ATC Layoffs?

[wapitibaby]

I don't know what the projections hold for future trafic, but until Nav has a guarantee that trafic will not come back up for a certain period of time that's when they will lay off controllers, not before. They are too scared of trafic coming back and not being able to provide service at a 100% level that's why they did not lay off in the first place. And if they do lay off controllers they will be called back when the trafic comes up again (before there is any new training), just like what is happening to pilots, we are only months behind them

[clr4takeoff]

Well, now we have the finale answer....
Some IFR (aerea control center) controllers will be laid off 6 month from now. Don't know hom many though. More than a hundred from what I heard.

[Braun]

Well, now we have the finale answer....
Some IFR (aerea control center) controllers will be laid off 6 month from now. Don't know hom many though. More than a hundred from what I heard.

Number is about right. A lot of units are affected. Gander is the hardest hit. They will deploy controllers to currently understaffed units and we’ll see what happens with the rest. Unless there a is major uptick in movements there will most likely be layoffs in the future. They haven’t specifically said how many are being laid off. They also offered more departure incentive packages to make some space.

[wordstwice]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

[Braun]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

I honestly thought there were more. Are you sure about the number?

[Mayor_McCheese]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

I honestly thought there were more. Are you sure about the number?

I heard 50, so 49 probably more accurate.

[Braun]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

I honestly thought there were more. Are you sure about the number?

I heard 50, so 49 probably more accurate.

49 it is. Just got the CATCA email.

[VFRDreamer]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

Shoot I know it is majorly selfish but being laid off trainee in the first wave of lat offs makes me more and more scared as more get laid off. Last ones out I assume first ones back, certainly fully licensed controllers before a trainee. This is such a friggin mess. I can’t even imagine long term what the industry will look like.

[Braun]

49 IFR controllers served noticed.

Shoot I know it is majorly selfish but being laid off trainee in the first wave of lat offs makes me more and more scared as more get laid off. Last ones out I assume first ones back, certainly fully licensed controllers before a trainee. This is such a friggin mess. I can’t even imagine long term what the industry will look like.

Also keep in mind there are several Level of Service investigations happening. When the results come out I wouldn’t be surprised if there quite a few VFR controller layoffs as well.

[stabilizedapproach]

If all the LOS reviews come back and end up shutting down towers, I think any surplus controllers will get displaced to short-staffed towers. Just not sure how the company can afford to pay for relocation, and take the cost/risk of possibly having a controller CT'd if they don't make it. And with the optimal staffing strategy, anyone at over-staffed towers even without an LOS should be worried.

Even with surplus, we will still remain short for the long term. Dreamer is, unfortunately, correct - last ones out are likely the first ones back. If it plays out the way I think it will, ab initio training in certain areas will be on pause for a very long time. The union ought to go ballistic if they bring back ab initios while there are still controllers on the streets.

[wapitibaby]

I'm wondering here did the airlines layoff pilots the correct way (respecting the seniority) ? Or are you like us wondering if your name will come out of the sorting hat of layoffs? Or are the companies not giving a @#$! about your seniority and pretending that laying off people will actually make a difference to justify saving 5 days of losses?

[Braun]

If all the LOS reviews come back and end up shutting down towers, I think any surplus controllers will get displaced to short-staffed towers. Just not sure how the company can afford to pay for relocation, and take the cost/risk of possibly having a controller CT'd if they don't make it. And with the optimal staffing strategy, anyone at over-staffed towers even without an LOS should be worried.

Even with surplus, we will still remain short for the long term. Dreamer is, unfortunately, correct - last ones out are likely the first ones back. If it plays out the way I think it will, ab initio training in certain areas will be on pause for a very long time. The union ought to go ballistic if they bring back ab initios while there are still controllers on the streets.

Not sure how last one out first one back is unfortunate. It's just logical. What's unfortunate is that there are layoffs in the first place and that our union never gave us a chance to vote on proposed salary freezes/cuts to save these jobs. Shame on CATCA.

[Braun]

I'm wondering here did the airlines layoff pilots the correct way (respecting the seniority) ? Or are you like us wondering if your name will come out of the sorting hat of layoffs? Or are the companies not giving a @#$! about your seniority and pretending that laying off people will actually make a difference to justify saving 5 days of losses?

The laidoff people in silos. I.E. Every ACC was treated separately and some units with those ACC's were protected from layoffs. Usually, terminals.

[A346Dude]

Not sure how last one out first one back is unfortunate. It's just logical. What's unfortunate is that there are layoffs in the first place and that our union never gave us a chance to vote on proposed salary freezes/cuts to save these jobs. Shame on CATCA.

I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.

[Braun]

Not sure how last one out first one back is unfortunate. It's just logical. What's unfortunate is that there are layoffs in the first place and that our union never gave us a chance to vote on proposed salary freezes/cuts to save these jobs. Shame on CATCA.

I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.

I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.

[kevenv]

Not sure how last one out first one back is unfortunate. It's just logical. What's unfortunate is that there are layoffs in the first place and that our union never gave us a chance to vote on proposed salary freezes/cuts to save these jobs. Shame on CATCA.

I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.

I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.

I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.

[Braun]

I think he meant unfortunate for anyone who was “first out”.

Since we don’t know what (if anything) the company proposed to CATCA, I find it hard to call the approach shameful.

I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.

I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.

If you think I am pro-management or agree with the bonuses, you're wrong. All I am saying is our union didn't even discuss this with the members knowing full well layoffs were most likely the next step. If you're happy with how CATCA handled this, that's fine.

[kevenv]

I happen to know that they did propose a deal of this sort. Also I've heard it from reliable sources within the union and from the other side.

I suppose we could have voted to give the company a further break so that they could give the managers more than the $7 million in bonuses that they did on the day that they gave the layoff notices.

If you think I am pro-management or agree with the bonuses, you're wrong. All I am saying is our union didn't even discuss this with the members knowing full well layoffs were most likely the next step. If you're happy with how CATCA handled this, that's fine.

Relax Braun. I didn't accuse you of being anything. Nor did I mention you specifically in my reply let alone what I thought you may be thinking. You had offered your opinion which I can appreciate. I offered mine via a statement in return. I didn't suggest that you were happy with how the company handled things, why would you suggest I was happy with the way the union did?

[wapitibaby]

The way they announced the layoffs is pretty shameful:

-Not giving a @#$! about the CATCA seniority list
-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more

The way CATCA has handled this ? I'm pretty sad to see a controller throwing dirt at CATCA.

Not wanting to save jobs when people are ready to take a package because they're in a privileged unit. LMAO

The thing here is that the staffing problems in certain units have been dragging on since the company was born. They didn't do anything about it, it's their problem, not any controller's problem in the company.

You can't choose who you wanna lay off by silos, it goes against the very principle of having a union. SENIORITY.

You can't decide when you wanna apply seniority or not. This is not WALMART.

To see some people stand up and support that way of doing things is absolutely ridiculous, the amount of money saved by these cuts is 5 DAYS OF LOSSES.

If the goal was really to cut the losses they should be cutting 40% of the controllers all across the country.

The company will not work at that point? It's too dangerous? Put in the restrictions, stop letting trafic fly that does not bring any revenues to Nav.

When the flying schools aren't able to fly and they all file for bankruptcy and those flights with the vaccines get delayed maybe the government will have no choice to act?

**Grab your popcorns and watch, it's a shit storm right now**

[Braun]

The way they announced the layoffs is pretty shameful:

-Not giving a @#$! about the CATCA seniority list
-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more

The way CATCA has handled this ? I'm pretty sad to see a controller throwing dirt at CATCA.

Not wanting to save jobs when people are ready to take a package because they're in a privileged unit. LMAO

The thing here is that the staffing problems in certain units have been dragging on since the company was born. They didn't do anything about it, it's their problem, not any controller's problem in the company.

You can't choose who you wanna lay off by silos, it goes against the very principle of having a union. SENIORITY.

You can't decide when you wanna apply seniority or not. This is not WALMART.

To see some people stand up and support that way of doing things is absolutely ridiculous, the amount of money saved by these cuts is 5 DAYS OF LOSSES.

If the goal was really to cut the losses they should be cutting 40% of the controllers all across the country.

The company will not work at that point? It's too dangerous? Put in the restrictions, stop letting trafic fly that does not bring any revenues to Nav.

When the flying schools aren't able to fly and they all file for bankruptcy and those flights with the vaccines get delayed maybe the government will have no choice to act?

**Grab your popcorns and watch, it's a shit storm right now**

Where was CATCA when our controllers in units that were critically short? Where was CATCA when some units could barely take their leave, use comp, have decent schedules? You think I’m throwing dirt at CATCA but I’m not. I’m throwing dirt at a lack of transparency on their end that could’ve saved jobs. Why didn’t the union present all the options to us before layoffs were announced? Do you truly believe NAV just announced staff reductions and CATCA wasn’t aware it was coming.

These cuts, justified or no are still happening and all CATCA cares about now is seniority. I care about saving jobs personally. Not who gets fired first.

This won’t be popular but there is a reason terminals where always short. They’re harder to checkout in and qualified controllers don’t transfer to them because it’s harder. CATCA never wanted to recognize this because we are all « equal ». Except when it comes to the minority who gets shafted for working in short staffed units forever. That’s ok, right?

[wordstwice]

This is new ground for everyone in ATC. Layoffs have been part of society for everyone except some professions including ATC until
now.

Why I still hold out hope that things will turn around and any layoffs will be short term in the meantime we ALL can learn from this experience should we face it again.

On a personal note, I am very surprised at these layoffs while people involved with training are still employed and get paid to do essentially nothing. (OTS, IPS, and LQS staff for example). Shift managers are still being hired as well as some new upper management positions in YOW while operations are being reduced. There are still trainees in YVR ACC while checked out controllers are being laid off in other units.

I could go on and on but it’s just a mess!

Sorry, I really don’t have anything constructive to add, just venting.

[Braun]

This is new ground for everyone in ATC. Layoffs have been part of society for everyone except some professions including ATC until
now.

Why I still hold out hope that things will turn around and any layoffs will be short term in the meantime we ALL can learn from this experience should we face it again.

On a personal note, I am very surprised at these layoffs while people involved with training are still employed and get paid to do essentially nothing. (OTS, IPS, and LQS staff for example). Shift managers are still being hired as well as some new upper management positions in YOW while operations are being reduced. There are still trainees in YVR ACC while checked out controllers are being laid off in other units.

I could go on and on but it’s just a mess!

Sorry, I really don’t have anything constructive to add, just venting.

You’re 100% right and I agree with you. There are some inconsistencies in this process. Hopefully traffic will increase and we can avoid any layoffs. We should be ready for next time by making sure the process is clear beforehand instead of this circus.

[ahramin]

-Basically telling us terminal controllers are worth more

I'm not a controller and have never worked for NavCanada but from my experience dealing with YVR ACC, terminal controllers are worth more. To my uninformed eye the job looks more difficult, and the percentage of IFR controllers who can and will do the job seems to support this position. When it comes to pilots, our unions are uniform across the country that layoffs are by pure seniority but we can easily make the argument that any pilot can be retrained for any seat in any aircraft. My understanding is that NavCanada cannot layoff terminal controllers because those higher on the seniority list wouldn't fill those seats. Am I wrong?

Also most of the efforts of our unions to mitigate layoffs have met with failure, but not for lack of trying. My union has been spending a huge amount of effort negotiating with the company and going over many, many options to try to reduce the number of layoffs. Both the successes and the failures have been well communicated to the members. That CATCA has not done so speaks to a dysfunctional union. Maybe it's time for some of the younger CATCA members to start stepping up to the plate and getting involved.

[wapitibaby]

My point here is not trying to say who's working harder or which job seems harder. There's a seniority list, respect the list, end of story. It's gonna cost money to retrain if you cut by seniority? You had from 1996 til now to solve that problem. OUPS

There's no valid argument to not respect a collective agreement. We come to work on time, we respect all the rules we have to follow. All the company policies, but we're getting fucked over at the end ?

If a company loses 100 million a month and tries to justify cuts by bringing their financial status as an argument, respect yourself and cut enough to turn that situation around. Don't pretend cutting a fraction of the losses in salary is the way to go. LOL

[Negative_Unable]

Where was CATCA when our controllers in units that were critically short? Where was CATCA when some units could barely take their leave, use comp, have decent schedules? You think I’m throwing dirt at CATCA but I’m not. I’m throwing dirt at a lack of transparency on their end that could’ve saved jobs. Why didn’t the union present all the options to us before layoffs were announced? Do you truly believe NAV just announced staff reductions and CATCA wasn’t aware it was coming.

Nailed it, Braun. As somebody working in one of those critically staffed units, I agree 100%. The lack of transparency has been incredibly frustrating.