slob driver wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:23 pm
To the Transat pilots,
Looks like a match to wj on the nb rates, which is a substantial uplift from before ( the previous trz 737 rates were used as the template for Swoop pay rates). These rates put pressure on Sunwing to raise their rates. A great pattern. The blended wb rates is a good score for a320 pilots, which should hopefully help other a320/321 pilots in Canada (ac/rouge). A little lower than wj 787 rates, and still room to go to ac a330 rates, however moving the bar in a positive direction.
I congratulate the gains made. Now hopefully those rates survive what’s going on now.
Signed
Wja 737 pilot
The NB rates are exactly the 2020 737 Westjet hourly rates. The WB is an improvement upon the current Transat rates with the top scale rates matching Westjet with a few exceptions for the FO scales.
The 321/330 are grouped since 2017 when the company launched an Airbus MFF program (Multi Fleet Flying). That program is not fully implemented and the company can stop it at any time. At that point, the two types would be de-grouped and 321 pilots put on the NB scale.
Hopefully we dragged some rates up enough to get others the opportunity to do the same in their negotiations. Especially in the FO rates, where we will have the best 4 first years if the TA is ratified by membership.
We wont let you away with straight ratio. It will be penalty plus ratio.
Example 4 years YOS penalty then straight 7 to 1 ratio.
Bottom of the list wont happen, no AC pilot is seriously thinking that. Its got to be fair for both sides.
Problem is... TS pilots dont have much to lose.
FL-280 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 am
We wont let you away with straight ratio. It will be penalty plus ratio.
Example 4 years YOS penalty then straight 7 to 1 ratio.
Bottom of the list wont happen, no AC pilot is seriously thinking that. Its got to be fair for both sides.
Problem is... TS pilots dont have much to lose.
You are mostly correct. Dust off the arbitration panel awards for the last decade (US) and you will see a fairly consistent methodology. For like-and-like it is a ratio adjusted for volume of high paying positions brought to the merger. For like-and-not-like the ratio only applies after reserved numbers at the top for high paying positions only coming from one side.
First thing that parties need to do is identify the snapshot date. The arguments will flow from there.
In the case of AC and TS, it is obvious that the AC 330/787/777 jobs are much higher value, particularly when you factor in the overrides. The TS positions are effectively equivalent to AC NB jobs. However, the Rouge positions are currently worth less than both TS (all) and AC NB.
The market is now looking sceptically at the AC/TRZ transaction. The 99% likelihood of consummation may now be closer to 75%. All of the discourse on this board may be for not.
Either way, what the TS pilots have been able to achieve with their current rates and CCQ is a positive step for all, particularly when you consider they are employed by a subsidiary of a leisure company.
FL-280 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 am
We wont let you away with straight ratio. It will be penalty plus ratio.
Example 4 years YOS penalty then straight 7 to 1 ratio.
Bottom of the list wont happen, no AC pilot is seriously thinking that. Its got to be fair for both sides.
Problem is... TS pilots dont have much to lose.
You are mostly correct. Dust off the arbitration panel awards for the last decade (US) and you will see a fairly consistent methodology. For like-and-like it is a ratio adjusted for volume of high paying positions brought to the merger. For like-and-not-like the ratio only applies after reserved numbers at the top for high paying positions only coming from one side.
First thing that parties need to do is identify the snapshot date. The arguments will flow from there.
In the case of AC and TS, it is obvious that the AC 330/787/777 jobs are much higher value, particularly when you factor in the overrides. The TS positions are effectively equivalent to AC NB jobs. However, the Rouge positions are currently worth less than both TS (all) and AC NB.
The market is now looking sceptically at the AC/TRZ transaction. The 99% likelihood of consummation may now be closer to 75%. All of the discourse on this board may be for not.
Either way, what the TS pilots have been able to achieve with their current rates and CCQ is a positive step for all, particularly when you consider they are employed by a subsidiary of a leisure company.
Agree. But I’m curious about your rational for this statement.
However, the Rouge positions are currently worth less than both TS (all) and AC NB.
I am personally not a Rouge fan.
However some of the Rouge pilots have been the highest paid in the company. Yes working overtime. But some place a large, I mean large value on the ability to do overtime.
The 767 is absolutely an outlier in hourly pay but the 320 is pretty close to Mainline.
Some love socialized bidding and would like see the entire airline socialized.
FL-280 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 am
We wont let you away with straight ratio. It will be penalty plus ratio.
Example 4 years YOS penalty then straight 7 to 1 ratio.
Bottom of the list wont happen, no AC pilot is seriously thinking that. Its got to be fair for both sides.
Problem is... TS pilots dont have much to lose.
You are mostly correct. Dust off the arbitration panel awards for the last decade (US) and you will see a fairly consistent methodology. For like-and-like it is a ratio adjusted for volume of high paying positions brought to the merger. For like-and-not-like the ratio only applies after reserved numbers at the top for high paying positions only coming from one side.
First thing that parties need to do is identify the snapshot date. The arguments will flow from there.
In the case of AC and TS, it is obvious that the AC 330/787/777 jobs are much higher value, particularly when you factor in the overrides. The TS positions are effectively equivalent to AC NB jobs. However, the Rouge positions are currently worth less than both TS (all) and AC NB.
The market is now looking sceptically at the AC/TRZ transaction. The 99% likelihood of consummation may now be closer to 75%. All of the discourse on this board may be for not.
Either way, what the TS pilots have been able to achieve with their current rates and CCQ is a positive step for all, particularly when you consider they are employed by a subsidiary of a leisure company.
I'm curious what airline mergers have used a discount and ratio in the past 10-15 years? I have all of them on hand none of those methods ring a bell, if you could narrow my search that would be greatly appreciated.
derateNO wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:48 am
They can get right fucked.
That's what top half of the list has been doing to the bottom half of the list at airlines for the last 50 years....
Isn't it just great when they reach over after the end of a pairing and say "thanks for a good flight, and thanks for paying for my pension" as they tap your shoulder like papa ganoush.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:15 am
I'm curious what airline mergers have used a discount and ratio in the past 10-15 years? I have all of them on hand none of those methods ring a bell, if you could narrow my search that would be greatly appreciated.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:15 am
I'm curious what airline mergers have used a discount and ratio in the past 10-15 years? I have all of them on hand none of those methods ring a bell, if you could narrow my search that would be greatly appreciated.
Take a look at AS/VX and AA/US
I've not seen a discount for longevity to start in either of those reports. Both based their final list on variable weight categories using softwares. As an example Alaska and Virgin was ordered with 60% for longevity and 40% stays and category. The two groups had a big difference in longevity, Alaska argued for a 70/30 model as 64% of their pilots were more senior to Virgin pilots.
TFTMB heavy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:15 am
I'm curious what airline mergers have used a discount and ratio in the past 10-15 years? I have all of them on hand none of those methods ring a bell, if you could narrow my search that would be greatly appreciated.
Take a look at AS/VX and AA/US
I've not seen a discount for longevity to start in either of those reports. Both based their final list on variable weight categories using softwares. As an example Alaska and Virgin was ordered with 60% for longevity and 40% stays and category. The two groups had a big difference in longevity, Alaska argued for a 70/30 model as 64% of their pilots were more senior to Virgin pilots.
AA-US used rations in different groups.
Correct. A weighted formula with 2 factors has become the norm.
First factor - longevity
Second factor - status and category.
The arbitrators then examine the other factors (i.e. career expectations, pay, etc) in determining weighting.
The result can therefore create a de facto senior block depending on the demographics of the merging groups. This was most certainly the result for AS/VX.
There is no one size fits all. Just strength of argument and resulting arbitrated formula.
GATRKGA wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:43 pm
Looks like transat beats rouge on every scale and year.
This basically makes ts pilots equals or better to rouge pilots from a salary point of view, especially when considering how little they actually work? Removes any sort of negotiation that ts pilots will have a better career at AC and hence have to shove it on the seniority side of things?
Or am I wrong?
Hopefully a healthy debate can be made without any maple leafs falling off anyone’s hat
This is why Calin is pissed. I and many would guess the original plan was to roll Rouge back into mainline and have TS as the vacation airline. But now all of a sudden it's more expensive because of one employee group compared to Rouge and he's unable to under bid fares to WS/Onex and SW, despite millions sperged on Airmiles and the TS purchased.
Based on your comments you seem to think Transat pilots just tanked CR’s business plan. If the plan no longer works...........think about it for a moment.
Careful pissing off CR. I can guarantee it will not go without consequence. It’s his hallmark.
AC employees have felt it. Jazz was hit with it. Aveos felt it.
He disappears into the background slowly stacking the deck in his favour. Then reappears to point a gun to your head.
It’s how he works. He’s actually quite predicable.
The message is work with me and I will be reasonable. Piss on my hand and I will take your arm out of its socket.
So if your going to piss him off make sure you have an upper hand that can not be overcome. It needs to be very calculated. Otherwise.........
Fanblade wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:56 am
Careful pissing off CR. I can guarantee it will not go without consequence. It’s his hallmark.
AC employees have felt it. Jazz was hit with it. Aveos felt it.
He disappears into the background slowly stacking the deck in his favour. Then reappears to point a gun to your head.
It’s how he works. He’s actually quite predicable.
The message is work with me and I will be reasonable. Piss on my hand and I will take your arm out of its socket.
So if your going to piss him off make sure you have an upper hand that can not be overcome. It needs to be very calculated. Otherwise.........
Yup.
If I was a TRZ shareholder I would be expecting a ‘revised’ offer. The economics of this deal changed overnight for several different reasons not including the TS CBA which will be meaningless if the merger is consummated. And don’t forget that AC and ACPA have not even begun discussions about what the operational consolidation would look like.
The alternative outcome may be a $40MM cheque and salutations.
GATRKGA wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:43 pm
Looks like transat beats rouge on every scale and year.
This basically makes ts pilots equals or better to rouge pilots from a salary point of view, especially when considering how little they actually work? Removes any sort of negotiation that ts pilots will have a better career at AC and hence have to shove it on the seniority side of things?
Or am I wrong?
Hopefully a healthy debate can be made without any maple leafs falling off anyone’s hat
This is why Calin is pissed. I and many would guess the original plan was to roll Rouge back into mainline and have TS as the vacation airline. But now all of a sudden it's more expensive because of one employee group compared to Rouge and he's unable to under bid fares to WS/Onex and SW, despite millions sperged on Airmiles and the TS purchased.
Rudder,
On so many levels this would piss CR off. On another level not yet discussed, but ultimately relates to money. Does the merger proceed reasonably with cool heads. Or does one group attempt to take advantage of the other group and start a war that takes a decade to move past.
If those comments above are factual. I have no idea who these people actually are of course. But if they are true, and were intended as described? To one up AC pilots. To put Transat pilots at an advantage over AC pilots.
