures?

Y/N

Sure does.

You've chosen, and I've only questioned, your choice to inappropriately change it to a attack on BPF's situation, (from long ago) instead of accepting the spotlight on your actions with your student. You opened that door, and I sure can comment on that aspect.


Unlike referencing BPF, you started this thread and introduced your training methods. Therefore cross examination of those is completely warranted.

Take that like a professional, respond to it alone, without any comment on what someone else did.

Rookie,

Can you answer my question regarding your experience with ME aircraft?

Thx.

Strega wrote:Rookie,

Can you answer my question regarding your experience with ME aircraft?

Thx.

I haven't commented on ME operations.

But FWIW, you started this thread. Your role is to answer questions, about it -- not ask them.

While we're on the subject, what is your total instructional experience on the exact model of aircraft being instructed on? That's an instructional question, not a ME question. Just curious.

You've chosen, and I've only questioned, your choice to inappropriately change it to a attack on BPF's situation, (from long ago) instead of accepting the spotlight on your actions with your student. You opened that door, and I sure can comment on that aspect.


Unlike referencing BPF, you started this thread and introduced your training methods. Therefore cross examination of those is completely warranted.

Take that like a professional, respond to it alone, without any comment on what someone else did.

I did not "attack" anyone, I simply referenced what not to do, and someone that has presented an example as such.

I will gladly accept the actions of myself and my "student"...I will sleep well knowing he will be alive if an engine quits just after T/O.

Im still waiting for someone to tell me a case of an accident caused by shutting off the fuel in a light twin, that resulted in a shut down. and as well, how simulating this with thousands of feet of altitude below you has caused an accident (with a competent instructor on board)

I am happy to show examples of fatal accidents (similar to the video I posted) that are the result of poor aircraft handling, and failing to deal with an critical emergency immediately following take off.

While we're on the subject, what is your total instructional experience on the exact model of aircraft being instructed on? That's an instructional question, not a ME question. Just curious.

On that specific model of 310? zero. On 300 series cessnas in general. Lots.

Unlike referencing BPF, you started this thread and introduced your training methods. Therefore cross examination of those is completely warranted.

The procedure Strega has described is very safe.

That is my opinion and I have been training pilots for over half a century on multi engine airplanes...for thousands of hours.

And I never ever lost control while training.

Edited.

Cat,

Have you ever had to feather an engine because you shut off the fuel, and it wouldnt light again once you turned it back on?


This seems to be a new phenomenon.