Nolinor Aviation Starts New Airline

['97 Tercel]

LOL

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Lol "this is not a MAX". Instead it's an old crusty 737-400

no doubt

prolly an old clapped out fried chicken hauler

[GoHomeLeg]

I hope this isn't a secret partnership with Sunwing to provide lift.

Lift for what? Sunwing has 14 airplanes sitting (practically) idle.

They do have one thing going for them though.....
The paint job is much better than Flair!

I know. I'm talking about when they start flying again. Sunwing tends to use other airlines when they want to test out new markets or if load factors are low out of certain gateways. Last season they used Swoop.

[Jean-Pierre]

LOL ouch. I was thinking more like on this side of the pond.

Air Canada?

[thenoflyzone]

LOL ouch. I was thinking more like on this side of the pond.

Air Canada?

Touché !

Some of their A320s didnt even have GPS until a few years ago. Let's not even talk about ADS-B.

Off we go to cuba with a tech stop in Orlando

The B734 had issues with Alberta-South runs. Quebec-South runs pose no range issues for the B734. Their website says a range of 2,500nm, but the following maps are with an official Boeing range of 2,060nm with 147 pax, which I trust more.

[Loner]

The 400 is the wrong plane for this type of “mission”
Ask Flair..
OWG...tough name IMHO, it’s a mouth full

[whipline]

Throw some winds in, throw some enroute weather in, throw no close alternate airports in. Now enjoy your stopover somewhere other then your destination. Then throw in new duty regs and enjoy a night on OMG’s dime.

[doiwannabeapilot]

do they mean flightaware.com ?

Unlike many airlines, OWG will track its aircraft in real time using sophisticated satellite-based communication systems.

Umm, what respectable 705 airline DOESNT do that?

[thenoflyzone]

do they mean flightaware.com ?

They mean ADS-B. There are still a lot of 705 company airframes with no ADS-B in Canada.

[BTD]

Maybe ADS C? It uses satellite.

ADS B uses mode S transponder and ground stations that doesn’t require radar. Although ADS B does require GPS for position determination.

[sanjet]

In regards to tech stops. If the tickets are cheaper than competitors, low yield passengers don’t really care.

[EPR]

OWG is code for OMG!

[ahramin]

ADS B uses mode S transponder and ground stations that doesn’t require radar. Although ADS B does require GPS for position determination.

How does it work in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean then?

[BTD]

.

[BTD]

I don’t believe it does. That is ADS C works in the middle of the ocean. Although your ADS B could be communicating with other ADS B capable aircraft nearby. ADS B needs satellite navigation (gps) for position, but then uses transponder and ground stations to pass that to ATC.

Automatic dependent surveillance–broadcast (ADS–B) is a surveillance technology in which an aircraft determines its position via satellite navigation and periodically broadcasts it, enabling it to be tracked. The information can be received by air traffic control ground stations as a replacement for secondary surveillance radar, as no interrogation signal is needed from the ground. It can also be received by other aircraft to provide situational awareness and allow self-separation. ADS–B is "automatic" in that it requires no pilot or external input. It is "dependent" in that it depends on data from the aircraft's navigation system.[1]

[goldeneagle]

I don’t believe it does. That is ADS C works in the middle of the ocean. Although your ADS B could be communicating with other ADS B capable aircraft nearby. ADS B needs satellite navigation (gps) for position, but then uses transponder and ground stations to pass that to ATC.

Your information is not correct.


https://www.navcanada.ca/en/products-an ... ads-b.aspx
============
Space-based ADS-B

NAV CANADA is part of a joint venture, called Aireon​, with Iridium Communications and air navigation service providers from the UK (NATS), Ireland (IAA), Italy (ENAV) and Denmark (Naviair)

Aireon has expanded air traffic surveillance to the entire planet by installing ADS-B receivers on a constellation of 66 Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellites.
============

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Aut ... ct_(ADS-C)
============
Definition

Automatic dependent surveillance — contract (ADS-C): means by which the terms of an ADS-C agreement will be exchanged between the ground system and the aircraft, via a data link, specifying under what conditions ADS-C reports would be initiated, and what data would be contained in the reports. (ICAO)

Description

Although the names are similar, ADS-C and ADS-B are two different applications.

Automatic dependent surveillance - broadcast (ADS-B), like Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR) and Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) is an ATS surveillance system which allows ATC to automatically and repeatedly access data from all suitably equipped aircraft and both use and re-broadcast it to suitably equipped other aircraft within range.

Automatic dependent surveillance - contract (ADS-C) uses the same systems on board the aircraft to automatically transmit similar information - aircraft position, altitude, speed, elements of navigational intent and meteorological data - only to one or more specific Air Traffic Services Unit (ATSU) or AOC [1] facilities for surveillance and/or route conformance monitoring.
============

[BTD]

I don’t believe it does. That is ADS C works in the middle of the ocean. Although your ADS B could be communicating with other ADS B capable aircraft nearby. ADS B needs satellite navigation (gps) for position, but then uses transponder and ground stations to pass that to ATC.

Your information is not correct.

Hmm. Learn something new everyday.

For my clarity then, and given the follow up reading I have done. Most documentation still references ADS B as being ground based surveillance. Even Aireon makes reference on their website that current ADS B is ground based, implying that approvals for "Space Based ADS B" are still to come.

There are no references I have seen to this in the Computer Based Training I have done for PBSC and Remote/Oceanic operations.

There is other information that shows Nav Canada, started an ADS B trial in remote areas of Hudson Bay and some NAT airspace. This is all relatively recent developments (the last 6-12 months)?

So is "space based ADS-B" being used, not on a trial basis, across the North Atlantic now? Or is it still being trialed?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Another interesting note about ADS-B and C is that when I was in ATC training a few years ago, the official terminology changed from "RADAR identified" to "Surveillance identified" as now it is not necessarily RADAR that is being used to see you. It could be RADAR, a combination or RADAR or other surveillance method or completely space-based. I know it's semantics, but almost every controller I know still says "Radar identified" as it's just old habit.

[lownslow]

What does OWG stand for?

[flyingcanuck]

What does OWG stand for?

Off we go

[boeingboy]

Space based ADS-B has been used for flight tracking since 2017

A significant step forward for ADS-B is the reception by artificial satellites of the ADS-B signal. It was tested for the first time in 2013 on ESA's PROBA-V[65] and it is being deployed by companies like Spire Global using low-cost nanosatellites. Aireon is also working on space-based ADS-B with the Iridium satellite network, a LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellite network that was originally created to deliver phone and data service anywhere on the planet. By capturing ADS-B position data from aircraft flying below the satellite, the network will give the following capabilities:

Air traffic control using surveillance based separation standards will be possible over water, in areas that radar does not currently cover. Currently, air traffic control uses the larger procedural separation standard in oceanic and remote areas.
As is currently possible in radar covered areas, a position history will be available for lost aircraft, as in the case of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
The system only receives ADS-B on aircraft broadcasting on the 1090 MHz frequency. This limits the system generally to airliners and business aircraft, despite the fact that small aircraft are frequently off radar due to mountains blocking the signal at low altitudes. The system could be compromised by smaller, private aircraft with exclusively belly mounted ADS-B antennas, due to the aircraft hull blocking the signal.

The rationale for using the Iridium satellite network for this new capability was due to:

The Iridium satellites fly very low, and thus can receive the ADS-B out signals more reliably (transponders and ADS-B were designed for ground reception).
Iridium satellites are replaced relatively frequently due to the increased air friction at their lower altitude, and thus lower lifespan. Thus the system would be deployed on iridium faster.
Iridium provides worldwide coverage, including the poles.
In September 2016, Aireon and FlightAware announced a partnership[66] to provide this global space-based ADS-B data to airlines for flight tracking of their fleets and, in response to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, for compliance with the ICAO Global Aeronautical Distress and Safety System (GADSS) requirement for airlines to track their fleets.[67] In December 2016, Flightradar24, entered an agreement with Gomspace for space-based tracking in 2016.[68]

SpaceX subsequently placed 66 operational and 9 spare Iridium satellites in orbit over the course of 8 launches between 14 January 2017 and 11 January 2019. Another 6 spare satellites remain on the ground.

The ICAO describes space-based ADS-B as a technology equalizer, offering developing nations an airspace surveillance capability. By 2020, 34 nations will deploy the system, including the 17 members of the Asecna in Africa, and the Cocesna air navigation services agency in Central America. More frequent updates in the North Atlantic Tracks allowed reducing longitudinal separation from 40 to 14 nmi (74 to 26 km) and lateral separations from 23 to 19 nmi (43 to 35 km). The FAA plans an evaluation in the Caribbean airspace from March 2020 until 2021, to complement the unreliable Grand Turk Island radar which allow reducing separation from 30 to 5 nmi (55.6 to 9.3 km).[69]

[boeingboy]

For my clarity then, and given the follow up reading I have done. Most documentation still references ADS B as being ground based surveillance.

All ADS-B requires a ground station so to speak....The difference is whether your pulling that info from the transponder itself (radar) or from the satellites (receiving station).

You also may be confusing the 978 vs 1090ES systems

[ahramin]

For my clarity then, and given the follow up reading I have done. Most documentation still references ADS B as being ground based surveillance.

All ADS-B requires a ground station so to speak....The difference is whether your pulling that info from the transponder itself (radar) or from the satellites (receiving station).

You also may be confusing the 978 vs 1090ES systems

What does radar have to do with ADS-B?

[lownslow]

What does OWG stand for?

Off we go

Excellent. An abbreviation that has more syllables than what it was supposed to shorten.

[boeingboy]

For my clarity then, and given the follow up reading I have done. Most documentation still references ADS B as being ground based surveillance.

All ADS-B requires a ground station so to speak....The difference is whether your pulling that info from the transponder itself (radar) or from the satellites (receiving station).

You also may be confusing the 978 vs 1090ES systems

What does radar have to do with ADS-B?

Sorry....piss poor choice of words. I meant that like radar ground based system is line of sight and obstructed by terrain, limited range, and other limitations. The space based ones dont have that issue so less stations and those are relayed to the ATC facility.

Only the 978 UAT system will provide weather, notams, etc.....but space based requires ant diversity

[Cappo1]

How will fares stay attractive to the consumer when the AIFs are going through the roof at the airports they plan on operating out of ? Is this going to be the PQ version of Swoop for vacation destinations ?