Colour Vision and Air Canada

[dangerous]

Another reason for the higher standards is that TC doesn't care if you ever lose your medical for some reason. Having a pilot retire at 40 because of a medical issue is a huge cost.

So do people ever lose their medicals at AC because their glasses get too thick (even though they can see perfectly with glasses)? If someone was going thru the initial AC medical, would thick glasses set off the alarm bells with the hiring committee?

[bobcaygeon]

Why not have higher standards? It's not their job to provide employment to you. It's not your rite. The military in canada used to have a policy of no corrected vision for pilots when they started.

You don't have to pass a drug test to get a CAT1, does that mean at AC you shouldn't have to either??

Hell, a bag guy has to pass a drug test!!!

TC sets a minimum standard only. I may have an ATR but still can't fly worth a shit (or be a knob) (no comments from the ywg clowns)and not pass a sim eval. Should I be able sue because of that too?? I met TC's standards on my last ride.

AC is pretty reasonable over all and there are many major airlines in this world that are far more discriminatory (Cathay, Emirates, etc)

[CARO]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think as a private company, AC can set whatever limits it wants as long as they meet the minimum required by TC. There are no requirements by TC to do Psych tests and yet AC does them. I don't see anyone being sued for that. Anyway, I don't think the eye test would be the problem in your case. In reading your post, there seem to be other issues.

A) AC is a public company

B) AC may not set whatever limits they choose due to anti-discriminatory laws

C) TC does have psychological standards for aviation medicals

Your argument has no merit.

[gr8gazu]

Anybody have any idea
if the A/C color test disqualifys a person?

Change your color preference from red to teal and your worries will go away!

[tonysoprano]

CARO.
OK let me try a different english.

A) AC is a private company (not government owned) that is publicly traded on the market.

B) As such AC may set up whatever selection process it wants following regulatory guidlines. Last time I checked, discrimination against color blindness is not illegal. If it were, AC would be in court quite often.

C) TC has psych tests? Standards and tests are two different things. TC does not subject you to a test for a Cat 1 medical. AC does as do many airlines all over the world.

Again I want to stress that AC's requirements are above TC's and as long as no law is broken (and this has been going on for years so I assume laws are not being broken) they can do as they wish. Airlines all over the world have their own selection process not just AC. AC has been taken to court and lost on certain occasions so attempting to sue may have its merits but not always successful. It all depends on the details. Our medical department is not just for flight operations but also for the rest of the departments and although it may be expensive to operate, I am told they are worth keeping around. Hope that helps a little.

[CARO]

B) As such AC may set up whatever selection process it wants following regulatory guidlines. Last time I checked, discrimination against color blindness is not illegal. If it were, AC would be in court quite often.

I was not implying discrimination against colorblindness is illegal. I simply meant that AC may not set up whatever selection process they choose. As you stated they are subject to regulatory guidelines. However, it seems ironic that TC's standards (our regulating body) are not good enough for AC. Maybe TC needs to raise medical standards for pilots working in the higher echelons.

C) TC has psych tests? Standards and tests are two different things. TC does not subject you to a test for a Cat 1 medical. AC does as do many airlines all over the world.

Did I say TC has psych tests? They have standards, but tell me how you assess whether someone meets a standard without testing them? A CAME may request psychological testing for even a CAT 3 medical if they believe it to be necessary.

I think the real problem here is the "I work for Air Canada and you don't" mentality of some AC employees.

[tonysoprano]

CARO.
YOU obviously need to learn alot about this industry. Go to any other major airline in the world and see if things are done any differently. If you think AC has a problem, you also better blame British, Lufthansa, Alitalia, Air France, American........

[CARO]

I am indeed learning lots. Thanks for the tip.


If I may be so bold as to give you a tip, you need to learn about people.

[tonysoprano]

Don't take it too seriously kid. Have fun. Keep the blue side up and for God's sake DON'T touch any of those big buttons. I like my coffee black. How am I doing so far?

[CARO]

Not bad, but who you calling kid, punk.

[Traf]

I believe he called you the kid.

I hate to say it, but I agree with tony here. Why should AC be forced to hire some walleye visioned, blind mofo just because TC will let him/her fly? It is not discrimination to pick the best qualified for a job. I know Canada has become a bunch of Liberal minded, easily offended pussies but a privately owned company should be allowed whomever they want based on whatever qualifications they set as guidelines.

Would you hire a one legged man to be a shoe model? Not likely.

[tonysoprano]

The AC medical dep. will do its best to keep pilots/employees employed. But if there is a potential problem right from the start, they may frown upon it. Its what management expects. It could pose problems down the line. Big bucks. We have pilots on sick leave who have not sat in an AC airplane for years. Again it all depends on circumstances which is something the TC medical does not take into account. Stay healthy boys and girls. I should know. Not in the best health myself.

[CARO]

Traf, you miss my point, as does tonysoprano. No matter, the day I lift a finger (other than my middle one) for AC is the day I shoot myself in the head.

[Traf]

Wow, you're so cool. Do us (and the sheep) a favour and pull trigger.

[CARO]

OK let me try a different english.

Do us (and the sheep) a favour and pull trigger.

Apparently literacy isn't a requirement for all AC employees.

Would you hire a one legged man to be a shoe model? Not likely.

Actually if the one legged man had a sexy leg, you could Photoshop the image to make him a perfectly suitable two legged model.

[pilohock]

Hey guys,

I recently did my first air canada medical and I failed the colour blind test on this machine they have you look into....they had the ishihara plates on it...for some reason it was much harder for me using that machine versus the booklet with the original plates that my medical doctor tests me with. I only saw one number out of the 4 plates they presented to me!! Anyway, the nurse said "come with me, i have an other machine for you"...so she gave me an older machine and this time no ishsihara plates it had letters or something...so I did well on it... She also said that others claim the newer machine was difficult for them..but how difficult was it for them in comparison to how i found it difficult? i do not know.

I did it at their building at CYUL...i wonder if others have struggled like I did.

[full_flaps]

will AC give someone the Farnsworth. D-15 D-15 on the spot if they cannot pass the ishihara plate test?? I can't see past the 2nd page on the ishihara but ace the Farnsworth.

Any recent experiences?

[bcflyer]

B) As such AC may set up whatever selection process it wants following regulatory guidlines. Last time I checked, discrimination against color blindness is not illegal. If it were, AC would be in court quite often.

I was not implying discrimination against colorblindness is illegal. I simply meant that AC may not set up whatever selection process they choose. As you stated they are subject to regulatory guidelines. However, it seems ironic that TC's standards (our regulating body) are not good enough for AC. Maybe TC needs to raise medical standards for pilots working in the higher echelons.

I think the real problem here is the "I work for Air Canada and you don't" mentality of some AC employees.

TC's standards (our regulating body) are so far behind the rest of the world its embarrasing. AC has stricter limitations for duty days and flight time limitations as well. Is that a bad thing?

Just so you know, those AC pilots that you appear to dislike so much are the ones pushing to get Ottawa to change the CARS duty and flight time regulations (for all pilots in Canada, not just those in the "higher echelons") to something more in line with other countries. (Your welcome)

[Bajan Pilot]

You make it sound as though it is only the AC pilots that are pushing for change. I know ALPA is very much at the front of this battle also.

[bcflyer]

You make it sound as though it is only the AC pilots that are pushing for change. I know ALPA is very much at the front of this battle also.

Glad to hear it. I have to say however that this is the first I have heard of ALPA pushing for better duty limitations in Canada.

[Raymond Hall]

Here is the legal constriction:

Canadian Human Rights Act

PROSCRIBED DISCRIMINATION

3. (1) For all purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted.

...

10. It is a discriminatory practice for an employer, employee organization or employer organization

(a) to establish or pursue a policy or practice, or

(b) to enter into an agreement affecting recruitment, referral, hiring, promotion, training, apprenticeship, transfer or any other matter relating to employment or prospective employment,

that deprives or tends to deprive an individual or class of individuals of any employment opportunities on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

------------------

Upshot: One standard for everyone, for both hiring and continued employment, namely Transport Canada medical requirements. If Transport Canada says that you are medically qualified, that is the end of the issue.

P.S. The statute came into effect in 1978.

[Rockie]

You make it sound as though it is only the AC pilots that are pushing for change. I know ALPA is very much at the front of this battle also.

Glad to hear it. I have to say however that this is the first I have heard of ALPA pushing for better duty limitations in Canada.

ALPA and other pilot groups in Canada have been pushing for reformed F&DT regulations for many years while Air Canada pilots have never been all that interested because their contractual agreement was better. Now that Air Canada is pushing more toward CAR's limits the Air Canada pilots have all of a sudden seen the light and are lending their weight to the fight.

That's a very good thing but make no mistake they are late comers to the game, not the trail blazers. It's also somewhat egotistical of them to think just because they're involved and the issue is once again at CARAC things will change. This has all been done long before Air Canada pilots got involved and is nothing new to the real veterans of this fight.

The only impetus TC would have had to change the regulations is wholesale reform of the FAA rules. But now the FAA is backing away from change thanks to diminishing memory of the Colgan crash and increasingly vehement opposition to change from the American industry. Without radical change in the US putting Canada in an embarrassing position there is no hope in hell of change up here despite ACPA's confidence.

I wish I was wrong, but my opinion is based on 100% consistent history.