rotorspeed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:46 am
Why do people in this horrible economy with all the airlines tanking want to work for complete shit pay at the bottom for maybe a chance in many years to sit possibly at the right seat to make more shit pay doing that. This is even if you get a slot. Why not get a decent job make money and rent planes and fly some adventures.Ive been looking at videos of guys flying single engine planes all around the place including around the world doing real flying, instead of rotate and arm the autopilot and fly to 500 above the deck and disarm the autopilot.
1) Most careers require starting at the bottom for entry level pay. There is a very good reason they are called "entry level positions."
2) If it's a decent job and adventurous flying you're after, why not get a decent job that IS adventurous flying? There are plenty of them out there, especially in this country. No autopilot required.
shimmydampner wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:36 am
Are you suggesting that they do in aviation?
If you read some of the posts here, you would. You have to pay your dues on the ramp, then you have to pay your dues as an underpaid FO on a clapped out navajo, then pay your dues as captain on said airplane with 3 days off every 2 weeks in the middle of a reserve, then pay your dues at jazz on reserve, pay your dues as a jazz captain, because it will get you to AC. When you finally make it to Air Canada, you will be on flat pay, because all the other guys have paid their dues, so you should to.
It could easily take 10 to 15 years, especially now, between getting your CPL and being off flat pay at AC, which seems to be the only place where you stop "paying your dues" for the most commonly craved career path.
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hithere wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:12 pm
The irony of this industry is that for the past 3 years(right up until Covid hit) all the attributes of hard work, pay your dues etc were thrown out the window. Seneca brats With rich parents and other entitled metrosexuals with 200 hrs got hired at Jazz etc and as soon as the ink was dry on their ATPL were hired at AC. Now we are back to the only people that this industry can attract are those who are willing to work their asses off in the middle of nowhere for the remote possibility of a King Air job for poverty wages until this nightmare ends.
I'm trying to think of any other industry where a 22-25 year old doesn't have to work their ass off at the bottom.
I certainly did. Why is this a problem?
Clean toilets. I did at 20. You learn a lot by cleaning someone else's shit spread all over a bathroom.
Maybe that's beneath too many 20 something's.
@#$! this I suffered so you need to as well mindset. This divisiveness we have is why people flying Metro's in the US make more than AC 777 Fo's! It helps nobody and creates animosity.
And considering most people who recently got their CPL will have $40k in university debt and $80k in flight school debt, I struggle to think of a career path that cost so much and will have you cleaning toilets and making less than 50k for nearly a decade if you average it out.
As long as you're a 250 and didn't spend 120k on your education doing airport management then it might be ok. Look at the USA, in Sept the government bailout for payroll ends. Youre going to see mass layoffs. I dont know if anyone else read this, pilots for icelandair will now be doing flight attendant duties
tsgarp wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:23 pm
Your feelings may get hurt, but the aviation advice is top notch.
He's right you know. In the echo chamber you'll hear such gems as:
I taught approaches to the full landing when doing IFR training.
The student continued to the full landing with no forward visibility rather than miss at minimums.
If an instructor does not feel comfortable teaching zero / zero landings they should quit instructing.
Here's my money saving advise to you...fast forward 3 years from now, you have been "ramping it up North" for a couple of years now and you are getting close to a check-out when you realize...Holy Shit, my IFR is expired! O:k, not the end of the world, you have a valid multi-engine endorsement (that never expires), so what you need to do is likely rewrite the IFR exam, but you don't need to spend a bunch of cash on getting checked out and retrained to IFR test standards in a multi-engine aircraft, just do your refresher in a relatively cheap. full motion sim, like a "Redbird sim" or do your refresher training and ride in a single-engine aircraft and your "company check-out ride", will automatically change your class 3 IFR to a Class 1 IFR thereby saving you thousands of dollars in training and multi aircraft rental fees! Your welcome!
tsgarp wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:23 pm
Your feelings may get hurt, but the aviation advice is top notch.
He's right you know. In the echo chamber you'll hear such gems as:
I taught approaches to the full landing when doing IFR training.
The student continued to the full landing with no forward visibility rather than miss at minimums.
If an instructor does not feel comfortable teaching zero / zero landings they should quit instructing.
That's some top notch advice right there.
If you want to distill the thought processes of most of those on the CJ site about flying, it’s the emphasis of superior skills rather than superior decision making. It’s also mainly based on emotions rather than reason. Ego feeding. Trying to prove someone wrong. Impulsiveness.
In all my years and hours of flying including some pretty remote areas where alternates are far apart I can’t think of a single instance where I wished my instructor had taught me a 0/0 landing.
EPR wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:44 pm
Here's my money saving advise to you...fast forward 3 years from now, you have been "ramping it up North" for a couple of years now and you are getting close to a check-out when you realize...Holy Shit, my IFR is expired! O:k, not the end of the world, you have a valid multi-engine endorsement (that never expires), so what you need to do is likely rewrite the IFR exam, but you don't need to spend a bunch of cash on getting checked out and retrained to IFR test standards in a multi-engine aircraft, just do your refresher in a relatively cheap. full motion sim, like a "Redbird sim" or do your refresher training and ride in a single-engine aircraft and your "company check-out ride", will automatically change your class 3 IFR to a Class 1 IFR thereby saving you thousands of dollars in training and multi aircraft rental fees! Your welcome!
You don’t need to rewrite the IFR exam anymore, and you only ever have one initial which has to be done in the airplane, a renewal can be done in a simulator.
That’s what I did 13 years after my Group 1 expired. Saved me a lot of cash and headache especially since I had to drive three hours to get to a school.
I believe you could renew on your PPC, which might work if you already work for the company and they are ok with it. But if you are on the job hunt a current IFR looks better since you’re likely competing against everyone else with a current IFR.
If you've been fucked over by a sketchy operator, that's unfortunate. Likewise if you've spent 2 years on the ramp and/or been paid poverty wages. No one is expecting you to be happy about it. But, no one cares to hear you whinge about it. Unfortunately it's part of the gauntlet that most Canadian aviators are forced to run in order to achieve their career goals. I'm not saying it's right, but it is reality so you would be well served to deal with it in a constructive way. No amount of your tears will change anything. The only way you might possibly affect any modicum of change would be to start your own operation and hire 200-250 hour pilots directly into the seats of your aircraft and pay them $70k/year to start. If you have neither the capital nor the balls to do that, you are pretty much going to be stuck with either sucking it up and slugging it out, or quitting. I heard Dominos was in need of delivery drivers.
shimmydampner wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:30 am
If you've been fucked over by a sketchy operator, that's unfortunate. Likewise if you've spent 2 years on the ramp and/or been paid poverty wages. No one is expecting you to be happy about it. But, no one cares to hear you whinge about it. Unfortunately it's part of the gauntlet that most Canadian aviators are forced to run in order to achieve their career goals. I'm not saying it's right, but it is reality so you would be well served to deal with it in a constructive way. No amount of your tears will change anything. The only way you might possibly affect any modicum of change would be to start your own operation and hire 200-250 hour pilots directly into the seats of your aircraft and pay them $70k/year to start. If you have neither the capital nor the balls to do that, you are pretty much going to be stuck with either sucking it up and slugging it out, or quitting. I heard Dominos was in need of delivery drivers.
Actually, things would most likely change if everyone cried about it. If more people were to find out about the conditions of the first pilot jobs out there and decided *not* to get into aviation, then that would lower the pilot supply and improve conditions for new pilots, just like they were much better 6 months ago than 5 years ago.
So crying and whining will help, just not to each other, but to aspiring pilots
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
But my point is why should we be happy to work poverty wages and not touch a plane for 2 years while working a ramp.
What are your expectations for a 250 hr newbie in terms of job and pay right off the bat?
And everyone knows the drill. No one made anyone go into aviation in the first place, or anything else with expensive education and a long apprenticeship.
Flying is NO different than many, many other skilled professions in that regard. The big bucks are there, but later. Take it or leave it.
And talking about "sketchy operators".
Start your own f----ing company and tell us how easy it is.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
digits_ wrote:
Actually, things would most likely change if everyone cried about it. If more people were to find out about the conditions of the first pilot jobs out there and decided *not* to get into aviation, then that would lower the pilot supply and improve conditions for new pilots, just like they were much better 6 months ago than 5 years ago.
Well, you can choose to act as if you exist in the actual reality of now, or a hypothetical one of your own making. Maybe you could start a speaking tour at flight schools, warning young pilots of the perils of a career in aviation. It would certainly be interesting to see how many would not trade a couple years on the ramp and a couple more of mediocre pay for a pretty easy, relatively high paying job that you can do well into your 60s.
digits_ wrote:
Actually, things would most likely change if everyone cried about it. If more people were to find out about the conditions of the first pilot jobs out there and decided *not* to get into aviation, then that would lower the pilot supply and improve conditions for new pilots, just like they were much better 6 months ago than 5 years ago.
Well, you can choose to act as if you exist in the actual reality of now, or a hypothetical one of your own making. Maybe you could start a speaking tour at flight schools, warning young pilots of the perils of a career in aviation. It would certainly be interesting to see how many would not trade a couple years on the ramp and a couple more of mediocre pay for a pretty easy, relatively high paying job that you can do well into your 60s.
Look at the amount of ATPLs issued vs the amount of CPLs issued. That would be somewhat of an indicator of how many people quit. I imagine quite a significant amount of people would never get licensed in the first place if they had a realistic view of what the pilot jobs entail.
When starting out, it is extremely hard to find reliable information. Firstly, you have the training providers who have no motivation to volunteer actual job market information. Some share some selective information, others just blatantly lie. Secondly, you have the people in the industry who might be willing to share info, but might only have outdated info. Recent graduates might still be in the honeymoon phase, or try to keep their head down -which seems to be the general consensus at smaller operators- and don't want to complaint or speak negatiely over their employer until they have moved on to better places. Thirdly, you have the general attitude that people think they will be luckier than the average pilot, will perform better and get a better job. Only 10% of the past classes might have gotten a flying job in the last few years, but why can't that be you?
The negative dark site of AvCanada might actually be put to good use to inform new pilots.
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