Exactly,,
you all know how it is in this business. The grass is always greener. I have a feeling that a lot of people will still be bitching about "low pay" after they make their first $100k. If you dont like it get out. It isnt a way to get rich quick it is a way of life! Yeah we all have goals to move on to bigger and better. But enjoy what you are doing now because it could be the last job you ever have for several reasons!.
Fly Safe!
Ryan
Northern Thunderbird Air???
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
I would like to comment on a number of things said on this thread. First, yes there is grumbling going on at NTair. Especially since the Nav Air crash, a lot of the guys have been working their collective bags off while the powers that be try to pull up the slack and make $$. Second, the comment by the medevac driver who is saying all is well is crap. When you work 4 days on/4 off, year in and year out - why the hell would you complain? You have a nice cushy sked, TRY being on the front lines for a change. You are comparing apples to oranges. Third, hard work is not rewarded, that is obvious if you knew of some of the firings over the past year of people who worked hard, but did not have their noses up the right assholes. Fourth and last, Nt is in this business to make money, they don't really give much of a rats ass what anyone else thinks. If you got in this business without doing your homework, thats your problem. People get into flying with a lot of delusional attitudes. To those of you who want to whine about what a lousy job Nt is, you chose it, suck it up or get the hell out.
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Older Returning Pilot
- Rank 2
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:28 pm
- Location: YYC,CYBW
WA WA WA
What a hard life we have, Is everyone here flying??? I am a Businessman trying to get back into aviation becuse I want to fly and here you are "Jet Jocks " that think you should always should have had a seat in the big iron. I know the feeling, but come on people, you are doing what you dream of doing. I have done many shit jobs in my life to make the big money. Yes Union's are good, but they cause lots of problems, do you want to fly with an " I am God because I am a pilot and have the license to prove it" and kill you of your passengers? I work with these types everyday ( not as a Pilot) and yes they are good, but they are no better than anyone.
The digs between the pilots and these companies really irk me. They hired you didn't they? Are you now to good to fly for them?? I will be totally honest here and say I would not hire any of you, into the health and safety world, I could not have these kind of problems and have to babysit 400-700 tradesman.
Gentleman and Ladies I would give my everything to be back in a flying job, I do very well in what I do, as you do, and yes I have lots of complaints, and yes I am sure my employees do to, but I would trade my chair for yours anyday!!!
If you are not happy tell the company you work for to hire me!!!!
The digs between the pilots and these companies really irk me. They hired you didn't they? Are you now to good to fly for them?? I will be totally honest here and say I would not hire any of you, into the health and safety world, I could not have these kind of problems and have to babysit 400-700 tradesman.
Gentleman and Ladies I would give my everything to be back in a flying job, I do very well in what I do, as you do, and yes I have lots of complaints, and yes I am sure my employees do to, but I would trade my chair for yours anyday!!!
If you are not happy tell the company you work for to hire me!!!!
To once again too slip them surly bonds of Earth
1050 TT, 135 Multi, 800 PIC, 155 IFR
1050 TT, 135 Multi, 800 PIC, 155 IFR
Northern Thunderchicken, eh? Is old Les still flying that Beech 18 up and back from Fort Ware?
Chill out, you guys. The scenario is thus: pilots complain, company ignores 'em; pilots quit when times are good, company ignores 'em; times are bad, company makes money, pilots have nowhere else to go, company ignores 'em = instant union. Very few of you guys will still be working there in, oh, two years? Except for AC and a few others, nobody stays put past the first turnaround.
Remember the '80s, when nearly every tinpot outfit was unionized? Some of you will. Most of the unions faded away when the crews moved on, the companies went T.U., or the outfits were bought out...
NTAir is one of the few companies that were around when I was a kid - I thought they had gone union once - did they go bankrupt?
So enjoy the trip while you're on it, and relax. Do your best work, 'cause you're being watched, and if it really is intolerable, go rent the U-Haul.
Chill out, you guys. The scenario is thus: pilots complain, company ignores 'em; pilots quit when times are good, company ignores 'em; times are bad, company makes money, pilots have nowhere else to go, company ignores 'em = instant union. Very few of you guys will still be working there in, oh, two years? Except for AC and a few others, nobody stays put past the first turnaround.
Remember the '80s, when nearly every tinpot outfit was unionized? Some of you will. Most of the unions faded away when the crews moved on, the companies went T.U., or the outfits were bought out...
NTAir is one of the few companies that were around when I was a kid - I thought they had gone union once - did they go bankrupt?
So enjoy the trip while you're on it, and relax. Do your best work, 'cause you're being watched, and if it really is intolerable, go rent the U-Haul.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
XS - Les wasn't flying anymore when I worked there ('97-'98 ) and YES they went tits up in '98.... was a failed "merger" with CMA.
They resurfaced in '99 and rehired FEW.. pretty poor of them
but at least I had a good job offer in the meantime.
They resurfaced in '99 and rehired FEW.. pretty poor of them
but at least I had a good job offer in the meantime.Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
- Amelia Earhart
The owners at NT/CMA have created for themselves the ideal situation to profit in good times and bad. It is eerily similar to how well Robert Milton plays off the mainline ACPA pilots against the ALPA Jazz pilots whenever either one starts asking for too much.
The companies are owned by the same 3 people- most of the income is generated by NT, while most of the expense is covered by CMA. Ergo NT is hugely profitable and CMA is marginally so (although it would seem like quite a feat to be one of the only companies in this part of the world not profiting hugely from the oil boom in their backyard, but that's a different story).
Anyhow the crew room gab goes like this. CMA runs groundschools and trains NT pilots, CMA lays off trained type rated pilots who are then picked up by NT, CMA engineers maintain NT aircraft in various bases, CMA maintains parts supply in various bases, the aircraft are 'dual registered' to both companies and can operate on either's OC...but who's paying the rent? One company covers a lot of the expense for the other.
Everyone knows charter can be hugely profitable if you have regular clients and the economy is good- yes and yes for NT right now. Flying for O&G producers and gold companies Ka-CHING these days. Not to mention being able to take advantage of several high profile failures on the west coast in the past 2 yrs. The company is obviously doing something right, and their pilots are paid more than CMA's because they a) work more days b) self dispatch c ) fly difficult charters d) their company is profitable (partly because of the above reasons).
Conversely CMA pilots a) work fewer days b) type B dispatch c ) fly easy skeds d) their company is not profitable (up for debate).
What this does is provide easy talking points to be brought up at meetings when comparing one to the other. CMA pilots ask for more $, and are not-so-subtlely reminded that they are porcelain skinned pretty boys with fancy hats that don't really work that hard. NT pilots complain about their lack of a personal life, and are reminded that they have to work hard for their huge dough
.
Either way, who knows maybe on the next downturn people will get sick and tired and xsbank's prediction will come true and they will unionize. Just for god's sake do it together so you can't be played off against each other a la AC and Jazz. Those who pursue it do so with extreme caution though as management has a history of being lets just say quite anti labour.
Until then though just keep your head down, do your job safely and quietly and plan your exit. Airlines and the industry in general in the 703/704 game is for most a stopping point along to bigger and better. Managers know this and count on it for churning in the lower ranks...do you think CMA or NT wants a bunch of pilots on their 8th year scale, or would they rather you do a couple years, shove off, and get replaced by another pilot at year 1!? Those on the outside looking in often cannot grasp this and think that everyone is a whiner and why not just 'quit and let me have your job'. Well hey the time will come, and you'll see for yourself after a couple years. It is what it is, CMA and NT are both better companies than most, though far from great.
The companies are owned by the same 3 people- most of the income is generated by NT, while most of the expense is covered by CMA. Ergo NT is hugely profitable and CMA is marginally so (although it would seem like quite a feat to be one of the only companies in this part of the world not profiting hugely from the oil boom in their backyard, but that's a different story).
Anyhow the crew room gab goes like this. CMA runs groundschools and trains NT pilots, CMA lays off trained type rated pilots who are then picked up by NT, CMA engineers maintain NT aircraft in various bases, CMA maintains parts supply in various bases, the aircraft are 'dual registered' to both companies and can operate on either's OC...but who's paying the rent? One company covers a lot of the expense for the other.
Everyone knows charter can be hugely profitable if you have regular clients and the economy is good- yes and yes for NT right now. Flying for O&G producers and gold companies Ka-CHING these days. Not to mention being able to take advantage of several high profile failures on the west coast in the past 2 yrs. The company is obviously doing something right, and their pilots are paid more than CMA's because they a) work more days b) self dispatch c ) fly difficult charters d) their company is profitable (partly because of the above reasons).
Conversely CMA pilots a) work fewer days b) type B dispatch c ) fly easy skeds d) their company is not profitable (up for debate).
What this does is provide easy talking points to be brought up at meetings when comparing one to the other. CMA pilots ask for more $, and are not-so-subtlely reminded that they are porcelain skinned pretty boys with fancy hats that don't really work that hard. NT pilots complain about their lack of a personal life, and are reminded that they have to work hard for their huge dough
.Either way, who knows maybe on the next downturn people will get sick and tired and xsbank's prediction will come true and they will unionize. Just for god's sake do it together so you can't be played off against each other a la AC and Jazz. Those who pursue it do so with extreme caution though as management has a history of being lets just say quite anti labour.
Until then though just keep your head down, do your job safely and quietly and plan your exit. Airlines and the industry in general in the 703/704 game is for most a stopping point along to bigger and better. Managers know this and count on it for churning in the lower ranks...do you think CMA or NT wants a bunch of pilots on their 8th year scale, or would they rather you do a couple years, shove off, and get replaced by another pilot at year 1!? Those on the outside looking in often cannot grasp this and think that everyone is a whiner and why not just 'quit and let me have your job'. Well hey the time will come, and you'll see for yourself after a couple years. It is what it is, CMA and NT are both better companies than most, though far from great.
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Swamp Donkey
- Rank 3
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:56 pm
- Location: West
