Flat pay and unions...

[Hangry]

What are you guys talking about. Everyone is totally consumed with how many take offs and landings they get.

[PT6onH20]

8.4 MULTI-ENGINE JET EVERY TIME I GO TO WORK SUCKERS

[Sharklasers]

What are you guys talking about. Everyone is totally consumed with how many take offs and landings they get.

I know right? Thats why the LGA turns and the 4 days of the golden triangle go so senior every month.

[scdriver]

Back in my day 70 you could live like a king!
Says guy with no degree and bought his house for $98,000 and car insurance is $85 a month

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

And explaining to folks on the AC forum how lifestyle and upgrades work on the WB side of things. Some sketchy info

[Aspiredtofly]

Could we all please keep this as a useful thread with relevant information rather than talking about how things were decades ago. Can someone mention the 4 years of flat pay for 2022, you cant just stick it out with old payrates and aggrements. We need relevant information!

You need to calm down dude. You haven't even got your licenses yet and you're actually stressing about the pay at AC.

And explaining to folks on the AC forum how lifestyle and upgrades work on the WB side of things. Some sketchy info

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

[altiplano]

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

Usually better to ask questions, or just don't say anything at all on topics you don't know anything about, rather than contributing things that are "(un)true" or "sketchy."

As you're just starting flight training you have quite a ways to go before Mainline terms and conditions should be on your radar, I'd suggest that you put your head down and get to work if you think this is something you may want to do.

[Aspiredtofly]

I'm not saying that all of the things I've mentioned are true. Im assuming it as how it should be again sorry if I'm being sketchy or skeptical about how things work here, you can correct me if I'm wrong though

Usually better to ask questions, or just don't say anything at all on topics you don't know anything about, rather than contributing things that are "(un)true" or "sketchy."

As you're just starting flight training you have quite a ways to go before Mainline terms and conditions should be on your radar, I'd suggest that you put your head down and get to work if you think this is something you may want to do.

Yes your right I should be focusing on other things now. Little anxiety crept in and I went all crazy here my bad I'm sorry...

[Ratherbe]

Hopefully flat pay gets addressed next year during our contract negotiations. However, it usually takes a back seat to other issues unfortunately. Sadly there isn’t much support to make changes for pilots that aren’t on the property yet. I think that position is shortsighted but that’s just my opinion. Also it’s not just the bargaining committee or the union - it’s the pilots themselves.

If you look at the history you can see what I mean. Many years ago, AC used to have a low 4 year flat monthly pay. It then went to 2 years starting at $39K per year until 2011. It was then bumped up to about $59K for the first year but was now a 4 year progression and paid as an hourly rate.

It seems that every 10-12 years we correct the flat pay rates so maybe next year it will get raised or maybe even eliminated entirely. Hopefully there is support.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Hopefully flat pay gets addressed next year during our contract negotiations. However, it usually takes a back seat to other issues unfortunately. Sadly there isn’t much support to make changes for pilots that aren’t on the property yet. I think that position is shortsighted but that’s just my opinion. Also it’s not just the bargaining committee or the union - it’s the pilots themselves.

If you look at the history you can see what I mean. Many years ago, AC used to have a low 4 year flat monthly pay. It then went to 2 years starting at $39K per year until 2011. It was then bumped up to about $59K for the first year but was now a 4 year progression and paid as an hourly rate.

It seems that every 10-12 years we correct the flat pay rates so maybe next year it will get raised or maybe even eliminated entirely. Hopefully there is support.

Flat pay effects everybody IMHO. It drags down the top end as well as it makes movement even harder. Seniority is a major barrier to movement between airlines as it is. Low, flat pay for 4 years just adds to that. In the US, where there is maybe 1 year of low pay, you see more movement. People with quite a few years seniority in one airline will move to another for a better base, or lifestyle, or long term pay potential. When you will earn over $200k Canadian in your 2nd year at Fedex or UPS it's not hard to give up 5-10 years seniority at another airline. When you have to endure at least 4 years of very low pay at AC, very few people with any seniority in another airline will make that move. The result is management doesn't have to worry about losing many of their more senior people no matter what they do.

[Stu Pidasso]

For those on the outside, looking in, Air Canada is an extremely Socialized Corporation (still run like a Crown Corporation) that exists in a Socialized Country. The unskilled labor is overpaid and the skilled labor in underpaid.

Welcome to the "Peoples Republic of Canukestan."

This is an Airline where the Flight Attendants are delusional enough to believe they are equal to the Pilots and should be paid accordingly. They took a run at this through an "equal pay for equal work" challenge. You can't fix - stupid.

That is unless you are at the Executive Level where all the rules change.

It is embarrassing that a Pilot would ever make less than the F/A delivering their Coffee or the Rampie loading the luggage. What happens at every Contract Negotiation is the list of improvements is through the roof, wage increase across the board, pension improvements, expenses etc.

New Hire pay falls through the cracks every time, it is not malicious but it happens.

Only way to fix it is having the application pool dry up and Pilots leaving for better paying Airlines (hope for the border to open up.)

On the up side, prior to Covid, the upgrade times were at record levels. 12 - 24 months to a Narrowbody Left Seat and those are around the corner again.

[GRK2]

Cabin Crew delivers your coffee? Oh they'll love hearing that! Better not let any of them find out who you are (if indeed you fly for a company that actually has Cabin Crew) you won't like what happens behind your self entitled backside.

[Sharklasers]

I’m not seeing the issue in what he said? Your flighties don’t deliver your coffee? He didn’t say they only make coffee. They certainly shouldn’t be paid more than the FO though.

[GRK2]

Read it again, the attitude reeks of entitlement and superiority. The argument in his post is about how much better he thinks pilots are than other members of his company. Guess again...without his cabin crew or rampies he's nobody but an arse in a seat waiting to go somewhere. There's a total lack of respect and it shows how much he merely tolerates but doesn't even come close to understanding what makes his job actually mean something. Some wonder why the senior ACPA members look down on this type? Here's one reason.

[Aspiredtofly]

One thing that I want to ask. So when pilots were furloughed due to COVID and all that, were they getting paid by the company to compensate for their living. How does this govenment funded employee compensation aid work?

[Malfunction]

Can't anyone post what a yr 5 FO makes after taxes? I understand there's many types just curious.

[NotDirty!]

Can't anyone post what a yr 5 FO makes after taxes? I understand there's many types just curious.

Year 4 pay is $87.20 per hour, for all types, for FO or RP positions.
Year 5 pay varies from $93.05 for a 787 RP, day rate, to $109.58 for an A220 FO, day rate, all the way up to $165.49 for a 777 FO, night rate. There are probably still a few year 5 pilots receiving narrow body captain pay, which is up to $228.14 per hour for an A320 CA, night rate.

For rough guesstimates, plan on about 1000 credit hours per year, half day, half night. And assume you take home half of that.

[Malfunction]

Thxs.

[rudder]

Year 2 NB FO pay at top 6 US carriers is USD$140/hr.

Just sayin.

AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.

[Col. Panic]

Year 2 NB FO pay at top 6 US carriers is USD$140/hr.

Just sayin.

AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.

Most year 2 FOs at major US carriers took home more last year than most narrow body captains at AC. Good thing the cost of living is so much less in YYZ and YVR than in ATL/DFW/etc.

[PeterParker]

I’m not seeing the issue in what he said? Your flighties don’t deliver your coffee? He didn’t say they only make coffee. They certainly shouldn’t be paid more than the FO though.

The argument we ought to make should be to pay the FOs more and not to force AC to pay the FAs less. This is why the fat cats at the top continue to get fatter while chewing all the meat off the bone of all the employees doing the real work.

[lownslow]

AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.

I always just sort of assumed they’re a big part of the reason it remains closed.

[Sharklasers]

I’m not seeing the issue in what he said? Your flighties don’t deliver your coffee? He didn’t say they only make coffee. They certainly shouldn’t be paid more than the FO though.

The argument we ought to make should be to pay the FOs more and not to force AC to pay the FAs less. This is why the fat cats at the top continue to get fatter while chewing all the meat off the bone of all the employees doing the real work.

No one is arguing for FAs to be paid less. He is saying that the other employee groups and the Canadian populace at large will not support a group of 1-2%ers striking for more. That’s why we were and will likely always be legislated back to work. The Canadian crabs in a bucket mentality. Further the company has to bargain under the threat of a ‘me too’ clause from CUPE. Which means that any gain for the pilot group has to account for the cost of passing that benefit along to the FAs. Improvements to their contracts do in fact come at a cost to ours, a 25% pay raise which would still leave us at very best average among the legacy carriers would need to be passed along to the FAs who are already at par or paid greater than their peer airlines.

LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING 35: COLA AND “ME TOO”

L35.01
In conjunction with the effective date of the annualized uplifts agreed to by the parties and set out in Article 5 of the collective agreement, wage increases will be subject to further negotiations if:
i. other bargaining agents (ACPA, ALPA, CAW, IAMAW, or CALDA) have negotiated higher percentage wage uplifts effective before the expiry of the CUPE collective agreement;
or
ii. the consumer price index of the previous year exceeds the wage increases by more than one (1.0%) percent for any of the three (3) calendar years referenced in Article 5 of the collective agreement.
Note: In the event other bargaining units achieve a higher percentage increase as a result of demonstrable productivity or work rule changes, such will be taken into consideration should further negotiation on wages be required.

https://alberta.cupe.ca/files/2020/01/C ... dacted.pdf

[schnitzel2k3]

Year 2 NB FO pay at top 6 US carriers is USD$140/hr.

Just sayin.

AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.

This. lol.

[RVR6000]

I’m not seeing the issue in what he said? Your flighties don’t deliver your coffee? He didn’t say they only make coffee. They certainly shouldn’t be paid more than the FO though.

The argument we ought to make should be to pay the FOs more and not to force AC to pay the FAs less. This is why the fat cats at the top continue to get fatter while chewing all the meat off the bone of all the employees doing the real work.

No one is arguing for FAs to be paid less. He is saying that the other employee groups and the Canadian populace at large will not support a group of 1-2%ers striking for more. That’s why we were and will likely always be legislated back to work. The Canadian crabs in a bucket mentality. Further the company has to bargain under the threat of a ‘me too’ clause from CUPE. Which means that any gain for the pilot group has to account for the cost of passing that benefit along to the FAs. Improvements to their contracts do in fact come at a cost to ours, a 25% pay raise which would still leave us at very best average among the legacy carriers would need to be passed along to the FAs who are already at par or paid greater than their peer airlines.

Did the FA pay rates take a massive hit in 2012? Did they ‘me-too’ the pay hits we took across the board for all FO and RP positions?

The companies negotiation with other labour unions shouldn’t be any of our concern.

[TheStig]

Year 2 NB FO pay at top 6 US carriers is USD$140/hr.

Just sayin.

AC better hope the border never opens for pilots.

Most year 2 FOs at major US carriers took home more last year than most narrow body captains at AC. Good thing the cost of living is so much less in YYZ and YVR than in ATL/DFW/etc.

The latest bid at Delta awarded 737 NYC Captain to a November 2021 Hire. $261USD/Hour or just over $330 Canadian pesos.