Vancouver Sun - BUY IT WEDNESDAY! SONIC BLUE SLAMMED......
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Dude, your frickin kidding right, Irampgenie wrote:Not only do you have to pay for your initial PPC at sonic, but they make you pay 2500$ to renew your PPC after a year of earning 500$ a month. In at least one case the pilot counldn't afford to pay for his renewal, so the company made him give up his automobile for use as a crew car.
This company is ...I don't have words for it anymore. To depressing
I come back to Canada quite often and to be honest I dont usually see much difference between the fares on a/c and wj....
And I wouldnt want to hold WJ stock....especially as part of a salary package, or as it would appear. Salary is just that....salary. It covers day to day costs and thus it has to be liquid (cash)....holding stock means nothing today unless you can use it to buy detergent. When you retire thats a different thing....if ofcourse it is worth anything then, which is probably wont....well unless you run out of wood to burn.
And I wouldnt want to hold WJ stock....especially as part of a salary package, or as it would appear. Salary is just that....salary. It covers day to day costs and thus it has to be liquid (cash)....holding stock means nothing today unless you can use it to buy detergent. When you retire thats a different thing....if ofcourse it is worth anything then, which is probably wont....well unless you run out of wood to burn.
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TorontoGuy
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Re the newspaper article.
Not very sound.
As a former newspaper reporter of more than a decade's experience, I read this and saw one disgruntled source and no other. Also, no documentation or evidence from the source. No one backing him up. Just unsubstantiated accusations and heresay.
Frankly, I'm not sure I would have submitted this story to my editors if the info had come to me. Hatchet jobs with no back-up weren't my style.
And you'd be surprised how many guys carrying grudges, complaints, conspiracy theories, contemplated law suits and all manner of other gripes, stories and accusations come through a news room's door every week. You learn pretty quickly to get a nose for news and a sense of what's just talk.
Not very sound.
As a former newspaper reporter of more than a decade's experience, I read this and saw one disgruntled source and no other. Also, no documentation or evidence from the source. No one backing him up. Just unsubstantiated accusations and heresay.
Frankly, I'm not sure I would have submitted this story to my editors if the info had come to me. Hatchet jobs with no back-up weren't my style.
And you'd be surprised how many guys carrying grudges, complaints, conspiracy theories, contemplated law suits and all manner of other gripes, stories and accusations come through a news room's door every week. You learn pretty quickly to get a nose for news and a sense of what's just talk.
Last edited by TorontoGuy on Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
not sure when the spilt was....but here is WJA on the tse: have a look at the 5 year and 1 charts boys and girls... what a performer....
I think most employees well other than those that held the stock since it went public! would take industry standard salaries over stock. Its a good idea in addition to a salary but not in place of.
http://www.tsx.com/HttpController?GetPa ... a&x=50&y=9
I think most employees well other than those that held the stock since it went public! would take industry standard salaries over stock. Its a good idea in addition to a salary but not in place of.
http://www.tsx.com/HttpController?GetPa ... a&x=50&y=9
I agree that the wages in the industry are generally appallingly low. That being said, do you also make the same comments when flying Air Canada or Jazz as their starting wages are virtually identical or lower than Westjet?sky's the limit wrote: My company flies me around on WJ frequently, and I usualy let the people beside me know what the starting wages are for their Flight Crew - lets just say the reaction isn't positive.
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sky's the limit
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Yes.
And time permitting, I also tell them about pension plans, benefits, and the fact that the "Low-cost" carriers have ushered in a new era where even the large airlines are, for the most part, drastically revamping their pay structure.
I'm just not sure why we're all so anxious to buy into what they're selling... I don't think Milton or Clive are hurting - do you?
STL
And time permitting, I also tell them about pension plans, benefits, and the fact that the "Low-cost" carriers have ushered in a new era where even the large airlines are, for the most part, drastically revamping their pay structure.
I'm just not sure why we're all so anxious to buy into what they're selling... I don't think Milton or Clive are hurting - do you?
STL
There is a big article in the Province today. I am so happy that Ed's family and other's are speaking up.
Once again if the goverment lets companies pay as little as they do, people are going jump through that loop hole.
Also another fact for you, Sonic captains pilots work 14 hour days (usually 6 hour break away from home) for about 55-80/day (dependent on mileage), FO's just cut that in half. Caravan pilots made more.
I really hope the media are reading this website, because people need to know this stuff, and it has to change.
Once again if the goverment lets companies pay as little as they do, people are going jump through that loop hole.
Also another fact for you, Sonic captains pilots work 14 hour days (usually 6 hour break away from home) for about 55-80/day (dependent on mileage), FO's just cut that in half. Caravan pilots made more.
I really hope the media are reading this website, because people need to know this stuff, and it has to change.
I've been saying this for years and years and yes, here it is again: YOU ARE THE ONLY PART OF THE 'PLANE WHOSE COSTS ARE NEGOTIABLE. Capital cost? Fuel? Parts costs? Insurance? Hangar rent? BMW lease costs?
"Not doing so good this month - tell the bank we'll start paying them again in July; tell the fueler we'll pay him half-price for the fuel coz its too expensive; phone the parts guy and tell him to send us $5000 and a F.C.U., we'll start paying him if he improves his delivery times; Oh, and tell the pilots they need to increase their training bonds, and when they get to 1000 hours we'll start paying them again." Which part of this is true?
Why should the pilot take the hit? We shouldn't, but almost all of us will, because there's too many of us and the 'rules' make it impossible to rock the boat, blow the whistle, or move to another job. "Oh, don't hire him, he called TC at the last place he worked." "Oh, don't hire him, he snags everything." "Oh don't hire him, he likes to ski/boat/camp/live a life after work." "Oh, don't hire him, he likes to be home for his family occasionally."
Wonder why the cost of building something has almost tripled in 5 years? Coz everybody's doing it and there is a shortage of carpenters.
Are any other 'professions' told that "...if you SURVIVE your apprenticeship you might get a chance to quit your first few employers and finally get a job where you can afford groceries?"
Somebody has to just start saying no, and realize the market is glutted with pilots, many of whom will either not survive or will end up at the food banks. Do you really want to live like a MacDonald's employee for years and years and possibly die very young?
Entitlement works both ways - pax think they are entitled to rock-bottom prices, pilots think they are entitled to be pilots. Decide that if you want to be a pilot, that you are worth something - if there are no takers or the market is not interested, go back to school.
With great respect and condolences to the family of our lost fellow aviator, please do not let the death of another of our number pass in vain, or his struggle be forgotten.
"Not doing so good this month - tell the bank we'll start paying them again in July; tell the fueler we'll pay him half-price for the fuel coz its too expensive; phone the parts guy and tell him to send us $5000 and a F.C.U., we'll start paying him if he improves his delivery times; Oh, and tell the pilots they need to increase their training bonds, and when they get to 1000 hours we'll start paying them again." Which part of this is true?
Why should the pilot take the hit? We shouldn't, but almost all of us will, because there's too many of us and the 'rules' make it impossible to rock the boat, blow the whistle, or move to another job. "Oh, don't hire him, he called TC at the last place he worked." "Oh, don't hire him, he snags everything." "Oh don't hire him, he likes to ski/boat/camp/live a life after work." "Oh, don't hire him, he likes to be home for his family occasionally."
Wonder why the cost of building something has almost tripled in 5 years? Coz everybody's doing it and there is a shortage of carpenters.
Are any other 'professions' told that "...if you SURVIVE your apprenticeship you might get a chance to quit your first few employers and finally get a job where you can afford groceries?"
Somebody has to just start saying no, and realize the market is glutted with pilots, many of whom will either not survive or will end up at the food banks. Do you really want to live like a MacDonald's employee for years and years and possibly die very young?
Entitlement works both ways - pax think they are entitled to rock-bottom prices, pilots think they are entitled to be pilots. Decide that if you want to be a pilot, that you are worth something - if there are no takers or the market is not interested, go back to school.
With great respect and condolences to the family of our lost fellow aviator, please do not let the death of another of our number pass in vain, or his struggle be forgotten.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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just another pilot
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xsbank - good post.
Do you realize that navajo pilots in the 70's were making more than turbine captains today? Living wages are a paramount issue in aviation today, and the only solution (and the only power) a prospective empoyee has is the ability to say "no thanks I cannot live on that". If not your skills, than at least your time must be worth something - if not, it was never a viable career to begin with. All bullshit aside - that is the simple truth.
Do you realize that navajo pilots in the 70's were making more than turbine captains today? Living wages are a paramount issue in aviation today, and the only solution (and the only power) a prospective empoyee has is the ability to say "no thanks I cannot live on that". If not your skills, than at least your time must be worth something - if not, it was never a viable career to begin with. All bullshit aside - that is the simple truth.
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flynbutcher
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For the first time in since joining AvCanada, I have found a topic that has really pissed me off and actully made me angryrampgenie wrote:Not only do you have to pay for your initial PPC at sonic, but they make you pay 2500$ to renew your PPC after a year of earning 500$ a month. In at least one case the pilot counldn't afford to pay for his renewal, so the company made him give up his automobile for use as a crew car.
To give up his car for use as a crew car is unheard of and I'm betting illegal. This is the kind of crap that needs to make it to the headlines in the papers as well. Far as I'm concerned, it's just as bad as Leblanc or probably worse. Who are these people 
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Holy Magenta
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It is sad that a tragedy has to be the catalyst to bring this all to ahead. But I hope it will, my thoughts and regards to victims and survivors of the accident.
This industry is abismal for many reasons. One could extrapolate on the many reasons forever, but we all have a concept of it.
So I will say that at some point this problem with solve itself. Unfortunately its gonna take lives and re-evaluation. The fact that transport lets companies like Sonic, and Nav air operate allows these places to continue with this low bidding wal-mart economy flying we have going on. Total bull shit! Its basically new age capitalism working hard on aviation. Every industry is always trying to increase profits, while costs are always going up. You see it in other industries too, but in ours, margins are so thin its ridiculous. Basically the problem will fix itself when too many people start dying that Transport has to shut down those who can't afford to run safely. Bottom line. Either that or the industry has to set a base index that everyone will charge to keep things safe enough since transport won't be strict enough with these shitty operators. Or the insurance companies step in and say sorry, can't cover you.. (although the last thing we want is insurance companies controlling the biz)
Transport has to be hard on people who arent safe. Aviation should be worth the effort. None of this nickle and dime bag run BS thats going on everywhere. Companies who are unsafe should be delt with unmercifully. Yeah I know, it sounds harsh, but somehow we have to weed out the riff raff and keep the rates high enough to pay us all equitably. If we want pilots to be paid well and proffessionally, it needs to be recognized that some people do it safer and better than others.
In AB we have Contrail audits telling companies what is required to be safe to operate. Who is good, who has enough hours. At first I really hated this. However, its gonna be great when it turns on the oil companies, because only certain people are safe enough, and soon they will pay big quan to have the permitted people work for them. They are over regulating themselves, but eventually, the pilots are gonna pull home the dime and reap the benifits.
This industry is abismal for many reasons. One could extrapolate on the many reasons forever, but we all have a concept of it.
So I will say that at some point this problem with solve itself. Unfortunately its gonna take lives and re-evaluation. The fact that transport lets companies like Sonic, and Nav air operate allows these places to continue with this low bidding wal-mart economy flying we have going on. Total bull shit! Its basically new age capitalism working hard on aviation. Every industry is always trying to increase profits, while costs are always going up. You see it in other industries too, but in ours, margins are so thin its ridiculous. Basically the problem will fix itself when too many people start dying that Transport has to shut down those who can't afford to run safely. Bottom line. Either that or the industry has to set a base index that everyone will charge to keep things safe enough since transport won't be strict enough with these shitty operators. Or the insurance companies step in and say sorry, can't cover you.. (although the last thing we want is insurance companies controlling the biz)
Transport has to be hard on people who arent safe. Aviation should be worth the effort. None of this nickle and dime bag run BS thats going on everywhere. Companies who are unsafe should be delt with unmercifully. Yeah I know, it sounds harsh, but somehow we have to weed out the riff raff and keep the rates high enough to pay us all equitably. If we want pilots to be paid well and proffessionally, it needs to be recognized that some people do it safer and better than others.
In AB we have Contrail audits telling companies what is required to be safe to operate. Who is good, who has enough hours. At first I really hated this. However, its gonna be great when it turns on the oil companies, because only certain people are safe enough, and soon they will pay big quan to have the permitted people work for them. They are over regulating themselves, but eventually, the pilots are gonna pull home the dime and reap the benifits.
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Holy Magenta
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Pilots quitting
Pilot shortage
Union
Pilots saying NO
Did I miss anything?
Nothing else will drive up wages.
And, for the record, it is my (not so humble) opinion that pilot wages NEVER killed a company. Never. There is always some other problem either internal or exogenous that did the damage. 911, airstrips killing floater outfits, the infamous "million dollar barrier" too-rapid expansion, wrong a/c for the job, no business expertise, owners looting the company, whatever.
Pilot shortage
Union
Pilots saying NO
Did I miss anything?
Nothing else will drive up wages.
And, for the record, it is my (not so humble) opinion that pilot wages NEVER killed a company. Never. There is always some other problem either internal or exogenous that did the damage. 911, airstrips killing floater outfits, the infamous "million dollar barrier" too-rapid expansion, wrong a/c for the job, no business expertise, owners looting the company, whatever.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Challenger
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Xsbank - great points - as qualified, dedicated, professionals we need solidarity as a whole and the laws in place to allow us to make a decent wage, and to work in an environment that is healthy and safe.
Stand up, look in the mirror and realize we are worth it. You are worth making a good solid wage. Minimum wage is not good enough.
Shit I could sit in front of a computer, answer emails and make as much as a captain at some of these places. Think about that. Thats a true statement.
If companies cannot afford to pay a decent wage, than shut them down. Or they should slow down and consider their business plan before hedging their employee salaries against future growth.
It's absolutely not right that owners can shaft the pilot to expand their venture.
And guess what, you cant blame these great guys for buying their ppcs. I wouldn't buy one but I know why they do.
because when the shit hits the fan, and you have creditors on your back, no money, living day to day and pressure to start making money to live up to your expectations and pay off bills- well lets just say thats where a seedy owner comes in to make a buck. That is human nature, everyone has a story.
Its not right to pay to work, but i see why it happens.
Whos to blame for these companies still operating on the back of their employees? Is it the pilots fault, no.. is it the owners, directly yes but thats not going to stop a slimey businessman - theres always more to follow. No , the problem is there is a lack of enforcement from above to stop these bastards.
Guess what, thats what law enforcement and good governement is there for. And yes, making sure aircraft are flown safely and are well maintained is the governements responsibility. Thats why we pay taxes.
I am absolutely pissed off and angry that there have seen so many accidents out of south terminal this year. I have been to a funeral this year, it breaks my heart to hear about these guys. These guys are me. there you. And they need someone to fight for their rights. Are rights.
This is 2006, these are preventable accidents with the correct systems inplace.
Innocent lives lost .... great people, great canadians have died. Our brothers.
These tragedies are not all unrelated. The industry is unhealthy out here, and needs to be cleaned up.
Aviation should be safe for pilots. I am sad to see such low morale, reading posts from pilots discussing how unsafe aviation is and contemplating getting out. And discussing what should be said to their loved ones if they go down. It is a beautiful sentament, but also a sad statement of the times.
I am with Mr. Jonathan Huggett completely, and finally feel like there may be something done. Its worth talking about.
Stand up, look in the mirror and realize we are worth it. You are worth making a good solid wage. Minimum wage is not good enough.
Shit I could sit in front of a computer, answer emails and make as much as a captain at some of these places. Think about that. Thats a true statement.
If companies cannot afford to pay a decent wage, than shut them down. Or they should slow down and consider their business plan before hedging their employee salaries against future growth.
It's absolutely not right that owners can shaft the pilot to expand their venture.
And guess what, you cant blame these great guys for buying their ppcs. I wouldn't buy one but I know why they do.
because when the shit hits the fan, and you have creditors on your back, no money, living day to day and pressure to start making money to live up to your expectations and pay off bills- well lets just say thats where a seedy owner comes in to make a buck. That is human nature, everyone has a story.
Its not right to pay to work, but i see why it happens.
Whos to blame for these companies still operating on the back of their employees? Is it the pilots fault, no.. is it the owners, directly yes but thats not going to stop a slimey businessman - theres always more to follow. No , the problem is there is a lack of enforcement from above to stop these bastards.
Guess what, thats what law enforcement and good governement is there for. And yes, making sure aircraft are flown safely and are well maintained is the governements responsibility. Thats why we pay taxes.
I am absolutely pissed off and angry that there have seen so many accidents out of south terminal this year. I have been to a funeral this year, it breaks my heart to hear about these guys. These guys are me. there you. And they need someone to fight for their rights. Are rights.
This is 2006, these are preventable accidents with the correct systems inplace.
Innocent lives lost .... great people, great canadians have died. Our brothers.
These tragedies are not all unrelated. The industry is unhealthy out here, and needs to be cleaned up.
Aviation should be safe for pilots. I am sad to see such low morale, reading posts from pilots discussing how unsafe aviation is and contemplating getting out. And discussing what should be said to their loved ones if they go down. It is a beautiful sentament, but also a sad statement of the times.
I am with Mr. Jonathan Huggett completely, and finally feel like there may be something done. Its worth talking about.
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ScudRunner
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While you guys are all pissin into the wind here id like to point something out here
Also heard from a guy that when transport was going to do a ride there, it was a mad scramble to placard everything on the plane. And that was the "good plane" they used for the ride 
This is the real topic here, how hurting of a company are you to take a guys transportation to let him fly your planes.rampgenie wrote:
Not only do you have to pay for your initial PPC at sonic, but they make you pay 2500$ to renew your PPC after a year of earning 500$ a month. In at least one case the pilot counldn't afford to pay for his renewal, so the company made him give up his automobile for use as a crew car.
Also heard from a guy that when transport was going to do a ride there, it was a mad scramble to placard everything on the plane. And that was the "good plane" they used for the ride It's been said before, but one way to stop accidents from happening is to give pilots the power to say 'no' to unsafe operators and airplanes.
Unfortunately, it's very difficult for pilots to say 'no' because they'll be out of a job, and given that the majority of pilots live paycheck to paycheck, it's difficult to save and build a financial safety cushion. Basically it's very difficult to rock the applecart knowing you have to pay rent next month or you're out on the street.
Employers can replace pilots so easily that the employee pilot doesn't have much in the way of leverage or bargaining power.
One solution is to give pilots the power to say 'no', and that can only be done through a professional association, that, among other things, closely regulates the supply of pilots.
When you have a large number of out of work pilots who will literally sell their mother to build hours (especially at the lower end), it's ripe pickings for the Sonic Blues and Regency's of the world who will exploit that in whatever way they see fit.
Unfortunately, it's very difficult for pilots to say 'no' because they'll be out of a job, and given that the majority of pilots live paycheck to paycheck, it's difficult to save and build a financial safety cushion. Basically it's very difficult to rock the applecart knowing you have to pay rent next month or you're out on the street.
Employers can replace pilots so easily that the employee pilot doesn't have much in the way of leverage or bargaining power.
One solution is to give pilots the power to say 'no', and that can only be done through a professional association, that, among other things, closely regulates the supply of pilots.
When you have a large number of out of work pilots who will literally sell their mother to build hours (especially at the lower end), it's ripe pickings for the Sonic Blues and Regency's of the world who will exploit that in whatever way they see fit.
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sprucemonkey
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Here:
I'm adding to my post as well......
1) godscrazy - I just start to "feel" for WJ (because my last flight was good) and think they ain't so bad then you come along and ruin it. Ya, I always pick AC for that very reason (salary) every time I book a commercial flight. I gotta support my relatives.
2)
Oh ya? Lets say you arrive in CY?? for your new job. You're told you fly over 1000 hrs/yr and the salary is 2000 base, 300/mo. living allowance and 0.25/sm. Great!! Your first PIC on a multi. Ya move your pregnant wife and 5yr old with you. You arrive on your first day and look through the journey log and see that the yearly total is around 450hrs. You ask why and boss says "oh, we only put half the time in the log". OK. Your first flight consists of 5 drums of jetB and full fuel to some offstrip. Hmm, seems to be 600lbs overgross there boss. "I promised the customer a C208 load every time. Besides, if YOU won't do it there's a shit load of others just like you waiting." Pressures on buddy. An inspection time comes up......"we do those ourselves. MTC is 600nm away....Too expensive....Oh, no oil or fuel filters? Don't worry 'bout it."
Its like takin' a shit and not wiping your ass.
They'll be back. Just like the company in Central Region. Sad really.Subject: Pacific: Transport Canada news release / Communiqués de presse
de
Transports Canada
The following news release is now available:
Transport Canada suspends International Express Aircharter
Ltd.'s air operator certificate - January 23, 2006
http://www.tc.gc.ca/mediaroom/releases/ ... 6-p01e.htm
Le communiqué de presse suivant est maintenant disponible:
Transports Canada suspend le certificat d'exploitation
aérienne d'International Express Aircharter Ltd. -
le 23 janvier 2006
http://www.tc.gc.ca/medias/communiques/ ... 6-p01f.htm
I'm adding to my post as well......
1) godscrazy - I just start to "feel" for WJ (because my last flight was good) and think they ain't so bad then you come along and ruin it. Ya, I always pick AC for that very reason (salary) every time I book a commercial flight. I gotta support my relatives.
2)
Exactly who holds a gun to our head to fly shit aircraft over loaded. NOBODY we do it to our self.
Oh ya? Lets say you arrive in CY?? for your new job. You're told you fly over 1000 hrs/yr and the salary is 2000 base, 300/mo. living allowance and 0.25/sm. Great!! Your first PIC on a multi. Ya move your pregnant wife and 5yr old with you. You arrive on your first day and look through the journey log and see that the yearly total is around 450hrs. You ask why and boss says "oh, we only put half the time in the log". OK. Your first flight consists of 5 drums of jetB and full fuel to some offstrip. Hmm, seems to be 600lbs overgross there boss. "I promised the customer a C208 load every time. Besides, if YOU won't do it there's a shit load of others just like you waiting." Pressures on buddy. An inspection time comes up......"we do those ourselves. MTC is 600nm away....Too expensive....Oh, no oil or fuel filters? Don't worry 'bout it."
Its like takin' a shit and not wiping your ass.
Last edited by sprucemonkey on Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dust Devil
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Why does the pilot stay then. It's his own damn fault if that happens to him.. wrote:While you guys are all pissin into the wind here id like to point something out here
This is the real topic here, how hurting of a company are you to take a guys transportation to let him fly your planes.rampgenie wrote:
Not only do you have to pay for your initial PPC at sonic, but they make you pay 2500$ to renew your PPC after a year of earning 500$ a month. In at least one case the pilot counldn't afford to pay for his renewal, so the company made him give up his automobile for use as a crew car.
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sprucemonkey
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