Residential School Airplane

[rookiepilot]

But the fact remains -- to this day -- and I've been to several: No one gives a crap about the reserves or anyone there. That is a fact.

That's not entirely true. One way to check on how much one gives, is to follow the money. A lot of money is spent on reserves. Medevac is expensive. New schools and nursing stations are being built. As a native, you have access to a lot of programs to improve your life if you so desire. Greatly reduced (or free?) university for example.

What would you change if you were in charge?

I understand that a dark history of abuse can heavily affect ones future. On the other hand, I can't really see a working solution unless that solution comes from within the communities themselves. If you torch houses where your teachers live, if you sabotage medevac planes, if you give sub par housing to the people who didn't vote you in as chief,... then the situation will not improve.

Native people have been pushed into a victim role. To improve, that should stop. Support them with what they need, absolutely, but make it part of a plan or strategy as to how it could improve the situation.

It's complicated.

Very complicated, and I've had --(and friends of mine a lot more) more exposure than the average CBC reader. Certainly a lot of mental health support needed.

How about a little more than "It's a choice to move on, suck it up princess" That is a comment from someone clueless about the effects of long term systemic abuse on a person's mental state.

[digits_]

How about a little more than "It's a choice to move on, suck it up princess" That is a comment from someone clueless about the effects of long term systemic abuse on a person's mental state.

It is a bit of a crude statement, but the essence I think is there. You need to be willing to move on, otherwise nothing will happen. That doesn't mean the 'moving on' can't be supported by mental health professionals, but it does need to happen at some point. It also doesn't mean the moving on part is easy.


From an armchair perspective, one thing that should be relatively easy to achieve yet be quite effective, would be to give people/families ownership of the home they are living in. Some pride of ownership should drastically increase the general run down atmosphere in some reserves. If you own your home, chances are you probably won't be burning the floor and walls to save on heating costs. It also prevents the music chair home shuffle after a new chief election.

[rookiepilot]

How about a little more than "It's a choice to move on, suck it up princess" That is a comment from someone clueless about the effects of long term systemic abuse on a person's mental state.

It is a bit of a crude statement, but the essence I think is there. You need to be willing to move on, otherwise nothing will happen. That doesn't mean the 'moving on' can't be supported by mental health professionals, but it does need to happen at some point. It also doesn't mean the moving on part is easy.


From an armchair perspective, one thing that should be relatively easy to achieve yet be quite effective, would be to give people/families ownership of the home they are living in. Some pride of ownership should drastically increase the general run down atmosphere in some reserves. If you own your home, chances are you probably won't be burning the floor and walls to save on heating costs. It also prevents the music chair home shuffle after a new chief election.

I think it’s time to put an all weather road into NW ontario. Some chiefs want it, others don’t. I don’t think the isolation is a positive.

[rxl]

But the fact remains -- to this day -- No one gives a crap about the reserves or anyone there. That is a fact.

No one gives a crap about residential schools either. It was a hundred years ago.

desalvo, Do some homework. This is all within very recent living memory.

[shimmydampner]

I think it’s time to put an all weather road into NW ontario.

To where? And what about the dozens of other fly in communities around the country?

[Beefitarian]

Is an all weather road even possible? I have seen roads in southern Alberta that became impassible due to heavy rain. Becoming stranded on one of those would be a bad enough experience and you would most likely survive at least.

I’m relieved others mentioned residential schools being a pretty serious problem until the end of the 1900s not the beginning. I have spoken with people that went in the 1970s. Taken away from their mom. I don’t even want to write anymore about it.

I feel like trying to somehow provide safe drinking water, while maybe an overwhelmingly difficult task. Definitely should be a priority of the people in government that often claim to care about indigenous people.

[rookiepilot]

I think it’s time to put an all weather road into NW ontario.

To where? And what about the dozens of other fly in communities around the country?

Through the ring of fire area. There have been studies.

I was asked by digits for a suggestion. I gave one, and of course now get trolled for it.

I’m completely unfamiliar with fly in communities outside Ont.

Water is another obvious problem. At least I’m commenting having briefly visited a few of these communities, and not from a CBC article.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

There is actually an all-weather road being built - to Webequie I think, and one of the neighboring communities. Let me see if I can find it...

Yeah:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/northern-road-link-project
http://northernroadlink.ca/

As far as I understand, it would link the communities of Webequie and Marten Falls, which already have an all weather road between them, to highway 11. Environmental impact assessments started in May of this year if I have it right.

I've also heard rumors of a bridge being built, or at least surveys being done, over the Albany River for a road that would possiblly link to Moosonee and Attawapaiskat and Fort Albany.

It's definitely in the works - and in no small part because, due to global warming, the winter road network in NO is becoming unreliable.

[shimmydampner]

I was asked by digits for a suggestion. I gave one, and of course now get trolled for it.

I’m completely unfamiliar with fly in communities outside Ont.

Water is another obvious problem. At least I’m commenting having briefly visited a few of these communities, and not from a CBC article.

Not trolling, just curious. I'm just not convinced that road access does anything to solve the societal problems in these communities.

[rookiepilot]

I was asked by digits for a suggestion. I gave one, and of course now get trolled for it.

I’m completely unfamiliar with fly in communities outside Ont.

Water is another obvious problem. At least I’m commenting having briefly visited a few of these communities, and not from a CBC article.

Not trolling, just curious. I'm just not convinced that road access does anything to solve the societal problems in these communities.

Fair enough

[Beefitarian]

I’m not intentionally trying to troll. It just seems like if they could build roads to all the remote places, they would have. A road might be somewhat beneficial but are people there going to have a reliable enough vehicle to use it? Also I suspect it might actually be less expensive to use planes when people or things need to be transported between barge season and having a functional ice road.

I used to think asphalt was permanent, until I explored many of the British Commonwealth Air Training fields in my area. Walking around them it’s difficult to tell where the runways were because the weeds, grass and brush is growing back.

Reading the article I feel like the lady who suggested moving the Norseman to the float plane base seemed pretty reasonable. I don’t know if that’s possible. The funds and people required to do it may not be available.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I'm no expert on the matter - far from it. But one of the major problems with our fly-in communities is the sheer cost of goods. I haven't been to any, but I did spend some time in Iqaluit a few years back. Chapstick, for example, cost $7 or so a stick. A stalk of broccoli, $10. A carton of milk, $8 (these are just rough recollections). This is what an all season road could solve. (Well, perhaps not in Iqaluit or the Canadian Far North, but at least we can land a 737 in Iqaluit.)

Then, imagine for a moment, the astronomical cost of flying in construction materials - it simply isn't done in most cases. Everything needs to be trucked in on ice roads during the two months those roads are actually usable. If you run out of anything during the summer construction season (which is quite short in the north), you're waiting until the next year.

It would open up resource extraction (which is a whole other can of worms beyond the scope of this comment) to a vast population of indigenous people who currently have nearly insurmountable difficulties with finding reliable work to pay for that $10 broccoli.

All season roads would make prefab construction possible, for another thing. It's not just about the cost of travel, it's also about what can be transported, and when.

I think all season roads to our fly-in communities would make more difference than anyone could ever possibly imagine. Now of course, one could argue that they choose to live there, and should therefore hunt and gather as they always have, since time immemorial. But their way of life was destroyed - calculatingly and deliberately. Those means of sustenance have been lost, and we as a nation owe it to the people who live there to make them whole again.

[shimmydampner]

It's not just about the cost of travel, it's also about what can be transported, and when.

Don't forget, that cuts both ways.

I think all season roads to our fly-in communities would make more difference than anyone could ever possibly imagine.

In these communities, where addiction is already a disproportionately huge problem, easy access to cheap substances might outweigh the benefits.
There is no easy answer to magically make these places better for the people who live there.

[photofly]

In these communities, where addiction is already a disproportionately huge problem, easy access to cheap substances might outweigh the benefits.

"We mustn't build any roads! They're all addicts and will just overdose on cheaper narcotics!"

There is no easy answer to magically make these places better for the people who live there.

One could start by being a little bit less patronizing.

[rookiepilot]

One could start by being a little bit less patronizing.

The real patronizing is refusing to even acknowledge the real trauma this people group has experienced, refuse to give them the mental health tools needed to move forward, and continue to refer to them as lazy Indians addicted to booze, pop and chips who need to suck it up and move on.

Don’t tell me that’s not a widespread attitude.

[valleyboy]

It seems for whatever reason I got sanctioned on my reply here but I will make a very short statement.

If you don't live or have lived the situation you have no real clue on what the "underbelly" truly is. Some even transit through the reserves and hamelt of the north more interested in building time than understanding the people they are servicing and situations of the people involved.

There certainly the "good, the bad and the ugly" on all sides.

[CruiserNU]

As a fifty year resident of an arctic hamlet where 90-percent of the population is Inuit, perhaps I have some limited insight into these problems (roads, addictions, lack of employment opportunities, housing shortage, etc.)

All-weather roads are, of course, possible. Hell, we built a railroad through the Rockies 150-years ago! Very expensive but do-able, given enough money and political will. But isolation is sometimes a good thing. A good example is how our isolation offered us some protection from Covid-19. Food, fuel and building materials might be marginally cheaper, though the trucking companies will tend to charge whatever the market will bear. Maintenance of an all-weather road would provide some much-needed employment, albeit at a high cost.

Easy road access to the south might exacerbate the addictions problem, though the drug dealers and bootleggers (all of whom are "locals" by the way) don't seem to be impeded by expensive air travel and air freight.

The housing problem is a direct result of the Nanny State treating people like children and not expecting them to look after themselves, at least to the extent that's possible. A welfare recipient pays zero dollars in rent - no fuel cost, no electric bill, no property tax, no maintenance costs, etc.). Same if you're a pensioner. How many old folks in the south can consider ninety-percent of their OAS cheque (plus the "Supplement") as disposable income?

People here have it pretty good, all things considered. Sure, the housing is kinda crappy, but it's free (because YOU are paying for it!) so few people bitch about a few missing floor tiles or the odd broken window. I''ll bet you that if the government were to ask people if they wanted an all-weather road they would, by a small majority, vote it down. Who needs it?

When there was a proposal, years ago, to build a hydro-electric plant here to eliminate the reliance on diesel fuel and lower the cost of power, it was rejected by the local population. Who needs cheaper power? Zero is pretty cheap!

The problems in northern communities and on reserves are probably very similar, but I have no experience with living on a reserve. From what I gather, though, the "chief and council" system is problematic and lends itself to corruption. We are relatively free of that disadvantage in most arctic communities.

[shimmydampner]

In these communities, where addiction is already a disproportionately huge problem, easy access to cheap substances might outweigh the benefits.

"We mustn't build any roads! They're all addicts and will just overdose on cheaper narcotics!"

There is no easy answer to magically make these places better for the people who live there.

One could start by being a little bit less patronizing.

Have you spent much time in fly-in communities?

I never said roads shouldn't be built. And I never said anything about narcotics or overdoses. And I certainly never said all of the people who live in these communities are addicts. So feel free to take your petty snipes all you want, but do not misrepresent what I'm saying.

I'm just pointing out that roads are not a magic solution to the social problems in these places, and they don't come without some negative aspects. And that's not just my opinion. That concern is often voiced by leaders in these communities when the question of roads comes up.

In my opinion, it is more patronizing for people who are not familiar with these fly-in communities (most Canadians) to offer simplistic solutions to complex problems they know nothing about. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think or what a bunch of internet experts who've never set foot in a fly-in community think. If government and/or industry wants to build a road, the final say should rest with the community to determine what they feel is best for their people.

[rookiepilot]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatch ... SMcc-Rg-5k

750 more....

[hamstandard]

Wait til you read this article about the number of unmarked graves out there. More than 1 million in a single small island. Didn’t realize these things. And many are recent. Sounds like a widespread thing.

https://time.com/5913151/hart-island-covid/

[withthewesterlies]

Reading this post I am very glad that some people have sympathy and understanding for the people to which the North was their home first. For the people that have so loudly expressed the opposite opinion now is the time to learn about what happened and change your ideas. To entrench ones self in denial is the wrong path to follow.

The airplane as an inanimate object is a beautiful triumph of engineering, however, as a symbol it can be many different things to many different people. To the great people the North who were sheltered from the devastation of settlement until the bush plane arrived after WW2, it is a symbol of the destruction of their way of life and their families. I want anyone who does not sympathize with the survivors of residential schools to please take the time and imagine what it would have been like. Imagine being forcibly taken from your home as a child by an RCMP Officer and sent in a Norseman to a school so very far away to forget who you are and the culture that your civilization was built on. Then decide what you would think of the aircraft from which you watched your parents devastated crying faces and your community disappear from. What would an airplane mean to you if this was your first memory of it.


As pilots we must acknowledge the entire history of the Bush Plane in Canada. To us the Bush Plane is a symbol of exploration and the opening of Northern Canada. But we must also recognized that to the people who were already there long before the first float ever touched the water of their lakes it is a very different symbol.

[rookiepilot]

If you don't live or have lived the situation you have no real clue on what the "underbelly" truly is. Some even transit through the reserves and hamelt of the north more interested in building time than understanding the people they are servicing and situations of the people involved.

This. While making fun of the people who live there, even.

[digits_]

If you don't live or have lived the situation you have no real clue on what the "underbelly" truly is. Some even transit through the reserves and hamelt of the north more interested in building time than understanding the people they are servicing and situations of the people involved.

This. While making fun of the people who live there, even.

That's true, but that is partially caused because they are not the nicest places to fly in. Chicken and egg if you wish. If all those reserves were luxury resorts, the amount of time builders getting those jobs would be much much lower, because people would actually want the jobs.

I've flown in the reserves accompanied by someone who left his country because of a war. He worked himself up in Canada, put a lot of effort into getting a proper Canadian job. He was flabbergasted to learn that the people living in the reserves could get a free education, subsidized housing etc if they wanted to. All they had to do was travel to the university, and that seemed to be too big an effort. From his point of view, that is quite frustrating.

It is a complex problem, with no easy fix, but creating a divide by removing statues or symbols like the Norseman statue, only diverts attention from the real problem. Apparently now it would be offensive to celebrate Canada day this year, because of the recent residential school discoveries. Another discussion that diverts attention from the real issues.

Investigating the murders, and holding the people who committed the atrociities responsible in a court of law, should provide way more justice to the affected families than taking down an airplane or not celebrating a national holiday.

[rookiepilot]

Investigating the murders, and holding the people who committed the atrociities responsible in a court of law, should provide way more justice to the affected families than taking down an airplane or not celebrating a national holiday.

Totally agree. Free anything -- doesn't make up for being abused. So why isn't that necessary justice happening?

[Bede]

Reading this post I am very glad that some people have sympathy and understanding for the people to which the North was their home first. For the people that have so loudly expressed the opposite opinion now is the time to learn about what happened and change your ideas. To entrench ones self in denial is the wrong path to follow.

The airplane as an inanimate object is a beautiful triumph of engineering, however, as a symbol it can be many different things to many different people. To the great people the North who were sheltered from the devastation of settlement until the bush plane arrived after WW2, it is a symbol of the destruction of their way of life and their families. I want anyone who does not sympathize with the survivors of residential schools to please take the time and imagine what it would have been like. Imagine being forcibly taken from your home as a child by an RCMP Officer and sent in a Norseman to a school so very far away to forget who you are and the culture that your civilization was built on. Then decide what you would think of the aircraft from which you watched your parents devastated crying faces and your community disappear from. What would an airplane mean to you if this was your first memory of it.


As pilots we must acknowledge the entire history of the Bush Plane in Canada. To us the Bush Plane is a symbol of exploration and the opening of Northern Canada. But we must also recognized that to the people who were already there long before the first float ever touched the water of their lakes it is a very different symbol.

That’s an excellent post.