Steep Turns At Low Altitude

[AuxBatOn]

that sounds to me not like a slipping turn - something I still don't understand why you would intentionally do at low level in the circuit

You don’t understand the purpose of a slipping turn in the circuit?

When would you find a use for a slipping turn?

I have to admit that I haven't yet found or been shown a use for one. A side or forward slip on final, of course, but I'm coming up short on reasons to aim for my crosswind, base and final turns to be anything but coordinated.

But I'm the first to say that I still have a lot to learn.

You should not aim to sideslip your turns however it is a tool that can be used to lose altitude in the turn if you find yourself high, setting yourself up on glide slope and on speed further back.

[photofly]

that sounds to me not like a slipping turn - something I still don't understand why you would intentionally do at low level in the circuit

You don’t understand the purpose of a slipping turn in the circuit?

When would you find a use for a slipping turn?

I have to admit that I haven't yet found or been shown a use for one.

Re-read page 87 of the Flight Training Manual.

[TalkingPie]

Thanks, gentlemen, for adding an additional tool to my toolkit; I've always adjusted for excessive altitude on landing by a combination of turning base later, reducing throttle or adding flaps sooner, and performing a forward slip on final. I'll have to play with using a slipping turn. I imagine it would be the most useful for forced landing practice.

For the purposes of the OP's issue, though, would it not be better to start with the fundamentals - flying a circuit that allows coordinated turns onto base and final without excessive bank?

[the-minister31]

I have to admit that I've always find it contradictive to teach a slipping turn with the use being "if you are too high on a base to final turn you can use that" then saying that an uncoordinated base to final turn increases the risk on spin to a student pilot.

I get that when it's done correctly without loading the wings, it's not dangerous and all that... but it is unforgivable, you @#$! up, you die. And for what? To correct a high approach? You must be very freakin high to need a slipping turn to correct. How about going around? Or wait until you are straight at least?

[Pratt X 3]

Why Skids Are More Dangerous Than Slips

[photofly]

then saying that an uncoordinated base to final turn increases the risk on spin to a student pilot.

People who know what they’re talking about don’t say that, because it’s not true.


Skids are bad, but slips are good. Both are uncoordinated turns, but only one is dangerous.

One would hope that you, as the minister, would know that. If not, you should read your own Flight Training Manual.

Or wait until you are straight at least?

Is there a face-palm emote here?

[photofly]

For the purposes of the OP's issue, though, would it not be better to start with the fundamentals - flying a circuit that allows coordinated turns onto base and final without excessive bank?

Slipping turns are fundamental. Ever flown an airplane without flaps?

[TalkingPie]

For the purposes of the OP's issue, though, would it not be better to start with the fundamentals - flying a circuit that allows coordinated turns onto base and final without excessive bank?

Slipping turns are fundamental. Ever flown an airplane without flaps?

Yes. Well it was a simulated exercise, as the planes I've been around in my short flying "career" have all had functional flaps. The first time I tried to land no flaps I had to go around because I completely misjudged my speed and height and was way too fast on short final. Second attempt landed fine but with a fair bit of float in the flare. I can certainly see how a slipping turn would be useful - but not critical - in that scenario.

In the context of a just-soloed PPL student, I'd suggest that learning to turn base and final without risking falling out of the sky are more fundamental than worrying about slipping turns right now. OP is scared during his turns at low level and has already had a close call with an incipient spin at circuit height. I feel that those issues are the most crucial to resolve right now. In my limited experience, you don't need slipping turns to solve that, and in fact you don't even need them in order to safely pass the PPL check ride. Walk before you run.

[CpnCrunch]

People who know what they’re talking about don’t say that, because it’s not true.

It is.

Skids are bad, but slips are good. Both are uncoordinated turns, but only one is dangerous.

Nope. Slipping turns can lead to "over the top" spin entry, or even a snap roll, if a wing is stalled:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -the-stall

https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/snaps.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nm_hoH ... re=related

One would hope that you, as the minister, would know that. If not, you should read your own Flight Training Manual.

One would hope you as a flight instructor would understand the risks of slipping turns.

[photofly]

The minister says that slipping turns are used to lose height turning final, and are especially useful on forced approaches. His Flight Instructor Guide says (my emphasis)

The side-slip and slipping turn should first be demonstrated and practised at altitude until the student learns how to use the controls. Subsequent demonstrations of the practical applications should be given near the ground.

I’m looking some official advice about the utility or positive wisdom or skidding turns low to the ground, but, strangely I can’t find any.

If you think the two are both equally dangerous then I will go and do an hour of low and slow slipping turns, and you go and do an hour of low and slow skidding turns, and then we’ll come back and compare notes.

[Schooner69A]

Sideslipping to lose altitude is a very useful tool to have in your grab bag of aviation tricks. My current ride (RV-7A) doesn't like to slow down - it's almost a case of "you can slow down or you can go down, but not at the same time".

I have sideslipped from the turn-to-base all the way into the flare. It is an extremely useful manoeuvre and easily mastered...

[photofly]

So you didn’t snap roll? Or spin over the top?
Amazing that you lived.

[digits_]

Nope. Slipping turns can lead to "over the top" spin entry, or even a snap roll, if a wing is stalled:

Sure. Pulling up in a flare can lead to a stall as well. Does that mean go-arounds are unsafe?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -the-stall

This link says you can snap roll if you slip and stall and are rough on the controls. That's possible.

https://www.av8n.com/how/htm/snaps.html

This link specifically mentions a list of scenarios where slippipng turns are useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nm_hoH ... re=related

This guy started an spin recovery without lowering the nose. Or, you could say he started a slipping turn after he stalled. Nobody is advocating doing this or teaching this.


It is *much* easier ending upside down unintentially in a skidding turn than in a slipping turn.

[photofly]

I can not believe we’re having this conversation. I have to pinch myself.

[digits_]

I can not believe we’re having this conversation. I have to pinch myself.

You're approaching the Grumpy Old Man stage of your life

[CpnCrunch]

I can not believe we’re having this conversation. I have to pinch myself.

Yes, indeed.

Nobody is saying that skids aren't more dangerous than slipping turns, or that you can't safely do slipping turns if you keep the airspeed up. (Check above comments if you don't believe me...) Sometimes people here just like to argue about things that are only a problem in their own heads...

Anyway, I think we are in agreement that airspeed is key, and you should keep the ball centred unless you are deliberately doing a slip, and in that case you need to keep the airspeed up.

[rookiepilot]

People need to think why the ground is littered with bodies that spun in after messing up the base to final turn.

Hint, they weren't slipping.

I'd bet most of them had a strong tailwind on base, too, and maybe just moved up a class in their aircraft.

Important to understand what you might get away with in a 172 in such a scenario, you won't in a cirrus or Aerostar.

[CpnCrunch]

People need to think why the ground is littered with bodies that spun in after messing up the base to final turn.

Hint, they weren't slipping.

I'd bet most of them had a strong tailwind on base, too, and maybe just moved up a class in their aircraft.

Important to understand what you might get away with in a 172 in such a scenario, you won't in a cirrus or Aerostar.

The main problem seems to be steep turns / high load factor in the circuit by people not keeping their airspeed up. Some planes, like the C150, will drop a wing with the slightest amount of yaw during a stall.

[challenger_nami]

Steep turns are evasive actions to avoid collisions with terrain, terrific, obstacles ... what have you.

I am not saying start practicing low altitude steep turns solo, but do practice them with a competent second pilot. As you gain more experience as a pilot, You should be mentally ready for steep turns at at any altitude.

When you are in that situation, your choices are limited. So you got to be prepared to deal with it.

Let’s say, you are in an uncontrolled airport, turning base to final ... fully configured for landing ... low and slow at 500’ AGL. Then you notice this aircraft on final and you are surly about to collide. The only thing that can help avoid the collision is that dreaded 45 degree steep turn.

If you had practiced the low level steep turns before, you are ready for the challenge. you just make that 45 steep turn and live. You land the airplane and walk to the other airplane and start yelling at him/her ... and you realize that the idiot was NORDO and not monitoring the ATF.

Sure it makes passengers REALLY uncomfortable, but then they will thank you when they realize what happened.

If you were mentally ready for steep turns Only above 3000 AGL ... then I am afraid chances of the mid-air collision is very high. .

[digits_]

Steep turns are evasive actions to avoid collisions with terrain, terrific, obstacles ... what have you. You should be mentally ready for them at at any altitude.

When you are in that situation, your choices are limited. So you got to be prepared to deal with it.

Let’s say, you are in an uncontrolled airport, turning base to final ... fully configured for landing ... low and slow at 500’ AGL. Then you notice this aircraft on final and you are surly about to collide. The only thing that can help avoid the collision is that dreaded 45 degree steep turn.

Most airplanes are more responsive in pitch vs roll and turn. If you want to avoid mid air collisions at the last second, your best bet is to climb or descend.

Also, it's perfectly possible to do steep turns without your passengers feeling a thing. They won't be level, but if you're in the circuit for landing, that shouldn't be an issue.

[challenger_nami]

Most airplanes are more responsive in pitch vs roll and turn. If you want to avoid mid air collisions at the last second, your best bet is to climb or descend.

Also, it's perfectly possible to do steep turns without your passengers feeling a thing. They won't be level, but if you're in the circuit for landing, that shouldn't be an issue.

Sure Digits, you do whatever works for you.
And maybe you don’t ever need to learn how to do steep turns at low level... because you just don’t feel like you need to.

I am sure YOU just pitch the nose down 10 degrees while at 500 feet AGL... or pitch 10 degrees up, even though you are kind of slow ... at your approach speed.

Not everyone is a top gun as you are. And passengers do feel the 45 degree bank close to the ground... and even in higher altitudes. No matter how well and coordinated the pilot does it. They see the ground and hear the engine surge.

Don’t you agree?

[digits_]

Most airplanes are more responsive in pitch vs roll and turn. If you want to avoid mid air collisions at the last second, your best bet is to climb or descend.

Also, it's perfectly possible to do steep turns without your passengers feeling a thing. They won't be level, but if you're in the circuit for landing, that shouldn't be an issue.

Sure Digits, you do whatever works for you.
And don’t you ever learn how to do steep turns at low level.
I am sure YOU just pitch the nose down 10 degrees while at 500 feet AGL.
Not everyone is a top gun as you are. And passengers do feel the 45 degree bank close to the ground. No matter how well the pilot does it.

If you are in danger of colliding with another plane, that's most likely because you perceive it to be at the same altitude as you. If that's the case, why would you raise a wing up and down about 10ft? That's an extra 20ft of airspace where a plane can hit you.

Try it out. If you pull up to simulate avoiding an airplane, you'll be up a 100 ft within a second. Most airplanes zoom quite well. If you try rolling, you might get to 30 degrees of bank in a second, but you'll still be at roughly the same heading, heading towards the plane.

Generally speaking, it's inefficient and bad advice to try avoid an airplane by rolling. It's not a personal preference, it's a fact.

There's lots of reasons to learn steep turns at low altitude, but avoiding traffic is not one of them. There's better ways of doing that.

At 500 ft AGL I'd probably pitch the nose up to avoid traffic if I have to. Pulling up is much more comfortable anyway, and less chance you'll overstress the airplane. But pushing down works just as well if required.

If you make a 45 degree base to final turn, you're most likely descending, and your passengers shouldn't feel much difference from a 30 degree level turn. Try it out at altitude if you like, and try to focus on what you feel. If you still feel a lot of force, lower the nose a bit. It won't affect your flight path much for the duration of the turn, but it will be a much smoother ride.

[the-minister31]

Skids are bad, but slips are good. Both are uncoordinated turns, but only one is dangerous.

One would hope that you, as the minister, would know that. If not, you should read your own Flight Training Manual.

The point is, when you skid or slip, you cross control. If you don't watch your airspeed properlyin the approach phase, you risk stalling. Stalling with crossed controls will induce a spin. That's all I am saying. So yes, the risk of spinning in a cross controls situation is greater than with the ball centered. How is that even a debate? One is not less "spin-inducing" than the other...


Also my point is that you really do not need to slip-turn to make a proper approach. Turn wider, plan wiser, drop flaps, gear, go-around. No need to cross-control at low airspeed. It's perfectly doable when you know your aircraft and the physics behind it, but it's really not an "essential" technique imho.

Wasn't it you that shamed other on this very forum for "instructor bashing"?

[digits_]

Well, it's definitely essential if you want to get your license.

[the-minister31]

Well, it's definitely essential if you want to get your license.

Good point, but I'm just wondering of one need to put as much emphasis at TC wants us to. I do teach them, but I always feel that if you plan your approach correctly, one would not even need to slip at all, yet TC put sooooo much emphasis on it.

Why cross control if you don't need to? That's what I'm asking myself...