Has anybody given up?

[newlygrounded]

I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.

I don't know anyone who expects to jump into a comfortable position out of flight school, I've seen so many people burned by things like "pilot in waiting" Reading some other posts here, even many of the people who "made it" seem deeply unhappy.

Almost all the careers you listed above have a decent chance of actually ending up in a career, how many CPL's never get a job?

[rookiepilot]

I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.

I don't know anyone who expects to jump into a comfortable position out of flight school, I've seen so many people burned by things like "pilot in waiting" Reading some other posts here, even many of the people who "made it" seem deeply unhappy.

Almost all the careers you listed above have a decent chance of actually ending up in a career, how many CPL's never get a job?

I don't know.
Loads of starving lawyers, and subsidence level doctors, though. Look at the small business folks now, too. I'm one, having a horrid year. Just part of being in business.
Qualifying is only part of any journey. Tenacity is required, too.

[digits_]

I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.

Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

You can still be new to the field and be treated with respect and do work you were actually trained for. It doesn't have to be like this.

But hey, silly me still said "screw it", and move half way across the globe to beg bush operators for a job

Aviation, a cruel mistress....

[rookiepilot]

Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

LOL, back.

That is a classic wine and dine of new grads. Called, seduction. Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.

[newlygrounded]

I don't get the complaining I always read about the early years in an aviation career.

News Flash: Its NO DIFFERENT in any other high potential, professional level career, law, medicine, business, architecture, engineering. Look it up. It's called tuition.

Does everyone expect to jump right from flight school to 6 legs a month back and forth to HK in a 777 and 500K?

Paying your dues is part of the deal.

Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

You can still be new to the field and be treated with respect and do work you were actually trained for. It doesn't have to be like this.

But hey, silly me still said "screw it", and move half way across the globe to beg bush operators for a job

Aviation, a cruel mistress....

Yeah I feel a lot of people here have an outdated view of other careers, if you're in a field with any sort of demand you're getting begged to apply for jobs that will give you 6 figures day 1 out of school (this isn't my goal, but just for reference)

Even during this pandemic, a lot of people I know are getting raises, meanwhile the opposite is happening in the aviation sector. If you're willing to do another job is the juice worth the squeeze? And for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?

Lol, it might be part of the aviation deal, but it's definitely not required in all those areas you mentioned.

I literally got invited to free karting races, caviar and champagne dinners and other exclusive activities by companies trying to get me to work for them. That was in my last year at university. The same for my class mates. Neither of us were really in the top end of our class. They tried to convince as many of us to apply at their company. Some big multinationals, others major national firms.

LOL, back.

That is a classic wine and dine of new grads. Called, seduction. Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.

I disagree, my engineer and business grad friends do all of 2 hours of work a day at most, and now from their own couch. Regardless everyone I know in the careers you mentioned have always been treated with respect. Speaking of being owned, none of them have had to sign a bond to stay for two years. But we're getting off topic at this point.

[digits_]

Then you sign on, and they bury you with 14 hours of work a day. They own you, bud.

That game is as old as the hills.

No free lunch exists, and surely not from any multinational firm.

Some do, pay well above average, and were upfront about it.

Others don't. Advertised a 9 to 5 job, still paid well, and actually gave that schedule they promised.

They also never own you. No bonds.



You still don't see a difference with aviation? Getting a hangar tour was the most regal treatment I've ever experienced.


There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.

[rookiepilot]

They also never own you. No bonds.

There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.

Oh, they own you all right....no bond, but in other ways. It's harder. Get a reputation in some fields as a whiner, and you're toast for advancement. Don't kid yourself about how cutthroat it is out there. These are small, small communities, and nothing is off the record.

And the reason for the unending supply of pilots is everyone is gunning for that 6 day, 500 k left seat to HKG or SIN.

Same reason for unending law school students, seeking that million dollar partnership.

Medicine, to become a million dollar top surgeon.

Same in my field.

Nothing new under the sun.

[newlygrounded]

They also never own you. No bonds.

There is absolutely no need for the "paying your dues" in its current form. It happens because employers get away with it due to the ample supply of applicants. That's the only reason.

Oh, they own you all right....no bond, but in other ways. It's harder. Get a reputation in some fields as a whiner, and you're toast for advancement. Don't kid yourself about how cutthroat it is out there. These are small, small communities, and nothing is off the record.

And the reason for the unending supply of pilots is everyone is gunning for that 6 day, 500 k left seat to HKG or SIN.

Same reason for unending law school students, seeking that million dollar partnership.

Medicine, to become a million dollar top surgeon.

Same in my field.

Nothing new under the sun.

Every single thing you've mentioned is worse in aviation. No doctors or lawyers pay to work but there are schemes were pilots do

[altiplano]

I don't totally agree with what your saying but I'm gonna throw in the towel and call my school when they open to cancel the rest of my bookings

There you go... like really? You folded pretty easily...

It's not just going to come to you, you have to want it and go get it.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's not easy to succeed in this career, particularly in this country, and it's highly competitive. You have to come to a reckoning of if you have what it takes, maybe you just did that... but think hard on it

Honestly the big issue for me is I don't enjoy flying anymore (is this normal/permanent?) Is it worth it to give up so much for a career where you're likely to get fired 2 or 3 times?

Also what percent of CPL grads actually get a job? I'm incredibly worried if I make it that far I'll be like one of the many people who hold useless university degrees.

Whatever. Flying is a good job. But it's a job which I ladder to achieve what I want in the rest of my life. I don't dream about it or go rent planes when I'm done, but I appreciate my life at work, there are a lot of worse jobs. But I appreciate my life away from work more.

Most people won't get a license, of those most won't get a job, of those most won't get to an airline, let alone a major airline.

Odds aren't great, but they aren't pure odds, you can stack them in your favour, the harder you work in the game, the smarter you work the game, the longer you're in the game, your odds on success improve. Flash in the pan failures are just that, didn't have the staying power...

Good luck.

[photofly]

for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?

Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.

On that point I will wholeheartedly agree.

Look, I'm still in training, but I can tell you this - this career takes dedication, and it does take more dedication than most, save perhaps for doctors and lawyers. Maybe marine biologists. If you don't love it, you're pursuing the wrong career - and there's nothing wrong with that. Choose a different one.

But - newlygrounded - here's something else to consider: You're asking for career advice on a pilot foum, in the midst of the worst blow to the industry since the Wright flight. Take the advice with a grain of salt.

[rookiepilot]

for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?

Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.

Deleted.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

My best friend's wife is a pharmacist at Shoppers Drug Mart. Most of her classmates in university got free or heavily subsidized tuition paid for by Shoppers if they agreed to work for Shoppers for a set period of time after graduation. If they left Shoppers, I believe they had to pay back a portion of that tuition.

So, it's essentially a bond the same way we have bonds in aviation: The company will pay for your training if you stick around for a few years.

They also didn't have a choice where they got to work their first job. Most had to move to small towns in S.W. Ontario where Shoppers determined there was a need for pharmacists. This is also similar to aviation in which you don't know what base you'll be assigned until groundschool.

[newlygrounded]

for anyone who has burnt out during training, has your love of flying ever came back?

Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.

And I'm sorry, but using the word "burnt out" in relation to something like flight training disrespects that very word.

Are you kidding us?

A lot of shit life can throw at you -- --- a lot more serious.

For someone who has made a post about depression you don't seem to be very good at standing in someone else's shoes. You don't know the sacrifices people make to do the things they do. A small river will carve out a huge valley given enough time.

[AirFrame]

Referring to the thread title, not many people who have "given up" are going still to be reading around this forum.

This.

Anyone flying on this forum has either had an easier time, or fought their way through to get where they are. It's easier for some people, due to money, natural ability, whatever. It's harder for others, for some of the same reasons (or lacks thereof). At the end of the day, flying isn't for everyone. You either want it or you don't, and you do what you have to or you don't.

I even know a lot of people who are happy in their careers who never considered flying.

[sjatana]

A few years ago I started with a goal of working for a big airline in a few years, I was in my mid 20's and didn't have to money to commit to flying so I just studied theory and saved up for the flying. 4 years later I've been flying as much as I can but due to weather and how busy schools have been I'm multiple years into getting a PPL and there is still no end in sight! A lot of drama at the school has really taken the wind out of my sails as well.

Even in the best of times a year ago the industry entails 5 or 6 years of poverty wages living somewhere far away (so all your income goes to rent) before you get get into one of our two major carriers. If you don't own a place you're SOL and unlikely to ever be able to afford ot buy one.

Even once your in the pay, and job security is pretty terrible for the first few years. It looks like things are actually going to be even worse after the recovery due to weak bargaining.

I'm not sure if anyone else will disagree but I feel if you're in your 20's or 30's this career will take a giant bite out of you, and washing out with leave you with a lot of regret.

No, and I never will.

Your points are valid and I don't disagree with you. I've had the bug since as far back as I can remember in my life and although the current situation sucks this is a great career. It takes a lot of inside work to look past the realities of our industry and the current situation. I started a bit later as a career changer with zero regrets. I've always believed in doing what you love and I am lucky to say that it actually pays off in how content with life one is. Then again, I'm not chasing $$$, the big house or the fancy car...

I don't judge anyone that gives up. Everyone has their reasons and people should do what's best for them.

[youhavecontrol]

Don't give up.

I had zero savings and pretty 'meh' marks in high school, which made it difficult to apply for financial assistance and scholarships. I lived in a rural area which was too far away from a cadet program. Where I came from, saying you wanted to be a pilot was almost like saying you wanted to be an astronaut. The high school career councillor was like, "um... are you sure? We don't have any information about pilots to give you."

So what did I do? Straight out of high school, I took my H2S safety course, First Aid, WHMIS, TDG, Confined Spaces, and started a job in the oilfield as a pipeliner. I remember slogging through knee deep mud, looking up at the pipeline patrol aircraft flying overhead thinking "one day.." After two years, I had enough savings to start my training. I was bad with money though and the money ran out when I started my CPL training. I had to put it on pause, but because of a recession, I could not go back to the oilfield, so I spent 2 years working as the lead janitor at our college. After two years, I had a job offer operating a steam truck in the oilfield, so I left that and started operating a steam truck on rigs and frac's in Northern Alberta and Southern Manitoba for a few years. Once I finally had paid off my debt and saved a bunch of money, I completed my CPL and instructor's rating.

I started a job as an instructor and spent 5 years teaching, while saving up for my Group 1 rating. Once I had that finished, I took on a job with a great 703 company and have been employed and loving it ever since. It took a while of slogging through the sh*t, but if you really want it, you can do it. Compared to what I used to do, my job is pretty freaking amazing. It might be a little less $, but no more breathing in diesel exhaust, throwing chains on my tires, or worrying about H2S leaks and sitting it ditches.

[rookiepilot]

Struggling to see how taking multiple years to part-get a PPL meets the test for “burning out”, but look, if you don’t enjoy flying then you really are in the wrong career path.

And I'm sorry, but using the word "burnt out" in relation to something like flight training disrespects that very word.

Are you kidding us?

A lot of shit life can throw at you -- --- a lot more serious.

For someone who has made a post about depression you don't seem to be very good at standing in someone else's shoes. You don't know the sacrifices people make to do the things they do. A small river will carve out a huge valley given enough time.

Are you A) making fun of depression?
Or B ) are depressed yourself?

If it's really B) I suspect the reasons might run deeper than the status of flight training.

If it's A) we have nothing more to discuss.

[digits_]

And I'm sorry, but using the word "burnt out" in relation to something like flight training disrespects that very word.

Are you kidding us?

A lot of shit life can throw at you -- --- a lot more serious.

For someone who has made a post about depression you don't seem to be very good at standing in someone else's shoes. You don't know the sacrifices people make to do the things they do. A small river will carve out a huge valley given enough time.

Are you A) making fun of depression?
Or B ) are depressed yourself?

If it's really B) I suspect the reasons might run deeper than the status of flight training.

If it's A) we have nothing more to discuss.

He's got a valid point though.

"Talk about depression, reach out... except if I find the reason not serious enough, then shut up".

If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.

[rookiepilot]

For someone who has made a post about depression you don't seem to be very good at standing in someone else's shoes. You don't know the sacrifices people make to do the things they do. A small river will carve out a huge valley given enough time.

Are you A) making fun of depression?
Or B ) are depressed yourself?

If it's really B) I suspect the reasons might run deeper than the status of flight training.

If it's A) we have nothing more to discuss.

He's got a valid point though.

"Talk about depression, reach out... except if I find the reason not serious enough, then shut up".

If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.

He's not referring to depression re (his) situation at all. So I have no idea what he, or you, are talking about. Hence, I asked.

[photofly]

If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.

Depression isn’t a charter right: it’s a diagnosis, and a serious medical disorder.

[digits_]

If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.

Depression isn’t a charter right: it’s a diagnosis, and a serious medical disorder.

Agreed. But if an undiagnosed depressed or burned out person is afraid to seek help because he hasn't had a certain amount of shit in his life, then he might never get that diagnosis and/or the help needed.

So implying that a certain situation is not enough to be considered burned out, does not help anyone.

[CpnCrunch]

A big issue for me is house prices always go up where I am, in 1 month they went up $100,000 and they kept going up the rest of the year. I honestly don't find flying even fun anymore but I'm not sure if that's just the burnout talking or is it a permanent thing.

It sounds like your school might be part of the problem. Flying should be fun, but if there are a lot of hassles related to your training, then that will suck the joy out of it.

[rookiepilot]

If you start comparing the shit life has thrown at you as a benchmark to decide whether or not someone has the right to call himself depressed or burned out, you're destroying everything you've tried to build up in other threads.

Depression isn’t a charter right: it’s a diagnosis, and a serious medical disorder.

Agreed. But if an undiagnosed depressed or burned out person is afraid to seek help because he hasn't had a certain amount of shit in his life, then he might never get that diagnosis and/or the help needed.

So implying that a certain situation is not enough to be considered burned out, does not help anyone.

Deleted

[digits_]

If it's serious enough to be clinical depression --- which is a whole lot different than "burn out" -- whatever that means ---

You're doing it again. Clinical depression is real, but "burn out" deserves quotes and a "whatever that means"? Seriously?
Yes they are different, but both have serious consequences for ones mental health.

These terms aren't to be thrown around lightly, and agreeing for a second that a lousy flight training experience is likely ever the cause of a serious, major life issue isn't doing anyone any favours.

How often is depression caused by a single issue? How often does it have a single cause?

It is entirely plausible that a never ending frustration with trying to achieve your dream and seeing that reward and achievement pushed out of reach time after time, could be the significant issue that pushes you to just beyond what you can tolerate, making you wonder if you should give up.